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Author Topic: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access  (Read 14346 times)

Offline cbond3318

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2018, 12:49:17 PM »
Before many of you ever heard of BHA I looked into the organization quite deeply, in fact there was a time I considered going to work for them because on the surface they seemed like a good group and at that time I could have used a little extra income, especially if it was made by promoting hunting for future generations. I sent a letter asking some questions about the creation and purpose of the organization, most of the questions were never answered and I received a phone call detailing how the group was created by Mitch Friedman as a front for Conservation Northwest to attract and involve hunters and anglers in their push to create more wilderness (one of CNW ultimate goals). I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus by saying who my source was and I cannot prove I was was being told facts, but when I asked BHA the hard questions they did not reply to them, that in itself raises questions in my mind. I will say the person seemed very knowledgeable about the inner workings of the top leadership of the group and detailed first hand knowledge regarding the creation, goals, and inner workings of BHA. From what I was told by that inside source I wanted nothing to do with BHA, and after finding the Green Decoys website it does not seem to be all conspiracy theory.

Some of the BHA loyalists may attack me, I really don't care. I do agree with some of what BHA promotes and at some point in the future I hope i can agree more with BHA as they become more of their own group and hopefully driven by a more diverse group of hunters and anglers than by the wilderness crowd. What matters to me is that we as a state and as a nation conserve hunting, fishing, and outdoor opportunities for all citizens, regardless of age or physical ability, and not just conserve opportunities for the physically fit users who can hike miles into the wilderness and who seem to dislike most forms of motorized recreation popular with many enthusiasts.

Conspiracy Theories
I was one of the early supporters of Donald Trump and was ridiculed at times because many people claimed Trump was totally off-base and whacko. Now we have learned that Trump's policies are bringing jobs back and the economy is booming. Business is better than ever and employment for nearly all demographics is at record levels or close to it. We are also learning that agencies within our government conspired to stop Trump from becoming president and that Hillary is the one they were promoting and the one who actually had collusion with Russia. It turns out that most of the evening news channels are owned by and promote left leaning interests, we have learned that much of what they report actually is fake news! To top that off, now even Obama is trying to take credit for Trump's economy!  :chuckle:

So here's some food for thought, before you blanketly accept the notion that BHA is looking out for all hunters best interests or that some of these websites are whackadoodle web sites, you might want to think about where our government was a couple years ago and what we have learned about previous claims of tinfoil hat theories that have turned into actual facts. I guess what I'm saying is keep an open mind, read all you can from all sides, and base your conclusions on what you see actually happening, not what someone tells you is fact.

Regarding limited access to public lands, I can tell you for a fact that it's a serious issue in Montana. There is a large amount of public lands with no public access. That my friends is a fact, so maybe considering that this article may not be entirely tinfoil hat whacko theory! Just sayin... look at the facts, in Montana this is a big issue already, and they are one of the stronghold states for BHA! Right now I don't have time to dissect the story and try to figure out if there is any factual basis involved or not, but remember, sometimes where there is smoke you will find fire, so I'm not going to figure it's all tinfoil crazy just because a few say it is!

Are you referencing public land in Montana that is inaccessible due to surrounding private land? Or public land we are not allowed to set foot on?
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Offline fireweed

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2018, 01:06:21 PM »
Loss of land access is a real issue. Period.  We have, every one of us, seen it.  I once volunteered with the USFS on an effort to use the Land and Water Conservation Fund to acquire private land within the Gifford Pinchot National Forest (from willing seller). 

For generations several trails went through this checkerboard area of about 2500 acres.  These trails passed several trout lakes and were open to all (horses, motorcycles, hikers, camping).  Logging occurred on both the public and private lands.
After the eruption of Mount St. Helens, all this land was traded to Big W.   Which for a few years was just like the old days.  But we know how that changed,  and you can guess what happened.  It was locked up then sold off.  No more public access--even to the old trails and historic routes--period.  No more public fishing, hunting by permission and/or permit only. And access to the rest of the USFS land and historic trails blocked. 

