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Author Topic: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts  (Read 2166 times)

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2018, 06:10:18 PM »
I see the Lumi Tribe is going after the whole Puget Sound clear into Canada's waters as their's.

They send demands to the Feds that THEY need to be "contacted" over ANY thing that goes on ANY where on their "Sea"!!

Any example or source for “what you see”?

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2018, 07:33:38 PM »
The state has already repaired lots of culverts and has a lot to go.  I'm not well versed in the engineering, but the fix is install new culverts that do not prevent fish from passing up or down stream. 

The bigger issue is that the ruling basically means the treaty right to fish also means the state has an obligation not to harm fish populations to the point where that right is meaningless.  It's yet to be determined exactly what that means.  But, everything that harms salmon populations is potentially a violation of the treaty rights.  Think shopping malls, houses, dams, roads, pavement, etc.
It will take another challenge of something else, like what you mention above, to get a decision out of scotus regarding the limits of treaty rights...i.e., how much harm can be done to salmon before it's considered a treaty violation.

But given the 4-4 split I'm not sure the tribes will push their luck with the current court makeup.   :dunno:
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Offline Special T

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 10:01:14 PM »
The state has already repaired lots of culverts and has a lot to go.  I'm not well versed in the engineering, but the fix is install new culverts that do not prevent fish from passing up or down stream. 

The bigger issue is that the ruling basically means the treaty right to fish also means the state has an obligation not to harm fish populations to the point where that right is meaningless.  It's yet to be determined exactly what that means.  But, everything that harms salmon populations is potentially a violation of the treaty rights.  Think shopping malls, houses, dams, roads, pavement, etc.
It will take another challenge of something else, like what you mention above, to get a decision out of scotus regarding the limits of treaty rights...i.e., how much harm can be done to salmon before it's considered a treaty violation.

But given the 4-4 split I'm not sure the tribes will push their luck with the current court makeup.   :dunno:
If you look at the states compromise of the Hirst decision the tribes are doing an excellent job of setting themselves up for sucess. Common law depends upon precedence, which is a long game.

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Offline Humptulips

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2018, 10:51:06 PM »
fixing the culverts is a complete waste of money. Boondoggle!
The thing hurting salmon is made of monofilament and piles up in the bottom of a boat!
Been a number of culverts replaced around here and all I have seen many salmon above the culverts before the money was thrown at fixing them. Well, except one, a million dollar bridge to help fish passage does little when it is built above a series of three falls no fish has ever climbed.
On the other hand I could show you miles of excellent and historic spawning grounds cut off by the Cook Cr National Fish Hatchery on the QIN. :bash:
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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2018, 11:05:29 PM »
I'm very interested to see what the tribes' next move is.  I suspect they will just chip away at various things that harm fish in a tangible way.  Or maybe they'll sue the feds over all the dams on the Columbia system.

Time to sue the tribes for netting the rivers.  One of the biggest detriment to the decline.
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Offline Special T

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2018, 11:19:53 PM »
It is very hard to make drainage/salmon run specific changes when the tribes do not report on specifics. They report on aggrigate.

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Offline Slow-1

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 09:43:10 AM »
How can say “(why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?)”
When there are gill nets in the river during the time the native steelhead are running? I’m pretty sure that gill nets aren’t catch and release.

Offline 7mmfan

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 09:45:44 AM »
How can say “(why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?)”
When there are gill nets in the river during the time the native steelhead are running? I’m pretty sure that gill nets aren’t catch and release.

That's the point of that comment.
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Offline Slow-1

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 09:55:33 AM »
Ya I see that now. Well lets face it the real problem is the lack of farm buffers to much logging, and of course the evil little culverts.  :chuckle:

Offline Knocker of rocks

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2018, 10:18:43 AM »
http://www.newser.com/story/239140/scientists-confirm-worst-fears-about-pee-in-pools.html

An unknown in the decline of these fish is the accumulation of chemicals like Ace-K mentioned in the article, which pass thru humans (and presumably pets and farm animals) unaltered and with no ill-effects.   But how do they affect other orders like salmonids?

Offline 7mmfan

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2018, 10:28:35 AM »
There are definitely a lot of unknowns. The fact that they find trace amounts of opioids and other medications in fish and shellfish in the sound indicates that even treated sewage pumps all kinds of minerals and other stuff out into the water ways in high doses.
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Offline Humptulips

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2018, 10:43:11 AM »
Heard about a study done on the Queets by NPS. 95% of salmonids were intercepted by nets on the res. See the problem?
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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2018, 10:46:43 AM »
Man and Indian have become far too efficient at killing fish in large numbers.
Our fisheries management was 30 years too late to the party!

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2018, 03:06:41 PM »
Heard about a study done on the Queets by NPS. 95% of salmonids were intercepted by nets on the res. See the problem?

That would do it. I fished the Queets one weekend this year. I was thoroughly impressed that all the fish we caught were pristine, not a net mark on them. Even got to witness a tidal push of fish come through at dark, must have seen 50 rollers. That's what it could be like every day twice a day for months, if nets didn't kill them all.
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Offline 2MANY

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2018, 03:24:25 PM »
The Queets was an incredible fishery around 1980.

Just Sayin.

 

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