collapse

Advertisement


Author Topic: Newbie reloading question  (Read 4867 times)

Offline Jolten

  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Yakima, WA
Newbie reloading question
« on: April 21, 2018, 07:39:10 PM »
Reloading 165gr Sierra hpbt Gamekings and figured I'd give varget a try instead of blc2.

Looking at Sierra's manual it says max load of varget is 43gr for 2700fps.

Hodgens reloading website States for a 165gr bullet 46gr is max for 2700fps.


3grs difference for the same speed rating seems pretty wide of a stretch.

If I worked up from 41.5gr in .5gr increments would it be safe to go above 43?
The best equipment in the world is useless to the idiot who doesn't understand it.

Offline hogslayer

  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 818
  • Location: Snoqualmie-Belfair
  • Groups: Bloody decks
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2018, 08:05:09 PM »
Yes. It could be the difference in breathing surface.  I only use manuals for a starting place. I run up tell I hit pressure and that’s max.  Most loads I have found accurate are 1-2 grains below max.  Not book max. Your rifle max.  Are you loading to magazine length or can you load longer to .020 or so off rifling?

Offline Jolten

  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Yakima, WA
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2018, 08:24:07 PM »
Currently I'm set up to have .015 jumps to the lands based off what my blc2 was. (Using a bullet comparator)
The best equipment in the world is useless to the idiot who doesn't understand it.

Offline hunter399

  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Old Salt
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 7661
  • Location: In Your Hunting Spot
  • If you know me,then you know I give zero #&$@$
  • Groups: NRA RMEF
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2018, 08:26:33 PM »
Sometimes when there is diffrent loading data for the same powder and bullet I split the difference for max would be 44.5gr.
I rather piss in the wind,then have piss down my back.

Offline jasnt

  • ELR junkie
  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Old Salt
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 6445
  • Location: deer park
  • Out shooting
  • Groups: WSTA
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2018, 08:56:18 PM »
Could be seating depth, bearing surface, brass.....
Your rifle will tell you when to stop

http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html
https://www.howlforwildlife.org/take_action  It takes 10 seconds and it’s free. To easy to make an excuse not to make your voice heard!!!!!!

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline bobcat

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 38892
  • Location: Rochester
    • robert68
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 09:14:29 PM »
Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.

Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)

And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.

Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.

I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.

Offline Jolten

  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Yakima, WA
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 09:35:22 PM »
Savage 10T .308 win caliber. 20" bull barrel 5R rifling.

Sierra 165gr hpbt Gamekings
Winchester Brass
CCI Br2 primers.

I don't think I should be hitting 2700 as I believe a 24" barrel is used by Sierra. But 2600 maybe? I've read 25fps loss for each inch less of barrel.
The best equipment in the world is useless to the idiot who doesn't understand it.

Offline blackpowderhunter

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 1056
  • Location: Renton
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 09:38:03 PM »
definitely start on the lower end and work up with a chrono..
the load i just finished up with today was the most accurate, but slower than what the nosler manual said it should be...and less than max.
just keep an eye on the brass, and bolt lift.
every rifle is different and lots of gun powder and a primer in a confined space is not something to guess with.

Offline hogslayer

  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 818
  • Location: Snoqualmie-Belfair
  • Groups: Bloody decks
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 10:15:03 PM »
Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.

Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)

And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.

Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.

I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.

Not sure if I follow you when your saying velocity is pressure.  Take a round with any of the Hogdon powders and see where your max velocity is. Then try it with a double base powder such as Reloader or Vhitavouri and it will be much higher.  Bolt lift, flat primers, ejector marks are signs I look for pressure.

Offline blackpowderhunter

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 1056
  • Location: Renton
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 10:47:44 PM »
Velocity is your best indicator of pressure. If your chronograph is accurate and reliable, I would go by the velocity more than anything else. If the book says 2700 is max, then stop when you get to that velocity.

Having said that, the Hodgdon data I'm looking at shows 2773 with 46.0 grains of Varget (assuming you're talking about a 308 Win.)

And Nosler data shows 2820 fps with 46.0 grains of Varget, and 165 grain bullet.

Both of these sources are using a 24 inch barrel so if yours is shorter you couldn't expect to match their velocities.
my most recent load build up i was hoping for 3100+ fps but 3050 proved most accurate.  primers looked good, bolt lift was easy, and most important of all it was accurate. i might have to adjust my zero a little bit, but id rather do that than stretch brass life and safety.

