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Author Topic: Youth Left Behind  (Read 13783 times)

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2014, 05:58:54 AM »
I'm a large advocate of youth...

However, I don't agree they should receive more permits or tags.

Animal harvest is a zero sum game: when one group gets more, another group gets less. Youth get more: who gets less? Do you take the permits away from seniors who've hunted and supported the state for 50 years? Do you take them away from disabled hunters? Which user group gets hit: modern, muzzleloader, or archery?

If I were to give more permits to any group, it would be seniors. The youth have a whole lifetime ahead of them; seniors don't.

Young hunters need to be taught that hunting is far more than killing and harvest. If they don't understand that, they will not be lifelong hunters anyway.

They also need to be taught that every animal is worthwhile: buck, doe, fawn.

My son has hunted with me since age seven. He has killed a few deer, and I'm thrilled that he has. He's drawn one youth permit (which he didn't fill), and one regular permit (which he didn't fill either.) 

Flame on.

Pretty much what I am thinking.

Offline Jingles

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2014, 06:13:13 AM »
From experience of what I have seen in the woods Dad's and some Mom's take their kids hunting so Dad or mom can shoot a doe. The kids gets the permit and mom or dad fill it. On three different occasions I have witnessed the parent (adult) shoot the deer then brag how the kid did, So no I don't feel sorry that they did not increase the number of permits for the youth
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2014, 06:14:24 AM »
From experience of what I have seen in the woods Dad's and some Mom's take their kids hunting so Dad or mom can shoot a doe. The kids gets the permit and mom or dad fill it. On three different occasions I have witnessed the parent (adult) shoot the deer then brag how the kid did, So no I don't feel sorry that they did not increase the number of permits for the youth

...and what a terrible lesson for the child to learn early in their hunting career.  :bash:
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline mhbrewster71

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2014, 09:35:39 AM »
Thank you all for your responses. I truly appreciate it. When speaking of muley country, I am mainly speaking of Douglas County area. Maybe looking at a 2 point or better for youth and disabled would be appropriate? In recent years I have witnessed large 2 points chase off smaller 3's and 4's when the 2's had their "harem" at the wait. As for youth  of today seeming to be entitled, I would say that is a personal perception, rather than a fact. I am a school teacher and have been so for nearly 20 years. Have I witnessed students have a sense of entitlement-you bet. Have I witnessed students who feel like they have to work 10 times harder than the rest just to get by-you bet. It's the same with adults, so singling out youth as feeling a sense of entitlement doesn't seem like a fair statement.

Someone posted that the comment period for changes in DFW for youth is well past. I agree. I, along with several of my friends, made these comments on DFW's survey, to no avail. And I totally agree that our seniors and disabled should get a large allotment of the cow permits (and maybe even allowed to harvest a few 2 point bucks). My father is disabled, a senior, and a veteran. I was just running some numbers, looking at total elk permits available for seniors: 252 total this year. Last year around 5000 seniors applied for those permits. Odds of drawing 1 in 20. For the disabled, 91 permits available this year. Around 3150 applied for those last year. Odds in drawing: 1 in 35. For youth elk there are 46 permits available. Last year 4,232 youth applied for those. Odds in drawing 1 in 92.

There was another reply that stated which user groups would we pull the extra cow permits from? 10% of the increase of cow permits is right around 180.  Personally, I'd be more than happy to give 120 of those to the disabled and the seniors, and the other 60 to the youth (which is 14 more than they are offered currently, pushing their total to 106). Would taking 60 cow permits from each user group (archery, muzzleloader and rifle) have made that much of an impact? I'm not sure?

Another user made a statement "Young hunters need to be taught that hunting is far more than killing and harvest. If they don't understand that, they will not be lifelong hunters anyway." I totally agree. It is way more than the harvest of an animal-time with family, friends, being outdoors, the respect of wildlife and land owners. Teaching ethics and morals. Building life long traditions and memories. As outdoorsmen, we all started somewhere, and something in our souls triggered this life long connection to the outdoors, being thoughtful conservationists and hunters.

In regards to another comment-And, for those adults who go out and harvest an animal and have children tag it, or claim it, and make up stories, they aren't true conservationists, outdoorsmen, and hunters. Their ethics and morals are non-existent. The lessons they teach youth when doing this are poor, and part of the reason we as hunters are always under scrutiny by the non-hunting public.

Thank you pianoman. It was good to hear your perspectives.

And, I'm not sure what "flame on" means in a positive or negative sense? But I'll keep working for the benefit of OUR youth.

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2014, 09:53:19 AM »
I have contemplated a two point hunt for youth as a solution for the "problem" we might have with too many twos surviving, if there is such a thing.  I am not sure if I would go as far as making it an additional hunt(tag), or open to all two points and youth.  That seems a bit much.   This world is full of everyone wanting the creme and then more creme.   I think there are some options here for management and for some good, but people including the department tend to be greedy so I am skeptical.

Offline Special T

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2014, 09:57:28 AM »
"Flame ON" is a term used to invite people to disagree in a vocal matter.

Normally it would involve someone calling Bob names like bunny hugger, hippy, liberal or some other colorful name.  :chuckle:

Flaming normally happens when some one is too lazy or not articulate enough to make a case for/against but feels the need to chime in because thier oppinion is so important.  :twocents:
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline DoubleJ

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2014, 11:45:28 AM »
I have contemplated a two point hunt for youth as a solution for the "problem" we might have with too many twos surviving, if there is such a thing.  I am not sure if I would go as far as making it an additional hunt(tag), or open to all two points and youth.  That seems a bit much.   This world is full of everyone wanting the creme and then more creme.   I think there are some options here for management and for some good, but people including the department tend to be greedy so I am skeptical.

If you ever get around the Brewster area, I will give you directions to a place, just east of the Central Ferry State Wildlife Area to go see anywhere from 12-20 or so mulie bucks, 250lb big bodied bruisers with forkie antlers no thicker than a Sharpie marker.  It's the only deer in that area.  Anything bigger has been shot out of there.  If anyone can find something bigger in that area, you can and I'd like to see if it's possible.  For that area, I am all for a 2pt tag for youths.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2014, 12:22:05 PM »
And MH, welcome to the site.  :tup:
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Colville

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2014, 01:53:35 PM »
I’m a father of three.  My son has been coming on hunts since he was 7, he’ll have his first license this year at 11.  My youngest daughter is 8 and is tagging along on an August bear hunt for the first time this year and my oldest daughter 13 announced that she wants to come deer hunting in October. 

I have two opinions.  First, the state can’t create by tags a love for this sport that isn’t already either innate in the child or grown through the love of family and the outdoors handed to them by their parents.  The state can’t take that love from them either, no matter what rules they put in place.  The allocation of tags is not really the basis of growing hunting in our youth. The real problem is the lack of introduction because of the hurdles of opportunity, proximity, expense and experienced adults to show them how.  My son has hunted in the dark tangled woods of the NE corner with me, well off roads sitting freezing in the snow in November without a tag.  I’ve talked with him about some of the youth, second deer tags and agg land permits available and his interest level in those permits.  He says this:  “well, maybe if after we really hunt we could do that”.   Tags aren’t the problem or solution to youth introduction.

The people least likely to need any assistance getting their kids engaged, because they are dedicated hunters and outdoorsmen, often are the ones wanting extra shots at filling the family freezer with youth opportunity. I will benefit from this, though I’m not asking for it. Want to improve introduction; start a mentoring/partnership program, align depredation permits with new hunters in that program, reduce or waive license fees for participants for the first year they obtain a license.  Lower the real bars to hunting. Struggle is only a bar to recruiting hunters because we’ve caved to instant gratification, something we should mightily fight against.

The second, when it comes to public resources I lean towards being a wildlife libertarian.  The resource is ours equally and I can’t come up with a good reason to provide disproportionate opportunity to one citizen over another.  Why should my neighbor get worse draw odds because he and his wife couldn’t have children?  I do waiver from that somewhat, and without a proper logic, when it comes to disability.

Offline PA BEN

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2014, 05:22:43 AM »
talking to some of these guys and gals about lifting antler restrictions for youth is like trying to tell Rosie O'Donnell to put the spoon down.  :bdid:  Good luck, I hope someday it will be lifted for youth, seniors and disabled here in 121 also.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 06:53:21 AM by PA BEN »

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2014, 05:48:44 AM »
All due respects Ben, why stop at youth, senior, and disabled? Why not vets, active duty, gingers, the liberally impaired, and the mentally challenged (redundant?)? Assuming the antler restrictions are in place because of a decision based on conservation goals and principles, why would they want to make an exception for anyone? If the critters are in trouble and need to have antler restrictions to restore their numbers, no one should take them.

I'm all for making a great experience for our youth to get them started off right. But that doesn't include throwing conservation out the window because you feel obligated to or compassionate toward a specific group. Figure out another way to keep them interested. I didn't get my first deer until I was 16. It made it all the sweeter when it happened.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline PA BEN

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2014, 05:22:04 AM »
WOW, take a pill man. Unless you have taken one of these groups out hunting you will never understand. This thread is about youth being left behind and I believe they are.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2014, 06:18:35 AM »
I don't need a pill, Ben, but thanks for the offer. I do more in shooting and the outdoors with other peoples' kids than many do with their own. So I have plenty of experience there.

If a wildlife population is stressed, it makes no sense to make exceptions from restrictions designed to recover the population. I see you disagree. In my opinion, there are already far too many wildlife decisions in WA which are made on emotion and not science - like the wolf program. When wildlife management decisions are made using science, we should support them.

Youth may well be being left behind in hunting, but ignoring scientific wildlife management isn't the right way to address it.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline PA BEN

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2014, 06:51:40 AM »
It's great we can agree to disagree. :tup: I see first hand all the deer that get hit on 395 between Chewelah and Colville. I know the pressure that was put on the Game Dept. to do this was from local Modern fire arm hunter groups who started open meetings in Chewelah back in the '90's w/the county commissioners. When they got big money guys on their side that's when wdfw started to listen. We bow hunters went to these meetings and got run off because we had a great season and they wanted to take it away from us. The last meeting I went to they where bashing muzzle loader hunters and I spoke up and said hay guys we as hunters need to stick together. It's about our kids the future hunters and what's best for us all as hunters. That's when the leader of the group chewed me out because I was a bow hunter. I did point out the fact that he has shown me all the big buck racks he has shot on Rights Mt. just south of Chewelah and that he had no problem shooting big deer. Then he really blew his stack, I looked around the room and said if this is the kind of leader you want you can have it, I'm done and left. The meeting before that one my buddy who is a bow hunter walked up to the front table after they went on this bow hunter bashing season and set his bow on the table and said you lay your 300 H&H mag. next to it and tell me what I need to take off my bow to make it equal to you 300 H&H? :chuckle: Then he said "O, that's right you might get lucky when you step out of your truck to take a leak and see a deer to shoot."  :tup: He grabbed his bow and walked out. 

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Youth Left Behind
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2014, 07:16:35 AM »
The pitting of hunter groups against each other seems to be a favorite pastime of the DFW. I absolutely understand your anger.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

 


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