Our grant was unsuccessful, but this fund is still out there so perhaps someday the public can return.


Offline Special T

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2018, 01:11:15 PM »
Those old easements of trails should still be intact.... IF there was the will to push to keep it.
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Offline cbond3318

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2018, 01:57:28 PM »
So groups that are trying to aquire private land to allow access too and from our public lands are a bad thing? I am a member of BHA and I haven't seen one thing in their body of work that has made me question their mission or question whether that mission is of benefit to us as  sportsmen. I've gone through the Green Decoy site and they hang there claim on a portion of donation money coming from conservation, enviromental groups with a highlight on , dare I say, liberal money  :yike: Big deal, I don't care if you have a lifesize Obama poster over your bed, if you love our public lands, our wildlife and our wild places, you're a friend of mine when it comes to the outdoors. Period.

I just can't find evidence to substantiate a claim such as Green Decoy (and others) that these groups are fleecing hunters and anglers while slipping through the backdoor to end hunting and fishing. 

Just tend your own and live.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2018, 03:10:17 PM »
Before many of you ever heard of BHA I looked into the organization quite deeply, in fact there was a time I considered going to work for them because on the surface they seemed like a good group and at that time I could have used a little extra income, especially if it was made by promoting hunting for future generations. I sent a letter asking some questions about the creation and purpose of the organization, most of the questions were never answered and I received a phone call detailing how the group was created by Mitch Friedman as a front for Conservation Northwest to attract and involve hunters and anglers in their push to create more wilderness (one of CNW ultimate goals). I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus by saying who my source was and I cannot prove I was was being told facts, but when I asked BHA the hard questions they did not reply to them, that in itself raises questions in my mind. I will say the person seemed very knowledgeable about the inner workings of the top leadership of the group and detailed first hand knowledge regarding the creation, goals, and inner workings of BHA. From what I was told by that inside source I wanted nothing to do with BHA, and after finding the Green Decoys website it does not seem to be all conspiracy theory.

Some of the BHA loyalists may attack me, I really don't care. I do agree with some of what BHA promotes and at some point in the future I hope i can agree more with BHA as they become more of their own group and hopefully driven by a more diverse group of hunters and anglers than by the wilderness crowd. What matters to me is that we as a state and as a nation conserve hunting, fishing, and outdoor opportunities for all citizens, regardless of age or physical ability, and not just conserve opportunities for the physically fit users who can hike miles into the wilderness and who seem to dislike most forms of motorized recreation popular with many enthusiasts.

Conspiracy Theories
I was one of the early supporters of Donald Trump and was ridiculed at times because many people claimed Trump was totally off-base and whacko. Now we have learned that Trump's policies are bringing jobs back and the economy is booming. Business is better than ever and employment for nearly all demographics is at record levels or close to it. We are also learning that agencies within our government conspired to stop Trump from becoming president and that Hillary is the one they were promoting and the one who actually had collusion with Russia. It turns out that most of the evening news channels are owned by and promote left leaning interests, we have learned that much of what they report actually is fake news! To top that off, now even Obama is trying to take credit for Trump's economy!  :chuckle:

So here's some food for thought, before you blanketly accept the notion that BHA is looking out for all hunters best interests or that some of these websites are whackadoodle web sites, you might want to think about where our government was a couple years ago and what we have learned about previous claims of tinfoil hat theories that have turned into actual facts. I guess what I'm saying is keep an open mind, read all you can from all sides, and base your conclusions on what you see actually happening, not what someone tells you is fact.

Regarding limited access to public lands, I can tell you for a fact that it's a serious issue in Montana. There is a large amount of public lands with no public access. That my friends is a fact, so maybe considering that this article may not be entirely tinfoil hat whacko theory! Just sayin... look at the facts, in Montana this is a big issue already, and they are one of the stronghold states for BHA! Right now I don't have time to dissect the story and try to figure out if there is any factual basis involved or not, but remember, sometimes where there is smoke you will find fire, so I'm not going to figure it's all tinfoil crazy just because a few say it is!