I certainly wouldn't push it much further as long as you're getting good accuracy. 2700 fps is plenty for a 165 grain bullet. Gaining 50 or even 100 fps won't make any significant difference in performance.

Not sure if I follow you when your saying velocity is pressure.  Take a round with any of the Hogdon powders and see where your max velocity is. Then try it with a double base powder such as Reloader or Vhitavouri and it will be much higher.  Bolt lift, flat primers, ejector marks are signs I look for pressure.
i think people get too hung up on velocity.
accuracy kills more than velocity.  i agree.  watch bolt lift and brass.  i'd give up 100 fps for longer brass life and overall safer conditions.

Offline bobcat

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 38892
  • Location: Rochester
    • robert68
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 11:36:18 PM »
What I'm saying is that if your loads are exceeding the pressure tested loads in the manuals, then you've got excessive pressure. The traditional signs of excessive pressure are likely to not show up until you're well over max pressure.

To be safe, you shouldn't be going over the max powder charge in your manual, and also don't go over the max book velocity if you happen to hit that velocity before you get to the max book charge. That's assuming your data is using the same bullet.

Now, if you don't have a chronograph, I would suggest never going over the max charge shown in your book. Because again, the traditional pressure signs that people use just are not that reliable.

Offline bobcat

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 38892
  • Location: Rochester
    • robert68
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 01:15:21 AM »
John Barsness explains it better than I do.

Read the article beginning on page 68 here:

http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Load_Development_May_11.pdf

Or here's part of it:

Quote
Another  common  misconcep tion  is  that  case  separations  are caused  by  excessive  pressure. Well,  no.  Over  the  decades  I’ve encountered a number of cartridge cases that were the victims of  hot  loads.  Some  had  odd marks  on  the  case  head,  while others  had  primer  pockets  large enough for two primers – though no  trace  of  a  primer  was  left  in the  hole.  Yet  none  of  these  cases showed the shiny ring of stretching,  and  their  bodies  hadn’t cracked  anywhere.  Instead,  case separations  are  caused  by  (you guessed it) excessive headspace. Now,  often  cases  with  a  shiny ring  in  front  of  the  case  head,  or actual  cracks  in  the  same  area, also  have  flattened  primers,  supposedly a classic sign of high pressure. I hate to break the news, but flat primers aren’t necessarily an indication of high pressure, or even a very good sign.

The  primer  myth  has  been around long enough that Gen. Julian  Hatcher  warned  against  it way back in 1947, when his book Hatcher’s Notebook was first published.  (This  is  one  of  the  basic texts  of  rifles  and ammunition, even today, and every serious shooter  should  own  a  copy.) Early in the chapter on headspace,  Hatcher  discusses  wildcat cartridges:  “Usually  the  originator of one of these cartridges had no  facilities  for  taking  pressures, and depended entirely on the notoriously  unreliable   [emphasis mine]  method  of  judging  pressures  by  the  appearance  of  the primer.” But myths are much harder to kill than create, so some  handloaders  continue  to believe  they  can  divine  pressure from a primer.

When  a  rifle  cartridge  goes  off, the  primer  is  pushed  backward, due  to  powder  gas  pushing through  the  flash-hole,  so  it would seem to make sense that a really  flat  primer  indicates  high pressure.  Not  necessarily. A  really  flat  primer  can also  be caused  by  slightly  excessive headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it drives the case forward. If  there’s  a  little  slop  between case and chamber, the expanding  powder  gas  first pushes  the  primer  backward  in the primer pocket. If the pressure is  low  enough,  as  with  the  .30-30 Winchester,  the  primers  will remain  slightly  backed  out  of  the fired  brass.  This  is  common  in ancient and well-worn .30-30 lever actions.

If  the  pressure  is  higher,  however,  as  with  the  .30-06,  the  rear of the primer itself expands a little  as  it  backs  out,  since  it’s  no longer  supported  by  the  primer pocket.  In another  micro-second the case itself is thrust back over the slightly expanded primer. At  the  same  time,  the  case stretches a little bit, so the handloader  also  finds  a  shiny  ring  a half-inch in front of the case head.  Our  innocent  handloader now sees what he thinks are two signs  of  high  pressure,  when  in reality  the only  problem  is  oversizing the case. Primer  cups  also  vary  in  thickness  and  hardness  not  just  from brand to brand, but lot to lot. Add tiny differences in headspace,  and  trying  to  “estimate” pressures  from  primer appearance  is  like  trying  to  make shrimp jambalaya out of tofu and spinach.

