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Author Topic: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington  (Read 4400 times)

Offline High Climber

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2018, 09:00:08 AM »
Hopefully they can reduce or contain it.  All the conspiracy theories aside.  The sad part is this is a disease first identified in livestock that has crossed over to elk.  With the way people move livestock around it is terrifying.  Some drastic changes may occur in the future.
May need to do some fact checking on that one.  I havenít heard a hypothesis yet that claims jumping from livestock to elk. Cattle have there own, different hoof issues.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2018, 09:02:41 AM »
Hopefully they can reduce or contain it.  All the conspiracy theories aside.  The sad part is this is a disease first identified in livestock that has crossed over to elk.  With the way people move livestock around it is terrifying.  Some drastic changes may occur in the future.
May need to do some fact checking on that one.  I havenít heard a hypothesis yet that claims jumping from livestock to elk. Cattle have there own, different hoof issues.

I was thinking the same thing, if this is caused by livestock it should have started in Eastern Washington where livestock grazing is common on public lands.  :twocents:
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Offline SkookumHntr

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2018, 09:19:59 AM »
Can't believe how fast its spreading, are skookumchuck elk are getting it pretty good now! I still think it's the pesticides Weyerhaeuser uses!
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Offline Alan K

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2018, 09:56:00 AM »
Bacteria are constantly evolving.  It's not a far fetched hypothesis to think that at some point a farm in the Boistfort Valley brought in a carrier animal from auction that had a strain that could infect elk. Similar to sheep pneumonia, remember what happened to the Tieton sheep herd? 

Certainly much less far fetched than somehow herbicides spawn a strain of an existing bacteria.

The fact that 20+ years later the bacteria has been able to adapt to survival in more moderate/dry conditions as opposed to moist/wet shouldn't be a suprise either.

It only takes one 'open door' for these things to proliferate. That one carrier had a strain that found the one elk, or herd of elk which was susceptible, and it was in. From that first cross over in the mid 90's it has been evolving on the elk side.

Offline jstone

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2018, 10:01:10 AM »
Do these elk travel through any private timber companies who spray? Or do any of them travel to the west side.

Online dreamunelk

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2018, 10:01:26 AM »
Below is a good start for those that are interested.  There is a lot of info available for free on the net.  There is even more in scientific journals if you have access.  Some libraries have access to journals.  From the links below you should be able to learn some search terms to use.

Scientists now understand that treponeme bacteria, which cause ďdigital dermatitisĒ in domestic livestock, are also the major culprit in so-called hoof-rot. The condition causes elk hooves to become deformed and brittle. The affected hooves often fall off, causing sores on the animalís foot and leg. Hobbled, the elk often die of infection or starvation.

http://www.chinookobserver.com/co/local-news/20170823/elk-hoof-rot-spreading-bacteria-idd-as-cause

Isolation of Digital Dermatitis Treponemes from Hoof Lesions in Wild North American Elk (Cervus elaphus) in Washington State, USA

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267735634_Isolation_of_Digital_Dermatitis_Treponemes_from_Hoof_Lesions_in_Wild_North_American_Elk_Cervus_elaphus_in_Washington_State_USA

http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC4290963

A diagnostic investigation to determine the cause was initiated in 2009. Radiography, routine bacteriology, virology, serology, and trace mineral analyses did not identify any significant underlying musculoskeletal or systemic disease (Han and Mansfield, 2014). Subsequent histopathology and silver staining of lesions from affected hooves demonstrated the presence of deeply invasive spirochetes accompanied by significant inflammation. PCR and DNA sequencing performed by the Washington Animal Disease Diagnostic Laboratory, the USDA National Animal Disease Center (NADC), and the University of Liverpool; IHC performed by the California Animal Health and Food Safety Laboratory; and culture and isolation performed by the USDA NADC and the University of Liverpool all identified these spirochetes as Treponema spp. known to be highly associated with two infectious hoof diseases in domestic animals: bovine digital dermatitis (DD) of cattle (Evans et al., 2009) and contagious ovine digital dermatitis (CODD) of sheep (Sayers, 2009).