Are you referencing public land in Montana that is inaccessible due to surrounding private land? Or public land we are not allowed to set foot on?

Yes, it's inaccessible due to lack of access, usually landlocked by private land.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2018, 03:30:52 PM »
So groups that are trying to aquire private land to allow access too and from our public lands are a bad thing? I am a member of BHA and I haven't seen one thing in their body of work that has made me question their mission or question whether that mission is of benefit to us as  sportsmen. I've gone through the Green Decoy site and they hang there claim on a portion of donation money coming from conservation, enviromental groups with a highlight on , dare I say, liberal money  :yike: Big deal, I don't care if you have a lifesize Obama poster over your bed, if you love our public lands, our wildlife and our wild places, you're a friend of mine when it comes to the outdoors. Period.

I just can't find evidence to substantiate a claim such as Green Decoy (and others) that these groups are fleecing hunters and anglers while slipping through the backdoor to end hunting and fishing.

My biggest complaint is their drive to take away multiple use access from the majority, which pushes more users into dwindling multiple use areas in order to create more wilderness for a minority. If BHA can purchase access easements or specific private property creating access to landlocked public lands, that seems like a win for the majority of users.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline fireweed

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2018, 03:59:37 PM »
I just got my new BHA magazine in the mail today and it has an article about this issue and the "green decoy" argument used against them.

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2018, 04:07:54 PM »
So groups that are trying to aquire private land to allow access too and from our public lands are a bad thing? I am a member of BHA and I haven't seen one thing in their body of work that has made me question their mission or question whether that mission is of benefit to us as  sportsmen. I've gone through the Green Decoy site and they hang there claim on a portion of donation money coming from conservation, enviromental groups with a highlight on , dare I say, liberal money  :yike: Big deal, I don't care if you have a lifesize Obama poster over your bed, if you love our public lands, our wildlife and our wild places, you're a friend of mine when it comes to the outdoors. Period.

I just can't find evidence to substantiate a claim such as Green Decoy (and others) that these groups are fleecing hunters and anglers while slipping through the backdoor to end hunting and fishing.

My biggest complaint is their drive to take away multiple use access from the majority, which pushes more users into dwindling multiple use areas in order to create more wilderness for a minority. If BHA can purchase access easements or specific private property creating access to landlocked public lands, that seems like a win for the majority of users.

BHA is not against motorized access.  Increases to Wilderness areas that we have supported are almost always within inventoried roadless areas that do not currently have legal motorized access.  Lots of our members use mountain bikes, ATVs, and vehicles to access they're hunting sites.

Also, I am 100% certain that you are mistaken about Mitch Friedman having anything to do with the formation of BHA.  I would love to hear more about your inside "source"

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2018, 05:12:22 PM »
If you do a little research it raises some questions about BHA? This is just some of what you can find and some of the cause for my concern about this group:

I'm wondering if the claims on this page are true or not?
https://www.greendecoys.com/decoys/montana-hunters-and-anglers/

Is funding coming from the sources quoted or not? Is the organization a front for liberal political activists or not? It sounds like they are putting big dollars into liberal political candidates, did they spend large amounts of money on political ads as mentioned or not?

Did MHA organize the Obama fly fishing trip to make Obama look like a sportsman? I'm wondering if Obama is as avid of a fly fisherman as he is a shooter?


Funding  (Is this true or not?)
https://www.greendecoys.com/decoys/backcountry-hunters-and-anglers/
Quote
When looking at BHA’s funding sources, it’s easy to forget they have anything to do with hunting and fishing at all. All of its primary donors have extensive ties to environmental activist organizations.