Now,  the  case  itself  can  show signs  of  excessive  pressure.  One of  the  virtues  of  brass  is  that  up to  a  certain  pressure  it  remains flexible,  returning  near  its  original shape even after an instant of very  high pressure.  This  is  why brass  is  used  in  cartridge  cases: The brass expands firmly against the chamber walls as the powder gas  expands,  sealing  the  chamber.  But  if  subjected  to  “excessive” pressure, brass doesn’t spring back after firing. Instead it starts to flow.

The first sign of excessive pressure is a small imprint on the case  head  from  the  ejector  slot hole in the bolt face. This can be misleading,  however,  especially in a new rifle, due to a little ridge left by machining around the
edge of the ejector hole. This ridge  will  eventually  wear  away with use, but initially it can leave a definite mark on brass even when firing factory ammunition. Today’s  brass  is  often  hard enough that signs of real distress
don’t appear until the pressure is over  70,000  psi,  above  the  long term  limit  of  modern  rifle  steels.
So even if your brass doesn’t show ejector-hole marks, it doesn’t mean the load is safe, no matter  what  your  cousin  Elrod claims.

One  of  the  classic  examples  is  the  7mm  STW,  originally developed as a wildcat. Many early  users  of  the  STW  claimedthey could push 140-grain bullets3,500 to 3,600 fps without any traditional  sign  of  excessive  pressure  –  and  they  were  right.  But when the folks at Remington tested their loads, they found pressures of 70,000+ psi, the reason  factory  7mm  STW  ballistics were toned down considerably.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:29:49 AM by bobcat »

Offline TVHunts

  • Past Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+56)
  • Sourdough
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 1110
  • Location: Marysville
  • Groups: NRA-RSO,RMEF,DU, Marysville Rifle Club
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 05:44:42 AM »
John Barsness explains it better than I do.

Read the article beginning on page 68 here:

http://www.tulprpc.org/attachments/File/Load_Development_May_11.pdf

Or here's part of it:

Quote
Another  common  misconcep tion  is  that  case  separations  are caused  by  excessive  pressure. Well,  no.  Over  the  decades  I’ve encountered a number of cartridge cases that were the victims of  hot  loads.  Some  had  odd marks  on  the  case  head,  while others  had  primer  pockets  large enough for two primers – though no  trace  of  a  primer  was  left  in the  hole.  Yet  none  of  these  cases showed the shiny ring of stretching,  and  their  bodies  hadn’t cracked  anywhere.  Instead,  case separations  are  caused  by  (you guessed it) excessive headspace. Now,  often  cases  with  a  shiny ring  in  front  of  the  case  head,  or actual  cracks  in  the  same  area, also  have  flattened  primers,  supposedly a classic sign of high pressure. I hate to break the news, but flat primers aren’t necessarily an indication of high pressure, or even a very good sign.

The  primer  myth  has  been around long enough that Gen. Julian  Hatcher  warned  against  it way back in 1947, when his book Hatcher’s Notebook was first published.  (This  is  one  of  the  basic texts  of  rifles  and ammunition, even today, and every serious shooter  should  own  a  copy.) Early in the chapter on headspace,  Hatcher  discusses  wildcat cartridges:  “Usually  the  originator of one of these cartridges had no  facilities  for  taking  pressures, and depended entirely on the notoriously  unreliable   [emphasis mine]  method  of  judging  pressures  by  the  appearance  of  the primer.” But myths are much harder to kill than create, so some  handloaders  continue  to believe  they  can  divine  pressure from a primer.

When  a  rifle  cartridge  goes  off, the  primer  is  pushed  backward, due  to  powder  gas  pushing through  the  flash-hole,  so  it would seem to make sense that a really  flat  primer  indicates  high pressure.  Not  necessarily.  A  really  flat  primer  can  also  be caused  by  slightly  excessive headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it drives the case forward.  If  there’s  a  little  slop  between case and chamber, the expanding  powder  gas  first
pushes  the  primer  backward  in the primer pocket. If the pressure is  low  enough,  as  with  the  .30-30
Winchester,  the  primers  will  remain  slightly  backed  out  of  the fired  brass.  This  is  common  in ancient and well-worn .30-30 lever actions.