Digital dermatitis (DD) emerged as a significant disease of cattle in the mid-1990s. According to a 2007 National Animal Health Monitoring System survey, DD was found to be the primary cause of lameness in dairy cows nationwide, with 70% of dairy operations reporting cases; and with DD accounting for 50% of all lameness cases in cows within study herds (USDA, 2009). Contagious ovine digital dermatitis is not commonly reported in the US, but has recently emerged as a major cause of lameness in sheep in the United Kingdom (Wassink et al., 2003). WhileTreponema spp. are consistently associated with DD lesions, especially in later stages, DD is considered to be a polybacterial disease. It is believed that unidentified bacteria or microbial consortia (Krull et al., 2014), as well as favorable environmental conditions are required to initiate the disease.

https://wsvma.org/2014/07/03/severe-treponeme-associated-bacterial-hoof-disease-in-southwest-washington-elk/

Globally; digital dermatitis is a leading form of lameness observed in production dairy cattle. While the precise etiology remains to be determined; the disease is clearly associated with infection by numerous species of treponemes; in addition to other anaerobic bacteria. The goal of this review article is to provide an overview of the current literature; focusing on discussion of the polybacterial nature of the digital dermatitis disease complex and host immune response. Several phylotypes of treponemes have been identified; some of which correlate with location in the lesion and some with stages of lesion development. Local innate immune responses may contribute to the proliferative, inflammatory conditions that perpetuate digital dermatitis lesions. While serum antibody is produced to bacterial antigens in the lesions, little is known about cellular-based immunity. Studies are still required to delineate the pathogenic traits of treponemes associated with digital dermatitis; and other host factors that mediate pathology and protection of digital dermatitis lesions.
Keywords: digital dermatitis, treponemes, anaerobes, immune response, dairy cattle
PACS: J0101

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4693204/

Digital dermatitis is a painful foot condition that causes severe lameness in cattle.

This highly contagious disease was first described in Italy in 1974 and has since spread around the world, primarily within dairy cattle.

However, the disease is also becoming an emerging threat in beef cattle.

It is most common in cattle kept in confinement, and although it can affect breeding cows, it has been identified primarily in feedlot cattle within the beef industry.

A research study in 2000 in southeastern United States identified digital dermatitis in 29 percent of culled dairy cattle at the packing plant. The same study said four percent of culled adult beef cattle had lesions of digital dermatitis.

https://www.producer.com/2014/08/digital-dermatitis-emerges-in-beef-cattle/

Contagious ovine digital dermatitis (CODD) is a severe foot condition of sheep first described in 1997. The condition is caused by a spirochaete resembling those involved in digital dermatitis in cattle which has led to the adoption of the current name. The condition in sheep may have originated from dairy cattle where digital dermatitis is a major cause of lameness.  Sheep with CODD show severe lameness typically affecting one digit of one foot. There is reduced grazing activity with long periods spend lying down.  There is rapid loss of body condition.

http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/contagious-ovine-digital-dermatitis-(codd).aspx

Identification of Spirochetes Associated with Contagious Ovine Digital Dermatitis▿

http://jcm.asm.org/content/47/4/1199.full

This review summarized current literature and scientific understanding of digital dermatitis. Digital dermatitis affects dairy cattle world-wide. Similar disease has been found in other hooved mammals: beef cattle, sheep, goats and elk. The cause of digital dermatitis is unknown but multiple spirochetes (Treponema) and other anaerobic bacteria appear to be involved. Little is known about these bacteria and less is known about immune responses to them. Further study is needed on the bacteria involved, host immune responses, model development and effective treatments.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publication/?seqNo115=317633


Online dreamunelk

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2018, 10:09:00 AM »
Here is another link with some really good links to some of the research USDA is conducting on DD.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/people-locations/person?person-id=47385


Offline Mudman

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2018, 11:55:12 AM »
Spraying weakens animals immune systems.  Spraying creates unnatural environment for bacteria to thrive.  Spraying eliminates many foods they like to feed on.  People if it poisons us do you think its safe for animals?  Common sense here.  What do ya think we would feel like if we sprayed roundup on our salads?  Some day when the truth comes out don't act surprised.  Grouse anyone???  Good luck finding em.  The hoof issue is created by Mans idiocy and greed.  Maybe a small mutation IS in play but chemicals that cause illness and cancer are not responsible for mutations?  There is research out there over last decade but its ignored or labeled as invalid or the person is a quack.  Very sad situation.
MAGA

Offline Peewee

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2018, 01:13:04 PM »
Spraying weakens animals immune systems.  Spraying creates unnatural environment for bacteria to thrive.  Spraying eliminates many foods they like to feed on.  People if it poisons us do you think its safe for animals?  Common sense here.  What do ya think we would feel like if we sprayed roundup on our salads?  Some day when the truth comes out don't act surprised.  Grouse anyone???  Good luck finding em.  The hoof issue is created by Mans idiocy and greed.  Maybe a small mutation IS in play but chemicals that cause illness and cancer are not responsible for mutations?  There is research out there over last decade but its ignored or labeled as invalid or the person is a quack.  Very sad situation.
:yeah:

Offline logger

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2018, 01:40:59 PM »
These elk are travlers! Some spend alot of their time in the lewis river unit, the lewis and west klick and wind river units all come together at troutlake, some come out of the reservation as well, a few hang around year round. I have saw a couple limpers up by glenwood but not more than 2 or 3. whatever the hell is causing it I wish they could get it under control
go ahead on er.

Offline Alan K

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2018, 01:44:32 PM »
Spraying weakens animals immune systems.

If by that you mean they don't get a well rounded diet taking in a variety of food sources, maybe. . . If they had a home range the size of a single harvest unit.

In western Washington after harvest, a unit is sprayed 0-3 times over it's next rotation, which is anywhere from 40-100+ years depending on the landowner. The amount is determined by the brush complex of the unit.  If there isn't a competitive brush complex, the site may not be sprayed at all.  If there is, a site prep spray is usually applied prior to planting.  This knocks back the brush so that seedlings have a chance to get their root systems established before the intense competition comes back.  In most cases this is all a stand gets.  If competition is especially intense a follow up release spray might be applied.  If third applications are made, it's usually spot type sprays as opposed to broadcast, targeting specific species like scotchbroom.  The initial site prep and a release spray are in the first couple years of a stands life.  Sprayed species begin coming back the following growing season and by year 3 they're back in full force.  So I guess where I'm going with that, is each sprayed harvest unit is only really void of feed for the first year, and by year 3 has all of the species back (and in greater densities by the way than when there was standing timber).

There are green up rules in Washington, which limit the contiguous acreages that can be clearcut. There can in no case be more than 240 contiguous acres of clearcuts that are under 5 years old, or have an average tree height under 4'.  This accomplishes two things for wildlife, ensures they have cover, as well as adequate food sources.  If a harvest unit is sprayed, the nutritional value an elk needs is in the next harvest unit over.  They aren't being deprived.

Spraying creates unnatural environment for bacteria to thrive.

I can't speak to this, but if you have some credible evidence that shows this, please share.

People if it poisons us do you think its safe for animals?  Common sense here.  What do ya think we would feel like if we sprayed roundup on our salads?  Some day when the truth comes out don't act surprised.

Round-up has almost certainly been sprayed over our salads, if it were bought at the store.  Herbicides are run through a gauntlet of testing for years and years and years prior to being approved for use, and even when approval is granted they must continually be re-certified for continued use.  Testing with cutting edge science is always ongoing.  I am no chemist, and I agree, the big long chemical names are intimidating.  I was brought up as a kid with those green icky face stickers plastered all over the cleaners etc. underneath the sink. They instilled fear in me too. I will though, leave it up to the actual scientists to determine a chemical's safety for use.

There is research out there over last decade but its ignored or labeled as invalid or the person is a quack.  Very sad situation.

In this day and age, I can't see it being possible that credible science is turned away.  It's not like the old days where something can be ignored and burried under the rug.  With the internet things will always be exposed.


If managed timberlands were the scourge of wildlife, void of feed, they wouldn't be the most richly populated areas in western Washington by deer and elk.  Go take a walk through the Gifford Pinchot, it's desolate relative to managed timber lands despite being 'all natural'.  My hunch is that the outcry over herbicides is a smear on timber companies who have moved towards access permits. I can't recall any of the herbicide mud slinging prior to Weyerhaeuser moving towards access permits, despite herbicides being used for decades and decades prior.