The largest donor is the Western Conservation Foundation, which gave $278,423 to BHA in 2011 and 2012 alone. WCF has given handsomely over the years to notorious environmentalists and animal rights activists, including the Natural Resources Defense Council, the Audubon Society, Earthjustice (the self-proclaimed “law firm of the environment”), and Climate Solutions, a major proponent of “global warming.” It has also contributed large sums to the Tides Center, funder of all things leftist. It’s hard to imagine Western Conservation Foundation would donate over a quarter of a million dollars to Backcountry Hunters and Anglers if it wasn’t an organization that shared those same ideological beliefs.

https://www.bowhunting.net/2017/02/the-damage-wolves-are-inflicting-on-america-part-2/
Quote
As was expected, Rehberg’s campaign office responded on its website, stating, “An environmental obstructionist front group calling itself ‘Montana Hunters and Anglers’ has spent nearly $250,000 from undisclosed sources running attack ads against Denny Rehberg. Leading that effort was the group’s President, Land Tawney, whom Tester also proudly declares to be an adviser to him in his official Senate duties. Tawney is an employee of the National Wildlife Federation.”

BHA Executive Director, Land Tawney
Worked for the National Wildlife Federation
https://www.shopnwf.org/Adoption-Center/index.cat
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2018, 06:35:59 PM »
So groups that are trying to aquire private land to allow access too and from our public lands are a bad thing? I am a member of BHA and I haven't seen one thing in their body of work that has made me question their mission or question whether that mission is of benefit to us as  sportsmen. I've gone through the Green Decoy site and they hang there claim on a portion of donation money coming from conservation, enviromental groups with a highlight on , dare I say, liberal money  :yike: Big deal, I don't care if you have a lifesize Obama poster over your bed, if you love our public lands, our wildlife and our wild places, you're a friend of mine when it comes to the outdoors. Period.

I just can't find evidence to substantiate a claim such as Green Decoy (and others) that these groups are fleecing hunters and anglers while slipping through the backdoor to end hunting and fishing.

My biggest complaint is their drive to take away multiple use access from the majority, which pushes more users into dwindling multiple use areas in order to create more wilderness for a minority. If BHA can purchase access easements or specific private property creating access to landlocked public lands, that seems like a win for the majority of users.

BHA is not against motorized access.  Increases to Wilderness areas that we have supported are almost always within inventoried roadless areas that do not currently have legal motorized access.  Lots of our members use mountain bikes, ATVs, and vehicles to access they're hunting sites.

Also, I am 100% certain that you are mistaken about Mitch Friedman having anything to do with the formation of BHA.  I would love to hear more about your inside "source"

So your not denying that BHA is promoting more wilderness! For me that's strike one, wilderness is out of reach for to too many users. I advocate for keeping the current levels of multiple use, roadless, and wilderness so that all users can maintain their current levels of opportunity outdoors.

I'm not mistaken about anything, I simply repeated what someone told me who knew I sent the message to BHA asking questions, it made sense they were involved with BHA or they wouldn't have known I sent the message, I can neither prove what they was said is true or false, it's simply what I was told, but it certainly raised questions for me? In reading about Land Tawney it seems his background is the National Wildlife Federation. So I have consider leadership strike two?

Funding sources and spending. What is written about where large amounts of money come from to BHA and associated groups and where it is being spent raises questions for me? Is this a group of left wing political activists as portrayed online? I don't see that written about other hunting groups, so for me that's strike three, but I do understand different people have different political views and sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2018, 06:39:07 PM »
I apologize for jacking the topic...  :sry:
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline NumaJohn

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2018, 07:48:48 PM »
Hello, all.

Aldo Leopold wrote that "Wilderness is a resource which can shrink but not grow.” So if there is some land out there in Washington that meets the federal requirements for wilderness according to the 1964 Wilderness Act, I think it makes sense for hunters (at least those who agree with the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation's tagline, "Hunting is Conservation") to look seriously at supporting designation of proposed wilderness areas and protection of existing ones.

Is it accurate that less than 10 percent of the State of Washington is actually designated as wilderness? If so, that leaves a great deal of front and backcountry for those who (for any number of legitimate reasons) cannot or choose not to access designated wilderness areas, and that holds true even if a few areas end up being added in the years to come, as a means of protecting wild but currently-unprotected resources that "can shrink but not grow."