If  the  pressure  is  higher,  however,  as  with  the  .30-06,  the  rear of the primer itself expands a little  as  it  backs  out,  since  it’s  no longer  supported  by  the  primer pocket.  In another  micro-second the case itself is thrust back over the slightly expanded primer. At  the  same  time,  the  case stretches a little bit, so the handloader  also  finds  a  shiny  ring  a half-inch in front of the case head.  Our  innocent  handloader now sees what he thinks are two signs  of  high  pressure,  when  in reality  the only  problem  is  oversizing the case. Primer  cups  also  vary  in  thickness  and  hardness  not  just  from brand to brand, but lot to lot. Add tiny differences in headspace,  and  trying  to  “estimate” pressures  from  primer appearance  is  like  trying  to  make shrimp jambalaya out of tofu and spinach.

Now,  the  case  itself  can  show signs  of  excessive  pressure.  One of  the  virtues  of  brass  is  that  up to  a  certain  pressure  it  remains flexible,  returning  near  its  original shape even after an instant of very  high pressure.  This  is  why brass  is  used  in  cartridge  cases: The brass expands firmly against the chamber walls as the powder gas  expands,  sealing  the  chamber.  But  if  subjected  to  “excessive” pressure, brass doesn’t spring back after firing. Instead it starts to flow.

The first sign of excessive pressure is a small imprint on the case  head  from  the  ejector  slot hole in the bolt face. This can be misleading,  however,  especially in a new rifle, due to a little ridge left by machining around the
edge of the ejector hole. This ridge  will  eventually  wear  away with use, but initially it can leave a definite mark on brass even when firing factory ammunition. Today’s  brass  is  often  hard enough that signs of real distress
don’t appear until the pressure is over  70,000  psi,  above  the  long term  limit  of  modern  rifle  steels.
So even if your brass doesn’t show ejector-hole marks, it doesn’t mean the load is safe, no matter  what  your  cousin  Elrod claims.

One  of  the  classic  examples  is  the  7mm  STW,  originally developed as a wildcat. Many early  users  of  the  STW  claimedthey could push 140-grain bullets3,500 to 3,600 fps without any traditional  sign  of  excessive  pressure  –  and  they  were  right.  But when the folks at Remington tested their loads, they found pressures of 70,000+ psi, the reason  factory  7mm  STW  ballistics were toned down considerably.


That was a good read Bobcat, thanks for posting that. 

I agree with Blackpowderhunter, velocity is great if thats an accuracy node for your rifle.  I don’t concern myself with velocity especially when a load is shooting well under MOA.  I don’t believe I’ve ever ran a ladder test beyond max book load, I’ve never needed to so far without finding accuracy first. 

MAGA

Hey Slobbering JOE,

 STOP the freaking INVASION

Offline Fl0und3rz

  • Forum Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 51553
  • Location: E. WA
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 07:45:16 AM »
44 grains of H Varget is what I ended up with, using a 46 grain max from Nosler reloading data for 165 Partitions and Accubonds.  Incidentally, this was what Nosler was indicating as their "accuracy" load, with a 98% case fill and where 46 grains was indicated as a compressed load.

I was shooting a Ruger M77 MkII All Weather with milsurp brass..  IIRC, there were also people that were saying they were having similar success at 44 grains with the 165s.

Offline Jolten

  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 843
  • Location: Yakima, WA
Re: Newbie reloading question
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 09:11:37 AM »
Thanks all for the input! I appreciate it
The best equipment in the world is useless to the idiot who doesn't understand it.

 


* Advertisement

* Recent Topics

1x scopes vs open sights by nwhunter
[Today at 03:54:47 AM]


10th Annual - 2024 YOUTH TURKEY HUNT CONTEST (enter by Mar 14) by bearpaw
[Yesterday at 11:27:12 PM]


World Record Archery Blacktail by huntnnw
[Yesterday at 10:09:06 PM]


Let’s see your best Washington bull by huntnnw
[Yesterday at 10:06:34 PM]


Fishing with kids in Wenatchee by HardCorpsHuntr
[Yesterday at 10:03:34 PM]


Let’s see your best Washington buck by jjhunter
[Yesterday at 09:12:44 PM]


Hunting Dog Memorial by ghosthunter
[Yesterday at 08:55:30 PM]


Pairs by Dan-o
[Yesterday at 08:15:34 PM]


Springer 2024 Columbia River by Blacklab
[Yesterday at 06:50:06 PM]


Holster for FNS 40C by bb76
[Yesterday at 06:37:56 PM]


Bangers and mash by elkrack
[Yesterday at 04:32:06 PM]


Wenatchee Hydro Park Fishing by Jake Dogfish
[Yesterday at 03:40:17 PM]


Owners of Ireland Farms Dogs by ASHQUACK
[Yesterday at 12:24:39 PM]

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal