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Author Topic: Citori Feather Question  (Read 5140 times)

Offline ComradeBuck

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Citori Feather Question
« on: October 10, 2018, 02:13:44 PM »
Finally in the market for a nice upland gun (for the first time in my life). I have shot a lot of Citoris in my time and definitely prefer the feel of them to many of the other O/Us out there (Beretta's, the new Benellis, 101s, etc). They fit me and I shoot them well.

I have never handled a Citori Feather 12 gauge and never even seen one, but I have read good reviews and like the idea of them. I definitely carry my gun more than I shoot it, and less weight does appeal to me. However, where I hunt the pheasants are few and the pressure is high, I shoot a lot of 3'' shells. Apart from opening weekend, I run 3'' basically the whole time. I have some concerns about recoil with these magnum guns and the lighter weight of the Feather.

Does anybody have experience shooting magnum loads out of a 12g Feather? How bad is the "ouch". I don't do high volume shooting, but also don't want to buy a gun that makes me avoid magnum loads.

Just looking for thoughts/opinions...

Offline ComradeBuck

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2018, 02:15:36 PM »
Should add: I do quail and chuckar and grouse hunt, and the gun would be used for that as well...but I run 2.75'' lighter loads for them.

Offline Bill W

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2018, 03:45:12 PM »
I have a CZ Upland Ultralight that's supposed to weigh 6 lbs.  I'm in Moses Lake and if you want to try 3 inch in it let me know.  I shoot 3 inch duck loads out of a Citori 725 Field that weighs 7 lbs, 4 ounces, per the book.   

Offline ComradeBuck

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 09:51:20 PM »
Pretty crazy busy these next few weeks as I’m sure we all are this time of year, but I may take you up on that later if the offer stands. Have you fired 3”s through the CZ? How do they compare to the standard weight citori?

Offline Bill W

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 07:43:45 AM »
I only use the CZ when I'm after upland.  Haven't shot steel thru it other than upland steel which is usually 2 3/4 inch.   The 7 lb Citori i shoot all types of 3 inch loads thru it other than the hypervelocity stuff. 

Offline jackson7

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 02:16:10 PM »
Think it would depend on how much I am just pheasant hunting. My experience has been lots more shooting on the covey birds. For the occasional pheasant shot, have to say never felt it. Now doing it 20x a day might be a different story. Might think on going with larger shot.
good luck. 

Online CP

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 03:13:08 PM »
Pretty crazy busy these next few weeks as I’m sure we all are this time of year, but I may take you up on that later if the offer stands. Have you fired 3”s through the CZ? How do they compare to the standard weight citori?

I have the CZ U UL as well and it will rattle your teeth and make your nose run with heavy loads.  I expect the Browning is similar.  The laws of physics can't be avoided. 

Offline jetjockey

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 04:34:08 PM »
Since 3” shells are overkill for all upland birds, I wouldn’t worry about it.  Shoot some moderately paced 2 3/4” shells and find the gun you like.  Ive never succombed to the magnum crazy, and I never will.  I GUARANTEE you the birds I hunt are a hell of a lot more pressured than the birds in WA, yet I’ve never actually seen the need for a 12 bore.

Offline ComradeBuck

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 05:46:38 PM »
Respectfully disagree on the magnum loads, but do appreciate the response. Apart from opening weekend and a  rare heavy snowfall, it’s very  rare for us to get shots under 40 yards. Almost all going away. In the thick cover, I’ve found a 3” load of 4s really cuts down on unrecovered birds. Although I do have to hold off a bit  on the odd bird that gets up close.

The Feathers don’t seem to differ that much in weight from the standard beretta 686s. I like the feel and weight of them better than the standard Citori, but they just don’t fit well.

Thank you all for the food for thought as I make a purchase.

Offline jetjockey

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 06:28:37 PM »
You don’t need to use magnum loads for birds well beyond 50-60 yards.  Youve fallen into the magnum hype.  Fedearal Premium  2 3/4” loads shoot 1 1/4oz oz lead  at 1500 FPS.  If you can’t kill birds with that at 50-60 yards all day long, it’s not the load, it’s you.  Kent loads their 1 1/4 oz bismuth loads at 1350fps in 2 3/4” shells.  The 3” loads only ad 1/4 oz of shot.  If that 1/4 oz of shot is important, you need to pattern your gun and learn how to shoot, because in the real world, it won’t make a damn bit of difference.  Im killing tons of late season wild birds at 40-50 yards with 7/8 oz of #5’s at 1125fps with IC and MOD chokes.   BTW.  I ONLY shoot double guns.  If your looking for a good double and you like Brownings, just buy a Muroku, and save a lot of money on the name.  Unless you desperately need the name Browning next to Miroku, which is nearly, or the exact same gun at half the cost..

https://www.browning.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/firearms-manufactured.html

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 08:53:31 PM »
Sounds like some very personal opinions are being voiced.  I had the Feather in 12 ga but only shot it at the range at 5 stand.

If you like and want to run 3” mags then do it, it is a sweet shotgun. If you can afford one then by all means do it. The Feathers have a nice recoil pad on them and I am sure you won’t feel the difference between a 2-3/4” and 3” when shooting at a bird. 