Admittedly, if I look at the history of how habitat has been managed by the various entities (at the federal, state, and local levels), there is much to be disappointed about. But there is something special about roadless (even mostly roadless) backcountry, a sort of confirmation that we humans have not screwed everything up. Wilderness, even if we do not enter it, can offer a symbolic power for the wild within us all, just like the U.S. flag has a symbolic power for those of us who love our country.

Now, as a hunter, I often gravitate towards areas that have been logged, and so I personally can relate to the "hunting is better in areas that have created more feeding areas" argument. And I do understand that certain people see and even have experienced designated wilderness as a threat to their livelihoods. Some people see wilderness as a threat to their personal liberty or even their sense of what humans' relationship should be to the natural world ("We should conquer it!"). For me, wilderness enhances my sense of freedom as an American citizen. It reminds me what we have literally and figuratively that so many countries have squandered and will never see again. A romantic position, it's true, but I value wild places in a world that otherwise seems shockingly domesticated.

As an aside, I consider BHA THE best out there in terms of matching my ethics and interests as a hunter. By the way, I also hold a membership and invest additional dollars into supporting the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, with its different-but-also-important mission. Though I am not an NRA supporter--and the new President of RMEF has a 17-year stint with the NRA in his work history--I will look past that fact and hope that he is able to understand the overall mission of his current organization and do his job. Why wouldn't some of you critical of Land Tawney accord him the same treatment? And if the guy has a background with an organization dedicated to wildlife and wildlife habitat, is that all bad, necessarily? He's a hunter, after all, and as Dale cautions, we all have to be cautious about hunter groups weakening one another and thus us all. Shouldn't we at least give BHA and Land Tawney the benefit of the doubt?

Landlocking public access is a real issue, and for those who are seriously concerned about it, I encourage you to get memberships a.s.a.p. in organizations that have demonstrated their willingness to stand up and fight for the preservation of federal lands and for continued access to public lands. BHA does that.

John




"When we go afield to hunt wild game produced by the good earth, we search among the absolute truths held by the land, and the land, responding only to the law of nature, cannot be deceived."    

Jim Posewitz, Inherit the Hunt

Offline cbond3318

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2018, 07:26:00 AM »
Well said John, I will also add that in the matter of campaign donations against Rep. Denny Rehburg, do a little research and you will see the guy needed to be shutdown. He had quite the elitist view of our public lands being his personal refuge. MHA also donated too the libertarian candidate as well. So, beat Rehburg by any means neccessary makes sense to me.


Also, I am not sure you are aware Bearpaw but the Bowhunter.NET article you linked claims there is a tie between the Wolf Reintroduction and Agenda 21, or the UN plan to destroy humanity as we know it and force humans off the majority of the planet and into tiny safe cities.  :o  maybe it was a mistake.
Just tend your own and live.

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2018, 07:57:57 AM »
It is encouraging to see several folks pushing back against these tinfoil hat crowds labeling people as "green decoys".

I've enjoyed seeing Randy Newberg carry along his little green decoy rubber ducky.  There is no greater ambassador to public land hunters in this day and age....if hes a green decoy that just shows how insane these people are that push this green decoy bs.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

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Re: Hunters Beware: Landlocking Public Access
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2018, 08:36:10 AM »
I apologize for jacking the topic...  :sry:


No problem, it is related to the same agenda..

Interesting info..

One of the latest fronts in Big Green’s spider web

https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/backcountry-hunters-and-anglers/


IRS Complaint Targets Backcountry Hunters & Anglers

https://www.ammoland.com/2014/08/irs-complaint-targets-backcountry-hunters-anglers/#axzz5RYsJibZr
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 08:43:24 AM by wolfbait »

 


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SB 5444 signed by Inslee on 03/26 Takes Effect on 06/06/24 by hughjorgan
[Today at 09:03:26 AM]


Springer 2024 Columbia River by WSU
[Today at 08:31:10 AM]


Average by lhrbull
[Today at 07:31:56 AM]


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Which 12” boat trailer tires? by timberhunter
[Yesterday at 08:22:18 PM]

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