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Author Topic: Newbie reloading question  (Read 4912 times)

Offline Jolten

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Newbie reloading question
« on: April 21, 2018, 07:39:10 PM »
Reloading 165gr Sierra hpbt Gamekings and figured I'd give varget a try instead of blc2.

Looking at Sierra's manual it says max load of varget is 43gr for 2700fps.

Hodgens reloading website States for a 165gr bullet 46gr is max for 2700fps.


3grs difference for the same speed rating seems pretty wide of a stretch.

If I worked up from 41.5gr in .5gr increments would it be safe to go above 43?
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Offline hogslayer

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2018, 08:05:09 PM »
Yes. It could be the difference in breathing surface.  I only use manuals for a starting place. I run up tell I hit pressure and that’s max.  Most loads I have found accurate are 1-2 grains below max.  Not book max. Your rifle max.  Are you loading to magazine length or can you load longer to .020 or so off rifling?

Offline Jolten

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2018, 08:24:07 PM »
Currently I'm set up to have .015 jumps to the lands based off what my blc2 was. (Using a bullet comparator)
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Offline hunter399

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2018, 08:26:33 PM »
Sometimes when there is diffrent loading data for the same powder and bullet I split the difference for max would be 44.5gr.
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Offline jasnt

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2018, 08:56:18 PM »
Could be seating depth, bearing surface, brass.....
Your rifle will tell you when to stop

http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html
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Offline bobcat

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 09:14:29 PM »
Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.

Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)

And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.

Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.

I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.

Offline Jolten

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 09:35:22 PM »
Savage 10T .308 win caliber. 20" bull barrel 5R rifling.

Sierra 165gr hpbt Gamekings
Winchester Brass
CCI Br2 primers.

I don't think I should be hitting 2700 as I believe a 24" barrel is used by Sierra. But 2600 maybe? I've read 25fps loss for each inch less of barrel.
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Offline blackpowderhunter

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 09:38:03 PM »
definitely start on the lower end and work up with a chrono..
the load i just finished up with today was the most accurate, but slower than what the nosler manual said it should be...and less than max.
just keep an eye on the brass, and bolt lift.
every rifle is different and lots of gun powder and a primer in a confined space is not something to guess with.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 10:15:03 PM »
Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.

Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)

And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.

Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.

I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.

Not sure if I follow you when your saying velocity is pressure.  Take a round with any of the Hogdon powders and see where your max velocity is. Then try it with a double base powder such as Reloader or Vhitavouri and it will be much higher.  Bolt lift, flat primers, ejector marks are signs I look for pressure.

Offline blackpowderhunter

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 10:47:44 PM »
Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.

Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)

And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.

Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.
my most recent load build up i was hoping for 3100+ fps but 3050 proved most accurate.  primers looked good, bolt lift was easy, and most important of all it was accurate. i might have to adjust my zero a little bit, but id rather do that than stretch brass life and safety.

I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.

Not sure if I follow you when your saying velocity is pressure.  Take a round with any of the Hogdon powders and see where your max velocity is. Then try it with a double base powder such as Reloader or Vhitavouri and it will be much higher.  Bolt lift, flat primers, ejector marks are signs I look for pressure.
i think people get too hung up on velocity.
accuracy kills more than velocity.  i agree.  watch bolt lift and brass.  i'd give up 100 fps for longer brass life and overall safer conditions.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 11:36:18 PM »
What I'm saying is that if your loads are exceeding the pressure tested loads in the manuals, then you've got excessive pressure. The traditional signs of excessive pressure are likely to not show up until you're well over max pressure.

To be safe, you shouldn't be going over the max powder charge in your manual, and also don't go over the max book velocity if you happen to hit that velocity before you get to the max book charge. That's assuming your data is using the same bullet.

Now, if you don't have a chronograph, I would suggest never going over the max charge shown in your book. Because again, the traditional pressure signs that people use just are not that reliable.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 01:15:21 AM »
John Barsness explains it better than I do.

Read the article beginning on page 68 here:

http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Load_Development_May_11.pdf

Or here's part of it:

Quote
Another  common  misconcep tion  is  that  case  separations  are caused  by  excessive  pressure. Well,  no.  Over  the  decades  I’ve encountered a number of cartridge cases that were the victims of  hot  loads.  Some  had  odd marks  on  the  case  head,  while others  had  primer  pockets  large enough for two primers – though no  trace  of  a  primer  was  left  in the  hole.  Yet  none  of  these  cases showed the shiny ring of stretching,  and  their  bodies  hadn’t cracked  anywhere.  Instead,  case separations  are  caused  by  (you guessed it) excessive headspace. Now,  often  cases  with  a  shiny ring  in  front  of  the  case  head,  or actual  cracks  in  the  same  area, also  have  flattened  primers,  supposedly a classic sign of high pressure. I hate to break the news, but flat primers aren’t necessarily an indication of high pressure, or even a very good sign.

The  primer  myth  has  been around long enough that Gen. Julian  Hatcher  warned  against  it way back in 1947, when his book Hatcher’s Notebook was first published.  (This  is  one  of  the  basic texts  of  rifles  and ammunition, even today, and every serious shooter  should  own  a  copy.) Early in the chapter on headspace,  Hatcher  discusses  wildcat cartridges:  “Usually  the  originator of one of these cartridges had no  facilities  for  taking  pressures, and depended entirely on the notoriously  unreliable   [emphasis mine]  method  of  judging  pressures  by  the  appearance  of  the primer.” But myths are much harder to kill than create, so some  handloaders  continue  to believe  they  can  divine  pressure from a primer.

When  a  rifle  cartridge  goes  off, the  primer  is  pushed  backward, due  to  powder  gas  pushing through  the  flash-hole,  so  it would seem to make sense that a really  flat  primer  indicates  high pressure.  Not  necessarily. A  really  flat  primer  can also  be caused  by  slightly  excessive headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it drives the case forward. If  there’s  a  little  slop  between case and chamber, the expanding  powder  gas  first pushes  the  primer  backward  in the primer pocket. If the pressure is  low  enough,  as  with  the  .30-30 Winchester,  the  primers  will remain  slightly  backed  out  of  the fired  brass.  This  is  common  in ancient and well-worn .30-30 lever actions.

If  the  pressure  is  higher,  however,  as  with  the  .30-06,  the  rear of the primer itself expands a little  as  it  backs  out,  since  it’s  no longer  supported  by  the  primer pocket.  In another  micro-second the case itself is thrust back over the slightly expanded primer. At  the  same  time,  the  case stretches a little bit, so the handloader  also  finds  a  shiny  ring  a half-inch in front of the case head.  Our  innocent  handloader now sees what he thinks are two signs  of  high  pressure,  when  in reality  the only  problem  is  oversizing the case. Primer  cups  also  vary  in  thickness  and  hardness  not  just  from brand to brand, but lot to lot. Add tiny differences in headspace,  and  trying  to  “estimate” pressures  from  primer appearance  is  like  trying  to  make shrimp jambalaya out of tofu and spinach.

Now,  the  case  itself  can  show signs  of  excessive  pressure.  One of  the  virtues  of  brass  is  that  up to  a  certain  pressure  it  remains flexible,  returning  near  its  original shape even after an instant of very  high pressure.  This  is  why brass  is  used  in  cartridge  cases: The brass expands firmly against the chamber walls as the powder gas  expands,  sealing  the  chamber.  But  if  subjected  to  “excessive” pressure, brass doesn’t spring back after firing. Instead it starts to flow.

The first sign of excessive pressure is a small imprint on the case  head  from  the  ejector  slot hole in the bolt face. This can be misleading,  however,  especially in a new rifle, due to a little ridge left by machining around the
edge of the ejector hole. This ridge  will  eventually  wear  away with use, but initially it can leave a definite mark on brass even when firing factory ammunition. Today’s  brass  is  often  hard enough that signs of real distress
don’t appear until the pressure is over  70,000  psi,  above  the  long term  limit  of  modern  rifle  steels.
So even if your brass doesn’t show ejector-hole marks, it doesn’t mean the load is safe, no matter  what  your  cousin  Elrod claims.

One  of  the  classic  examples  is  the  7mm  STW,  originally developed as a wildcat. Many early  users  of  the  STW  claimedthey could push 140-grain bullets3,500 to 3,600 fps without any traditional  sign  of  excessive  pressure  –  and  they  were  right.  But when the folks at Remington tested their loads, they found pressures of 70,000+ psi, the reason  factory  7mm  STW  ballistics were toned down considerably.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:29:49 AM by bobcat »

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 05:44:42 AM »
John Barsness explains it better than I do.

Read the article beginning on page 68 here:

http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Load_Development_May_11.pdf

Or here's part of it:

Quote
Another  common  misconcep tion  is  that  case  separations  are caused  by  excessive  pressure. Well,  no.  Over  the  decades  I’ve encountered a number of cartridge cases that were the victims of  hot  loads.  Some  had  odd marks  on  the  case  head,  while others  had  primer  pockets  large enough for two primers – though no  trace  of  a  primer  was  left  in the  hole.  Yet  none  of  these  cases showed the shiny ring of stretching,  and  their  bodies  hadn’t cracked  anywhere.  Instead,  case separations  are  caused  by  (you guessed it) excessive headspace. Now,  often  cases  with  a  shiny ring  in  front  of  the  case  head,  or actual  cracks  in  the  same  area, also  have  flattened  primers,  supposedly a classic sign of high pressure. I hate to break the news, but flat primers aren’t necessarily an indication of high pressure, or even a very good sign.

The  primer  myth  has  been around long enough that Gen. Julian  Hatcher  warned  against  it way back in 1947, when his book Hatcher’s Notebook was first published.  (This  is  one  of  the  basic texts  of  rifles  and ammunition, even today, and every serious shooter  should  own  a  copy.) Early in the chapter on headspace,  Hatcher  discusses  wildcat cartridges:  “Usually  the  originator of one of these cartridges had no  facilities  for  taking  pressures, and depended entirely on the notoriously  unreliable   [emphasis mine]  method  of  judging  pressures  by  the  appearance  of  the primer.” But myths are much harder to kill than create, so some  handloaders  continue  to believe  they  can  divine  pressure from a primer.

When  a  rifle  cartridge  goes  off, the  primer  is  pushed  backward, due  to  powder  gas  pushing through  the  flash-hole,  so  it would seem to make sense that a really  flat  primer  indicates  high pressure.  Not  necessarily.  A  really  flat  primer  can  also  be caused  by  slightly  excessive headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it drives the case forward.  If  there’s  a  little  slop  between case and chamber, the expanding  powder  gas  first
pushes  the  primer  backward  in the primer pocket. If the pressure is  low  enough,  as  with  the  .30-30
Winchester,  the  primers  will  remain  slightly  backed  out  of  the fired  brass.  This  is  common  in ancient and well-worn .30-30 lever actions.

If  the  pressure  is  higher,  however,  as  with  the  .30-06,  the  rear of the primer itself expands a little  as  it  backs  out,  since  it’s  no longer  supported  by  the  primer pocket.  In another  micro-second the case itself is thrust back over the slightly expanded primer. At  the  same  time,  the  case stretches a little bit, so the handloader  also  finds  a  shiny  ring  a half-inch in front of the case head.  Our  innocent  handloader now sees what he thinks are two signs  of  high  pressure,  when  in reality  the only  problem  is  oversizing the case. Primer  cups  also  vary  in  thickness  and  hardness  not  just  from brand to brand, but lot to lot. Add tiny differences in headspace,  and  trying  to  “estimate” pressures  from  primer appearance  is  like  trying  to  make shrimp jambalaya out of tofu and spinach.

Now,  the  case  itself  can  show signs  of  excessive  pressure.  One of  the  virtues  of  brass  is  that  up to  a  certain  pressure  it  remains flexible,  returning  near  its  original shape even after an instant of very  high pressure.  This  is  why brass  is  used  in  cartridge  cases: The brass expands firmly against the chamber walls as the powder gas  expands,  sealing  the  chamber.  But  if  subjected  to  “excessive” pressure, brass doesn’t spring back after firing. Instead it starts to flow.

The first sign of excessive pressure is a small imprint on the case  head  from  the  ejector  slot hole in the bolt face. This can be misleading,  however,  especially in a new rifle, due to a little ridge left by machining around the
edge of the ejector hole. This ridge  will  eventually  wear  away with use, but initially it can leave a definite mark on brass even when firing factory ammunition. Today’s  brass  is  often  hard enough that signs of real distress
don’t appear until the pressure is over  70,000  psi,  above  the  long term  limit  of  modern  rifle  steels.
So even if your brass doesn’t show ejector-hole marks, it doesn’t mean the load is safe, no matter  what  your  cousin  Elrod claims.

One  of  the  classic  examples  is  the  7mm  STW,  originally developed as a wildcat. Many early  users  of  the  STW  claimedthey could push 140-grain bullets3,500 to 3,600 fps without any traditional  sign  of  excessive  pressure  –  and  they  were  right.  But when the folks at Remington tested their loads, they found pressures of 70,000+ psi, the reason  factory  7mm  STW  ballistics were toned down considerably.


That was a good read Bobcat, thanks for posting that. 

I agree with Blackpowderhunter, velocity is great if thats an accuracy node for your rifle.  I don’t concern myself with velocity especially when a load is shooting well under MOA.  I don’t believe I’ve ever ran a ladder test beyond max book load, I’ve never needed to so far without finding accuracy first. 

MAGA

Hey Slobbering JOE,

 STOP the freaking INVASION

Offline Fl0und3rz

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 07:45:16 AM »
44 grains of H Varget is what I ended up with, using a 46 grain max from Nosler reloading data for 165 Partitions and Accubonds.  Incidentally, this was what Nosler was indicating as their "accuracy" load, with a 98% case fill and where 46 grains was indicated as a compressed load.

I was shooting a Ruger M77 MkII All Weather with milsurp brass..  IIRC, there were also people that were saying they were having similar success at 44 grains with the 165s.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 09:11:37 AM »
Thanks all for the input! I appreciate it
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2018, 11:43:57 AM »
How can velocity be a sign of pressure? Short barrels, long barrels, cut rifling vs button, number of grooves, lapped or not, difference in throats, how many rounds have been fired...etc. too many variables for velocity to be even close to a pressure indicator.

Bolt lift, brass mark or over expansion, primer appearance etc. seem pretty reliable.
Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with too many facts.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 12:22:06 PM »
I feel they are all tools no one should be more important than the rest.  You have to look at all the variables.  I've seen slow loads with preasure signs and hard bolt lift. I've seen smoking fast loads that had no sign of over preasure. 
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Offline bobcat

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 12:57:27 PM »
More pressure equals more velocity. I'm no expert, I only go by what I read from people who have more experience and knowledge than I do. In this case, John Barsness. If you're interested do a search for something like "pressure and velocity Barsness."

What you will find is that John Barsness recommends not relying on all the traditional signs of excessive pressure, as those things are not reliable indicators. If you see those pressure signs, you've often already gone way too far into dangerous territory.

According to him the best tool for a handloader in working up a load is a chronograph, and as I already said, you stop when you reach the max book charge, OR when you reach the max book velocity, whichever comes first.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 02:46:29 PM »
On my first facotry rifle I found best accuracy at 3 grains over book max.  1.5 grains under actual max.  Brass lasted 8 firings before pockets got loose. My custom chamber is 7 grains over book max. Found pressure at 8.5 grains over book. I have also had tight barrels that hit pressure sooner. Some barrel companies such as Broughton are known for making faster barrels with there canted lands. Not trying to be a jerk, but you can believe what you have read, and I’ll believe what I have done.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 03:09:38 PM »
On my first facotry rifle I found best accuracy at 3 grains over book max.  1.5 grains under actual max.  Brass lasted 8 firings before pockets got loose. My custom chamber is 7 grains over book max. Found pressure at 8.5 grains over book. I have also had tight barrels that hit pressure sooner. Some barrel companies such as Broughton are known for making faster barrels with there canted lands. Not trying to be a jerk, but you can believe what you have read, and I’ll believe what I have done.
  :yeah: spot on
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2018, 03:34:44 PM »
On my first facotry rifle I found best accuracy at 3 grains over book max.  1.5 grains under actual max.  Brass lasted 8 firings before pockets got loose. My custom chamber is 7 grains over book max. Found pressure at 8.5 grains over book. I have also had tight barrels that hit pressure sooner. Some barrel companies such as Broughton are known for making faster barrels with there canted lands. Not trying to be a jerk, but you can believe what you have read, and I’ll believe what I have done.
And if you run them through a chrono you'd see velocity spiking as you approach max. PO Ackley also noted case design plays a large part in traditional pressure signs. Cartridges with a steep shoulder and minimal body taper start showing pressure signs later than rounds like the 30-06. Waiting for the traditional pressure signs is what leads guys to say their 280ai is just as fast as any 7mm Rem mag, they're not. They are just loading the 280ai to significantly higher pressures. The fact they're running loads to the same velocity as that of a cartridge with 13gr of additional powder capacity, is a good indicator of high pressures. 

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 03:35:22 PM »
I'm not really sure what's being said here. Do you not use a chronograph as a tool in helping to work up loads and to help determine when you're approaching a maximum charge for your rifle? Chronographs are so cheap that I think all reloaders should use one. Personally, in my reloading I almost never see any of the traditional pressure signs that people talk about. I may go 1 or 2 grains above the book to see if groups improve but if I'm already getting good groups and my velocity is where it should be, I don't see a need to try to push it any further.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2018, 03:41:30 PM »
More pressure equals more velocity. I'm no expert, I only go by what I read from people who have more experience and knowledge than I do. In this case, John Barsness. If you're interested do a search for something like "pressure and velocity Barsness."

What you will find is that John Barsness recommends not relying on all the traditional signs of excessive pressure, as those things are not reliable indicators. If you see those pressure signs, you've often already gone way too far into dangerous territory.

I agree relying on traditional signs usually means you're well beyond safe when they emerge, but more pressure does not always equal higher velocity. I can safely load a black powder vintage 45-90 with a 350gr bullets to around 1,400 fps without issue or I could easily load it to around 1,000fps and split the barrel using the same bullet.

Offline Curly

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2018, 03:45:08 PM »
I agree with the pressure = velocity premise.

The problem with published load data is it rarely matches up with your particular OAL you may want or other particulars.  So, it is hard to go by what a book may call max.  But the books are good points of reference. 

The bullet and powder manufacturers have tested the loads and published the info.  If Alliant says they reached max SAAMI pressure and got X velocity at that pressure, then it really doesn't matter a whole lot what powder charge they got that velocity at, but you can be pretty sure that if you are exceeding that velocity with your loads then you are probably over SAAMI max pressure.  A reloader would use the data as a starting point and work up loads over a chronograph.  If no chronograph, then it probably would be prudent to stop at book max even if you aren't seeing the signs of over pressure like flattened primers and sticky bolt lift.  :twocents:  (Or you could just slowly work up until you get signs like flattened primers and sticky bolt, but just know by then you could be around 70,000 psi).
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2018, 03:48:29 PM »
I try not to talk about going over book max in a beginer reloading thread but one thing to remember is that the books load is for working in any rifle. Seating depth is often a lot of jump. Brass volumes are different, there also often on the side of caution due to lawyers.  If your not expirences enough to recognize preasure signs early you should not go over book max.  After you've gained the expirence needed then you can squeeze that extra fps out to hit that next node if it's safe in your rifle.
While I disagree that speed is the best indicator of over preasure I do believe a chrono is a must have tool for reloading.   Advanced reloading is not for everyone.....
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2018, 05:57:31 PM »
My point is that a beginner with a 20-22” barrel shouldn’t be referencing book velocity taken with 26” custom barrels. And yeah ackley cases hide pressure signs but reloading ackley cases isn’t exactly beginner reloading
Kindly do not attempt to cloud the issue with too many facts.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2018, 01:10:32 PM »
My point is that a beginner with a 20-22” barrel shouldn’t be referencing book velocity taken with 26” custom barrels. And yeah ackley cases hide pressure signs but reloading ackley cases isn’t exactly beginner reloading

That's the most important part right there. Just because you don't see the pressure doesn't mean it's not there. :twocents:

Remember that max PSI specs have a lot to do with what the brass is rated to handle and not necessarily the firearm. Every manufacturer has a slightly different max yield strength which they'll use in their case head. One manufacturer's case may show traditional pressure signs at 120% of listed max PSI for the round while another may not show similar signs until 140% max PSI. This is why people will say that Hornady brass is "soft" or Lapua brass is "hard". If you load 120% max PSI in a Hornady case you may end up with ejector marks and a visibly flattened case head. The same 120% load in a Lapua case may not show the same signs, but it's still a 20% overload.

I don't have a problem with folks loading up beyond published max loads as long as they know what they're doing. I've spent a lot of time walking the line between over the top and reckless while working with a couple of wildcats. I've never damaged a gun or myself though because I'm very aware of actual pressure signs beyond primers and bolt lift. There's always a smarter way to do a stupid thing. :chuckle:

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2018, 01:20:45 PM »
My point is that a beginner with a 20-22” barrel shouldn’t be referencing book velocity taken with 26” custom barrels. And yeah ackley cases hide pressure signs but reloading ackley cases isn’t exactly beginner reloading

That's the most important part right there. Just because you don't see the pressure doesn't mean it's not there. :twocents:

Remember that max PSI specs have a lot to do with what the brass is rated to handle and not necessarily the firearm. Every manufacturer has a slightly different max yield strength which they'll use in their case head. One manufacturer's case may show traditional pressure signs at 120% of listed max PSI for the round while another may not show similar signs until 140% max PSI. This is why people will say that Hornady brass is "soft" or Lapua brass is "hard". If you load 120% max PSI in a Hornady case you may end up with ejector marks and a visibly flattened case head. The same 120% load in a Lapua case may not show the same signs, but it's still a 20% overload.

I don't have a problem with folks loading up beyond published max loads as long as they know what they're doing. I've spent a lot of time walking the line between over the top and reckless while working with a couple of wildcats. I've never damaged a gun or myself though because I'm very aware of actual pressure signs beyond primers and bolt lift. There's always a smarter way to do a stupid thing. :chuckle:


Which is why as a newbie I reached out to experts.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2018, 06:10:42 AM »
I get great results with 165 gamekings with Reloader 15 in my Rem M700, 22 inch barrel.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2018, 12:59:09 AM »
I like Quickload just to confirm where I'm at pressure-wise.  You do have to input ALL your variables to get meaningful data including bullet speed and case volume, coal, etc and tweak powder burn rate to match but once all that is done it gives you a good idea of where you can nudge a load without being stupid. 

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2018, 01:07:58 PM »
Well then there's that whole idea about seating a bullet long e.g. closer to the lands to allow for a higher powder charge / velocity with less pressure.  I'm referring to the Berger articles.

I think, like people here have said, you have to watch for the pressure signs but also check your velocity to correlate pressure.  I'm still problem solving this too.  Gets frustrating at times.

Earlier this week I shot a load that grouped well (for four shots at least) and was running at 2800 FPS, which is near the top of book max.  So I loaded up ten rounds and went to the range yesterday to further confirm the group.  The results were frustrating--would group at all.  So I used the chrono for the last five rounds and, while the extreme spread was only 16 fps, these five rounds were traveling 75-90 fps faster, which put the velocity higher than book. 

Offline Curly

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2018, 02:02:38 PM »
Well then there's that whole idea about seating a bullet long e.g. closer to the lands to allow for a higher powder charge / velocity with less pressure.  I'm referring to the Berger articles.

I think, like people here have said, you have to watch for the pressure signs but also check your velocity to correlate pressure.  I'm still problem solving this too.  Gets frustrating at times.

Earlier this week I shot a load that grouped well (for four shots at least) and was running at 2800 FPS, which is near the top of book max.  So I loaded up ten rounds and went to the range yesterday to further confirm the group.  The results were frustrating--would group at all.  So I used the chrono for the last five rounds and, while the extreme spread was only 16 fps, these five rounds were traveling 75-90 fps faster, which put the velocity higher than book.

Yesterday was pretty warm out too......over 80 degrees here.  That could explain higher velocity yesterday and change in your groups. :twocents:
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2018, 02:11:53 PM »
I think of reloading as a process of learning and growth.  Get the basics down, go by the book, learn. Okay you did that and now can safely play around on the margins. Okay, you did that now you are back to the basics because they work.  Later on maybe you start playing with wildcats and the like but lets face it, especially for intro level loading.....the published data is there for a reason and with so many good powders, great bullets, and nice brass why bother with getting that 50 fps more and pushing it. Again, newbie loading which I put myself in that category.....why push it.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2018, 02:21:11 PM »
The main reason to push for that little extra speed is to stretch the super sonic range. For hunting loads speed isn’t near as important and that extra 50fps isn’t going to help much.
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2018, 03:18:49 PM »
Is there a certain brand of chronograph I should be looking for? Seems like there's a lot more options than I anticipated.
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2018, 03:50:16 PM »
Is there a certain brand of chronograph I should be looking for? Seems like there's a lot more options than I anticipated.
2 Choices - Magneto Speed very accurate attaches to your barrel.  $179.   Or new Labradar - accurate sits on your bench.  $599 ( ouch) 

Only problem with magneto speed is it can and will effect shots due to its tuning effect on barrel - especially if it slips around.  But works fine up to the very last little tweaks when you might want to remove it.

The LabRadar is great but pricey.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2018, 03:55:11 PM »
with so many good powders, great bullets, and nice brass why bother with getting that 50 fps more and pushing it.

This is good advice - shouldn't ignore it - I do but shouldn't. 

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2018, 04:06:09 PM »
Not to thread highjack, but as a newbie reloader I've been wondering this--

Is it obvious when a particular brass, powder, primer, bullet and charge weight isn't working with your rifle?

Suppose you shoot and chrono a ladder, spread over 2 grains in 0.3g increments e.g. 50-52 or 54-56.  And you see a flat spot in velocity among three charge weights based upon the chrono data.  So you repeat the test around those charges, perhaps several times, to confirm that velocities are relatively stable around those charges.  Then you move onto shooting three shot groups at those 3, 4 or 5 charges.  Suppose none of the charges group at all, or suppose that the smallest group you get at 100 yards measures 2"-3".

Is a 2"-3" group sufficiently 'tight' enough to start adjusting seating depth to shrink the group down to MOA (1" @ 100yds")? 

Or, would you conclude that something needs to change e.g. type of powder, type of bullet, bullet weight?

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2018, 04:38:03 PM »
With 2-3 mos I’d say something needs changing.  I always start with seating depth test to avoid things like this.  I do 3 shot groups with my starting load and .030” jump increments. This gets you close to a good seating depth your rifle likes with a given bullet. Then work out charge weight and then fine tune seating depth.  If playing with seating depth doesn’t shrink those groups and you have eliminated shooter error I’d try different bullet.
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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2018, 04:45:07 PM »
I do mostly the opposite of jasnt  :chuckle: run loads from starting up and look for max (typically I start .015-.02 from lands) and checking velocity. If I get a velocity I like I’ll back off from pressure and work seat depth. If velocity isn’t there I’ve only used 6-10 bullets and change powder.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2018, 07:17:07 PM »
If you started .020 off you are not likely going to shrink a 3" group enough at 100 with just seating change.   


FYI Here's Eric Cortina blogpost thats commonly followed.  Its an awful lot of shooting but shows the extent that some goto to get their best load.    I prefer a shorter process but I may be leaving the perfect load still on the bench. 

Update: 9/17/14
Some of you have asked for more detailed instructions on how I do this. Here they are:
1. Find Jam by seating a bullet long on a dummy piece of brass (no primer nor powder) and apply die wax to the bullet ogive and record it's base to ogive length.
2. Chamber the round and close the bolt.
3. Snap the bolt open and measure the base to ogive measurement. If it is shorter than previous measurement, this is your jam. Do it a few times with different cases to make sure.
4. Load a known powder/primer/bullet combination. I load 4 of each powder charge in 0.5 gr. increments and seat bullets at jam - .020". I use one shot of each to get barrel fouled up and also keep an eye for max pressure at the same time. You can also use these rounds to break in a barrel if you are inclined to. If I encounter pressure on the hotter rounds, I will not shoot groups with the other loaded rounds and will pull bullets when I get back home. Do not shoot in round robin style because position and natural point of aim will be compromised.
5. Shoot 3 shot groups starting from lowest to highest. All groups are shot over a chronograph.
6. Examine target and find the place where consecutive groups line up vertically and ES is the lowest and speed increases the least from one group to the next.
7. Load to the middle of the powder node and do a seating depth test.
8. Load 3 shot groups starting from Jam - 0.005" all the way out to Jam - .040" in .003" increments.
9. When you find the seating depth test that shoots the best, load towards the longest side of the node to allow more room for throat erosion.
10. Final step is to load the new seating depth and load 5 shot groups in 0.1 gr. increments 0.5 gr. on each side of node (if pressure limits are not reached). This will cover an entire grain of powder and you will be able to pinpoint where the powder node starts and ends. In the summer, load towards the low end of the node, and do the opposite in the winter.

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Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2018, 08:52:37 PM »
Not to thread highjack, but as a newbie reloader I've been wondering this--

Is it obvious when a particular brass, powder, primer, bullet and charge weight isn't working with your rifle?

Suppose you shoot and chrono a ladder, spread over 2 grains in 0.3g increments e.g. 50-52 or 54-56.  And you see a flat spot in velocity among three charge weights based upon the chrono data.  So you repeat the test around those charges, perhaps several times, to confirm that velocities are relatively stable around those charges.  Then you move onto shooting three shot groups at those 3, 4 or 5 charges.  Suppose none of the charges group at all, or suppose that the smallest group you get at 100 yards measures 2"-3".

Is a 2"-3" group sufficiently 'tight' enough to start adjusting seating depth to shrink the group down to MOA (1" @ 100yds")? 

Or, would you conclude that something needs to change e.g. type of powder, type of bullet, bullet weight?

Feel free to ask thread Jack. I don't mind at all. You may have a question I need an answer to later.

Btw still Loving the Savage 10t
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