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Author Topic: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice  (Read 12115 times)

Offline Fl0und3rz

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2018, 05:15:30 PM »
That might be the case,but someone who knows the law much better than any of us here made a determination that this guy was extreme risk.When confronted by police he fought and got shot.Regardless of why the cops were there in the first place fighting with the cops especially with a gun involved changes everything.

Did you read what I wrote? Because I said that.
Did I read what you posted before my post?No.Have I read what you posted yes and I agree with most of it.As the law is written now a person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor for filing a false complaint.If they are found guilty of filing a false complaint a judge can and probably would impose a fine and restitution plus lawyer fees to be awarded to the falsely accused person.The claims that there is no accountability to the accuser or petitioner is not true.

Irony of ironies, the false accuser has full due process protections and the presumption of innocence not afforded to the wrongly disenfranchised. 

The law requires no attorney fees or restitution, and, in fact specifies that there is no criminal or civil liabilty for reporting.

So there a gap so wide you can drive a bus through, between simple mistake and being found guilty of a gross misdemeanor of false reporting, whereas the law protects the accuser, but not the accused.

Let's hope you are not victim of the "due process protections" that you make apologies for.

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2018, 05:30:00 PM »
I don't worry about the red flag law being used against me because I know how to behave.Red flag laws are used against violent people with violent behavior of which I am neither.They may save an innocent girl or womans life from being taken by a violent angry psychopath and that is ok with me.

Offline Okanagan

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2018, 05:54:51 PM »
I don't worry about the red flag law being used against me because I know how to behave.Red flag laws are used against violent people with violent behavior of which I am neither.

Thy naivety passeth all understanding.

  According to Solzhenitsyn, millions who went to the gulag felt the same way.

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2018, 06:03:25 PM »
Save us from the terrible fate that awaits!

Offline Taco280AI

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2018, 06:09:09 PM »
I don't worry about the red flag law being used against me because I know how to behave.Red flag laws are used against violent people with violent behavior of which I am neither.They may save an innocent girl or womans life from being taken by a violent angry psychopath and that is ok with me.

Because nobody has ever been wrongfully accused, right? And it's okay to violate someone's constitutional rights, just in case...

Offline Fl0und3rz

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #80 on: November 14, 2018, 06:19:07 PM »
I don't worry about the red flag law being used against me because I know how to behave.Red flag laws are used against violent people with violent behavior of which I am neither.They may save an innocent girl or womans life from being taken by a violent angry psychopath and that is ok with me.


At who's cost?  You would sacrifice others' rights for a mere possibility?  It is possible that, if we deprive you of your 2A rights, or other rights, it may save someone's life.

Getting the picture, yet?

May your circumstances treat you more kindly. 

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #81 on: November 14, 2018, 06:34:44 PM »
If I thought that one of my sons was crazy enough to kill people without reason or just because he was mad I would turn him in without question.Leadship in my home comes from the top and thats me.We respect the law and the democracy that creates it.We don't fear the dark or the boogeyman or the zombie apocalypse.

Offline Fl0und3rz

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #82 on: November 14, 2018, 06:44:43 PM »
"May your chains set lightly upon you."


People have fought and died to ensure due process protections are here for future generations.

Are you seriously suggesting that people who revere such and question the wisdom of such weak "protections" are equivalent to being afraid of dark or the boogeyman or the zombie apocalypse.  Because we can have a discussion without personal attacks.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #83 on: November 14, 2018, 06:46:39 PM »
If I thought that one of my sons was crazy enough to kill people without reason or just because he was mad I would turn him in without question.Leadship in my home comes from the top and thats me.We respect the law and the democracy that creates it.We don't fear the dark or the boogeyman or the zombie apocalypse.

Who said it had to be you turning in your son?  It could be a teacher, his auntie, a friend...or it could be a scorned ex-girl friend.

I praise that you raise your son to respect law and order, but I think you're missing something if you don't also teach them civics. 
Our history is chock full of civil injustices and the suppression of freedoms clearly spelled out in our bill of rights.

You ought to include in your education basic civil rights, (our public schools won't do it)

Don't teach sheeple 101.  Think.

Offline Taco280AI

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #84 on: November 14, 2018, 06:47:58 PM »
If I thought that one of my sons was crazy enough to kill people without reason or just because he was mad I would turn him in without question.Leadship in my home comes from the top and thats me.We respect the law and the democracy that creates it.We don't fear the dark or the boogeyman or the zombie apocalypse.

You are entirely missing the point and have a very narrow field of view. I guess some people just don't get it.  :dunno:

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #85 on: November 14, 2018, 07:04:18 PM »
Funny,I was thinking the same thing about many that have posted on this topic.The reality is if the government comes to take your guns it will end one of two ways.You surrender your guns or die defending them,either way the guns will be taken.I choose not to let it drive me mad worrying about it.

Offline Fl0und3rz

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #86 on: November 14, 2018, 07:21:11 PM »
"You surrender your guns or die defending them,either way the guns will be taken."

Which is kind of the point about advocating for strong, real due process protections and statutory civil liability and restitution provisions.  This is so that it doesn't become just another tool in family law cases as has alleging DV and receiving a TRO, etc.

If you look back, you are likely to find support for extreme risk protection orders, myself included, in the abstract.  The battleground is whether mickey mouse "due process protections" and provisions avoidance of abuse is sufficient.  It is no secret that WA and King County takes a dim view of 2A rights.  Add 4A and 5A rights to that, now, to thunderous applause.

SMH.

You gain no allies with ERPOs, if the rights of the accused are not properly balanced with the hypothetical rights of a potential future victim, who may never otherwise materialize, as with WA's implementation.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 09:57:08 PM by Fl0und3rz »

Offline Special T

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2018, 07:34:04 PM »
Tinmaniac I agree that in the current state of society if the man with a badge and gun show up discretion is the better part of decision making.

If you've ever had some one you know had false accusations made against them you will quickly find out why caution and skepticism is well earned. Perhaps everything will work out the way you believe in Maryland. I think those your disagreeing with would likely relocate.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline Tinmaniac

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2018, 08:18:06 PM »
Like it or not the writing is on the wall for gun control.The pile of bodies has gotten to big and the current system is broken.It won't matter where you live it's just a matter of time.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: "Red Flag" Laws in Practice
« Reply #89 on: November 14, 2018, 09:07:01 PM »
Like it or not the writing is on the wall for gun control.The pile of bodies has gotten to big and the current system is broken.It won't matter where you live it's just a matter of time.

That pile of bodies is deepest in the states with the most gun laws, coincidently.  Now that WA has some of the toughest gun laws of any state, does that mean we'll see a big uptick in our own pile of bodies?

 


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