If 3” is your go to then use what your confident with. Pattern it as mentioned as all ammo flies a bit different. 

Good luck and happy shooting!
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Offline nutntoit

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2018, 10:05:40 AM »
The Citori feather isn’t that light of a gun to begin with so I wouldn't be too worried about it. I shoot a 26in barreled Citori and it weighs 7.5 lbs. most feathers that I have seen weight around 7 pounds. I only shoot 3/4in shells out of it but I can definitely tell the difference between a target load and a heavy field load of 5s in that gun. I wouldn’t want to shoot 3in mag all day but if I had to in a hunting situation, it wouldn't bother me. Like you said, hunting involves more carrying your gun than shooting it anyway.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 11:53:10 AM by nutntoit »

Offline Bill W

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2018, 03:05:42 PM »
The current 12 gauge Citori Feather with a 26 inch barrel is listed at 6 lbs 7 ounces and has a 3 inch chamber.

Offline tlbradford

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2018, 03:34:51 PM »
If I am only pulling the trigger a few times a day, I really don't care how hard the recoil is.  In hunting situations you just don't really feel it.  Although, I do disagree with Jet Jockey on the magnum loads.  Better penetration of shot from the magnum loads is a factual statement.  More speed when it hits means more kinetic energy as well.  I'm not saying magnum loads will always be best out of your gun, but if they pattern well, they will be more lethal.  For me, I like the weight savings.  If you are shooting clays or trap, I would prefer a heavier gun.
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Offline jetjockey

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 04:50:41 AM »
The only thing a 3” she’ll gives you is 1/4oz more shot.  That 1/4 oz is useless if your shooting long shots with open chokes.  I’d be willing to bet that there aren’t many more bb’s in a pattern at 50+ yards, as a matter of fact, I know there aren’t.  All chokes have a simlar core pattern when shooting at 50-60+ yards.  While I do agree that speed kills, there’s plenty of speed in 4 and 5 shot to get more than enough penetration at 50-60 yards with shells shooting roughly 1200fps.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 05:00:35 AM by jetjockey »

Offline jetjockey

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2018, 09:37:33 AM »
This is a good read for shotgunners.  It explains choke and killing patterns.  Those 50+ yard shots have a very small killing pattern.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/longgun_reviews_st_headintheclouds_201002/99884#

Offline thinkingman

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2018, 10:08:05 AM »
 is nearly, or the exact same gun at half the cost..

https://www.browning.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/firearms-manufactured.html
[/quote]
Miroku doesn't catalog a lightweight (alloy) frame in the US.
There was one available in Europe, MK60.
The fit of a Miroku is definitely different than a Citori.
Other than that, you're right.
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.”
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Offline Gopackers

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2018, 08:30:04 AM »
We've (Wife and I) got both 12ga and 20ga in the Citori 525 Feather, and the Citori 725 Field (Two foot itess). About a pound difference is all, but I use the 12ga 725 way more often for hunting grouse, pheasant, and quail as the lengthened forcing cones on that version give me much better patterns than the 525 in 1 1/2 ounce 3" # 6's at 40 yards. She really likes her 525 Feather as its easier for her to carry around out in the field, and she doesn't shoot a whole lot of hunting shells thru it. You might want to try the 20ga 725 Field as there's a wide range of 3" loads now on the market that perform like 12ga 2 3/4 loads.

Offline GoBeavs85

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2018, 08:46:47 PM »
This is a good read for shotgunners.  It explains choke and killing patterns.  Those 50+ yard shots have a very small killing pattern.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/longgun_reviews_st_headintheclouds_201002/99884#
Wow learned a ton. Thank you for sharing!


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Offline jetjockey

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2018, 08:01:12 AM »
When I got my first O/U I messed with chokes all the time. I would shoot SK/IC for quail, and IC/Mod for bigger birds like pheasants.  Then I got lazy a couple times after pheasant hunts, and left the IC/Mod chokes in for quail. I quickly learned there wasn’t much difference, and I could even argue that the IC/Mod combo was better for quail as well. Now, I don’t screw with my chokes in my doubles,  and my single barrel guns all use Mod chokes.  Here’s the deal though, and here’s why I LOVE double guns.  Let’s say a bird gets up close, I don’t have to wait using a double because the speed at which my IC pattern opens.  And instead of waiting with close shots, I purposely try and keep the “core” pattern off the bird so I don’t destroy it, and believe it or not, it’s pretty easy to do at close range.  However, just because a bird rises at 35-40 yards doesn’t mean I will skip my IC barrel and go right to Mod, because like the article says, IC still has a 15” killing pattern a LONG way out, so it is well worth making the shot IMO.  I can tell you I’ve killed a lot of pheasants with IC in the 40-45 yard range because if that core pattern.......Now, let’s get back to magnum loads.  I believe it was Tom Rooster who studied pheasant kills and BB count.  If I remember correctly, the average dead pheasant in his study had 5 BB’s in it. That’s not a lot of BB’s.  Using Heavy Shot as an example, 1.5oz of Heavy Shot #4’s has 161 bb’s in it, and 1.25 oz has 134, for a difference if only 27 bb’s. The 3” heavy shot loads also have 25fps more velocity as well, but that is negligible.  27 bb’s and 25 FPS is not going to make any real world difference when killing upland birds, especially when you spread those 27bb’s out over a 30” pattern, which equals about 1 more BB per square inch, not including flyers which lowers that number even more. At the end of the day, that just isn’t enough to make any real world meaningful difference. Here’s a couple good articles to read.  The first is about shot size, velocity, etc.  The second is an article written about driven pheasant hunting, and what that author feels are some of the best choices in guns and ammo.  Notice that he suggests 32gram loads, which are slightly lighter than our 1 1/4oz loads.   These are guys who are shooting regularly at 50+ yards.