Offline Mudman

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2018, 05:11:20 PM »
You shouldn't use this site to promote timber spraying.  I don't really want to go search for things I have read over the years.  But I may?  Explain where the grouse are and I may consider your argument. 
MAGA

Offline Mudman

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2018, 05:44:01 PM »
Atrazine is GREAT! http://www.atrazinelovers.com/m1.html   Drink up!  Isnt there a decline in frogs and fish? http://www.panna.org/resources/atrazine    CDC  https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=336&tid=59   WDFW ignores these quacks http://jongosch.com/growing-evidence-links-herbicides-to-elk-hoof-disease/   Did I mention most the world has BANNED atrazine.  This goes on forever but it doesn't exist if ya choose to ignore it.
MAGA

Offline Alan K

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 07:56:23 PM »
Drive any logging road after a light rain and you'll find grouse!  :tup:  If numbers are down in whatever area you hunt, it's more likely (in my opinion) due to the increase in daily limit to 4.  I never did understand the rationale for that.  It's not like we had several booner years of good hatches to justify it.  I purchase the Vail recreation permit (heavily managed tree farm) and could limit daily on days with new moisture throughout the month of September and into October.  Once the crowds set in during rifle deer I'm sure they take a beating.

And I'm not promoting spraying, I'm just trying to illustrate the reality on the ground. There are a lot of folks on here who believe that spraying has eliminated feed for game animals, etc. etc. but that just isn't the case. 

The reality is that all chemicals are dangerous at different exposure levels. Of course herbicides at high levels can have an effect on the environment and wildlife. But that is exactly why there are limits on application rates, and buffers from water.  To act as safe guards from over exposure.  If you were to go down all of the salt in your salt shaker there is a very good chance you'll die (depending on your body weight).  Or gasoline, get a little on your hand filling up the lawnmower, no big deal, but pound a liter of it and you're in trouble.

The blog you reference, is absolutely well intentioned.  He's obviously fired up. Hell, we all are.  Hunting, and specifically elk hunting for most of us, is our primary passion in life.  But in that link you post there I don't see anything that actually links herbicides to hoof rot.  If in fact an elk is exposed at a level great enough to impact it's immune system, is about the only part of that article that I can see has any chance of being linked. But that doesn't cause hoof rot, even if true. I don't buy the nutrient deficiency aspect, because like I said, they could go get those nutrients in the next unit over.  The fact that they cite the St. Helens herd being nutrient deficient, and implying that it would be related to herbicides, is highly suspect to me.  Since the mountain blew, that entire area has been basically a single age class.  As timber matures it closes out the feed.  Remember those news stories years ago about the starving elk folks were finding, and it prompting winter feeding?

They spoke about antler deformity elsewhere on that blog.  It happens when an injury occurs.  Guys in my family and our hunting group have taken bulls with a flattened round ball, or broad head scarred over and lodged in a shoulder blade.  They commonly have an antler deformity on the opposite side.  Same thing applies when the body reacts to the 'injured' (infected) hoof.  It's not like there is a Chernobyl type deformity being caused by herbicides.

On one of the posts it also talked about the elk in the Snoqualmie Valley coming down with it, and talks about clearcuts in the surrounding hills.  There is no mention though, of the farmland just downstream of North Bend, which could very well have brought in a carrier animal.  Sure, the Olympic National Park and Mt. Rainier National Park don't seem to be infected, but they're not only free of clearcuts and herbicides, they're free of the livestock industry.

At the end of the day, I'll default to the scientists and agencies that set the safeguards for using herbicides.  I say study the heck out of it, from all aspects.  If it's found to be caused by herbicides, I'll be right there with you guys pushing for reforms.  Until then though, I'll continue to believe that a strain of hoof disease bacteria was introduced by a farmer bringing in a carrier animal from some out of town auction.  That is FAR more plausible in my mind.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 08:08:01 PM by Alan K »

Offline Mudman

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Re: Hoof Rot Confirmed by WDFW in Eastern Washington
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2018, 08:39:52 PM »
Are ya kidding?  Grouse took huge drop since the eighties.  Were you around then?  Hmm.  Nat Parks with no spraying have healthy elk, and grouse. WDFW cant even name it Trep but call it something else instead.  Lepto?  Not what independent science claims.  Why?  Why are these chems banned in most the civilized world but not here?  $ lobby?  U fooling yourself by ignoring basic facts.  Did you read the CDC report on Atrazine?  You should.  The other chems aren't good either.  Research em.  Atrazine, 2,4-D, Glyphosate, hexazinope, 4L, Crosshair, Transline, velpar DF.  I don't even know what some are, its an endless list.
MAGA

 

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