http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/shotgun/best-guns-for-high-pheasant-shooting

Offline jetjockey

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2018, 08:16:16 AM »
 Btw.  I didn’t mean to completely throw this thread off track. I just have a thing for shotguns, dogs, and wing shooting.  When I bought my 1923 LC Smith 20 gauge with 2 1/2” chambers that needed low pressure shells to keep from beating the stock up too much, I was sure that I’d need to open it it to 2 3/4 just to have a fighting chance at killing birds.  I thought there would be no way 7/8oz of #5’s at 1125fps would be enough to whack pheasants.   Boy was I wrong. That thing is a hammer on pheasants. My guess is because I shoot it really well and that core 15” pattern gets put on the birds at 45+ yards.   Being able to shoot is so much more important than magnum loads and ultra high velocity shells that the shell manufactures market as the end all be all for upland shooting.  If people actually knew that those shells don’t do much, they wouldn’t be willing to spend $15-$20 a box when $10 boxes do just as well.

Offline Henrydog

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2018, 09:10:35 AM »
I thought there would be no way 7/8oz of #5’s at 1125fps would be enough to whack pheasants.   Boy was I wrong. That thing is a hammer on pheasants.

Jet you are 100% correct.  I shoot competitive trap...and not being arrogant better then most.  I have shot over 15k shells this year and I reload 1k a month.  Shotguns are a majority of my waking hours besides work.

Most people do not understand patterns or chokes.  Most hunters (reading rifle ballistics) think faster is better.  It does vary gun to gun but in most cases speed actually causes to deform the pattern.   The pattern will have huge "holes" or gaps in it.  You think you center punched it but the bird keeps going.

Your experience is exactly correct.  A moderate speed lower pressure shell in a o/u or sxs is absolutely devastating.  A lot of speed in modern shells is due to steel shot being lighter and to also operate gas guns. 

Pattern your gun with a wide variety of shells.  You will be very surprised by the results

Offline jetjockey

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2018, 10:14:16 AM »
To add to what Henrydog said, here’s an article from Tom rooster that explains it well.  Tom Rooster is pretty much the smartest man in the world in regards to shotgun ballistics and lethality.

https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html

Offline Bill W

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2018, 01:08:51 PM »
For my lead loads all I reload to is 1200 and (maybe based on the recipe) a tad more.  1200 fps-ish is good enough for any upland.

Offline Henrydog

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2018, 01:16:47 PM »
For my lead loads all I reload to is 1200 and (maybe based on the recipe) a tad more.  1200 fps-ish is good enough for any upland.

100% correct.  That is all I shoot, and all I load. I shoot mainly Browning's (3 bt99's, Xt, CX, 2 BPS, and a superposed)  2 things I can say with the conviction of the gospel, Browning Chokes are looser than advertised, and every single one of them patterns a 1200fps load the best.

Offline tlbradford

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2018, 02:24:42 PM »
To add to what Henrydog said, here’s an article from Tom rooster that explains it well.  Tom Rooster is pretty much the smartest man in the world in regards to shotgun ballistics and lethality.

https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html

This is a great article.  Thank you for sharing.  To clarify my earlier statement, I was not arguing for magnum loads, just merely stating that a higher velocity bb will penetrate and hit harder than a lower velocity.  Personally, I hunt with 20 gauge 1 oz #6 and have no problems with going away or crossing shots on late season pheasants up to 50 yards.  For all other upland I am shooting 7-1/2 or 8's in the cheap Winchester target loads, low base.  This is out of a 1967 Beretta Golden Snipe.  I never have looked at the barrel chokes, but I would venture to guess they are Improved and Modified.  I will look tonight and let you know.
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Offline wildweeds

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Re: Citori Feather Question
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2018, 03:35:06 PM »
I've shot a 20 at roosters with pointing dogs for 21 years, and with springers 3 years prior to the pointing dog phase. 2 3/4 shells in 4,5,6 shot copper plated going 1350 fps. I personally go with what works , for me it's federal premiums, I tried the fiocci golden pheasant nickel plated 5s last week, not impressed, I ran to a Runnings store and got a box of federals and was back to normal. The bad part about western washington is the available merchandise at stores. Finding good lead shells is tough. I stocked up in North Dakota bought 4 boxes of my federals on sale for 13 bucks a box. The Runnings stores are quite well stocked.

 


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