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Author Topic: the Methow is even worse off than I thought  (Read 54233 times)

Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #210 on: May 04, 2019, 07:32:01 PM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

This is exactly what I am talking about!! I think you have been an avid hunter most of your life? Most likely from a hunting family? Yet here you are quoting their narrative and using their number one excuse to explain away dwindling herds. The other side won in Washington overpopulation of predators is killing off any huntable populations of ungulates. Look at the methow and your permit numbers. This is exactly what they wanted. The evidence is staring us all in the face and you still quote their narrative and thereby promote their agenda? Even a few years ago I could understand this but not now. Anti hunting groups posing as environmental groups protected predators as a means to end hunting as we know it. And you’re still willing to buy their bs propaganda?  The other side won in Washington and your deer and elk lost. But I know it’s all those damn houses. Funny thing is all the elk and deer in Idaho moved to town to get away from the wolves. Please think about the state of Washington game herds and seriously consider the facts. Is it really habitat loss that created such sharp declines? Everything the tin foil conspiracy guys on here warned about is coming true. Some of them were mocked but it’s playing out exactly as was said. Just look at the on the ground facts not the propaganda you read.
I'd agree with a lot here.  The houses and expansion have affected the access and huntable areas, but many animals seem to do really well in those types of areas.  When the development is to a point that humans don't tolerate predators and the deer get a safe area, they can really take off.  Some of the suburban areas have deer densities at something like 100x what the wilderness and national forests have.

Offline bigmacc

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #211 on: May 07, 2019, 11:00:09 AM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats" :dunno:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 05:00:48 PM by bigmacc »

Offline nwwanderer

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #212 on: May 07, 2019, 11:11:55 AM »
bigmacc gets it, not just the Methow, applies to most of Washington

Offline Utah

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #213 on: May 07, 2019, 07:57:11 PM »
ftp://
So what's the solution here? Remove OTC for muleys for a few years? I've never hunted muleys but based on the posts in this forum it sounds like it may be an unwise decision to do so.

Predators need dead.  Especially cougar and bear and the game dept knows it and is flat out scared to fight  treetards.  WFGD is worthless
Your every Liberal vote is a direct attack on the Second Amendment and a vote for Socialism.  You WILL suffer the consequences.

Offline no.cen.wa

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #214 on: May 07, 2019, 10:20:09 PM »
You said it right "bigmacc" , the Dept sucks, I went to 2 public meetings this year on the west side, they were 2 hours of fisherman bitching! Couldn't get a word in hardly. So, the Dept. pretty much screws up EVERYTHING we care about! I'm pretty much a predator hunter first now, then I'll see about deer.
John G

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #215 on: May 07, 2019, 10:38:02 PM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats" :dunno:
I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline huntnphool

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #216 on: May 07, 2019, 10:48:40 PM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats" :dunno:
I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?

 You are right Idaho, there is no predator problem. The problem is the habitat loss due to all the track housing and development across the Mathew the last ten years....how have we missed this!!!

 Wake up and smell the *censored* you're shoveling man!... .SMFH
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline MtnMuley

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #217 on: May 07, 2019, 11:08:48 PM »
 :yeah:

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #218 on: May 07, 2019, 11:23:24 PM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats" :dunno:
I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?

 You are right Idaho, there is no predator problem. The problem is the habitat loss due to all the track housing and development across the Mathew the last ten years....how have we missed this!!!

 Wake up and smell the *censored* you're shoveling man!... .SMFH
Your vulgar and personal attacks dont seem to add a lot of value  :dunno:  Can you answer the question?  How many months until all the deer are gone...its simple supply...the deer are declining rapidly and the predators are increasing exponentially...that cant last forever hp...so answer the question...seems you should know since you are so smart?  Give a specific timeline so the rest of us that dont hunt that area know what to expect.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline huntnphool

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #219 on: May 07, 2019, 11:40:45 PM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats" :dunno:
I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?

 You are right Idaho, there is no predator problem. The problem is the habitat loss due to all the track housing and development across the Mathew the last ten years....how have we missed this!!!

 Wake up and smell the *censored* you're shoveling man!... .SMFH
Your vulgar and personal attacks dont seem to add a lot of value  :dunno:  Can you answer the question?  How many months until all the deer are gone...its simple supply...the deer are declining rapidly and the predators are increasing exponentially...that cant last forever hp...so answer the question...seems you should know since you are so smart?  Give a specific timeline so the rest of us that dont hunt that area know what to expect.

 Vulgar and personal attacks? How about you post up the "attacks" that hurt your feely feely's! :chuckle:

 It's interesting you continue to bloviate your opinion in this thread, yet admit you don't hunt the area or know what to expect. :chuckle:

 Clearly just another wolf loving antagonist on this forum IMO :twocents:
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #220 on: May 08, 2019, 04:55:51 AM »
Now that we got that off our chests
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Offline Igor

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #221 on: May 08, 2019, 05:06:56 AM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats" :dunno:
I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?

 You are right Idaho, there is no predator problem. The problem is the habitat loss due to all the track housing and development across the Mathew the last ten years....how have we missed this!!!

 Wake up and smell the *censored* you're shoveling man!... .SMFH
Your vulgar and personal attacks dont seem to add a lot of value  :dunno:  Can you answer the question?  How many months until all the deer are gone...its simple supply...the deer are declining rapidly and the predators are increasing exponentially...that cant last forever hp...so answer the question...seems you should know since you are so smart?  Give a specific timeline so the rest of us that dont hunt that area know what to expect.

 Vulgar and personal attacks? How about you post up the "attacks" that hurt your feely feely's! :chuckle:

 It's interesting you continue to bloviate your opinion in this thread, yet admit you don't hunt the area or know what to expect. :chuckle:

 Clearly just another wolf loving antagonist on this forum IMO :twocents:

I know that you spend quite a bit of time in the Methow, scouting and hunting.  I'm curious as to how many cougars you have actually seen in the Methow in, say, the last 5-6 years ?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 05:19:53 AM by Igor »
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Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #222 on: May 08, 2019, 05:41:42 AM »
Are you talking see in person or on cam. It also depends on the area of the Methow. You will see more cougar in the upper part of the valley as opposed to the lower say from Carlton down. Reason being the deer are a lot fewer and far between in the lower Methow.
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Offline idahohuntr

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #223 on: May 08, 2019, 08:13:39 AM »
Just FYI - There are far more than 4000 elk in Yellowstone NP. They just counted 5800 in the northern herd and this just inside the park, that doesnt count the other herds in the GYE.  Im not pro wolf, whatever that means.  I like to see pictures of dead ones and I like that they exist on the landscape at the same time. I agree they need to be aggressively managed and we cant start hunting them here in WA soon enough.

I still think loss of habitat and our own human expansion is the biggest issue for the Central WA deer herds decline.  Not to mention the recent fires and roads everywhere that see year round traffic.   I 100% agree though, we need better predator management, let the hounds men do their thing.
Spot on.  Human expansion and associated habitat degradation don't leave teeth marks like a wolf so people have a harder time "seeing" the effects.  No doubt, it is a major factor in long-term wildlife abundance for many parts of the Western US.

Well, cougars "don't leave teeth marks like a wolf' either, nor does a bear or a coyote, they are all different and their populations are and have been growing and expanding in this valley over the last 25 or so years. As far as the Methow herds decline goes, many different reasons, once again my top 3-Predators, mis management of predators and mis management of the herd itself, loss of habitat is way down the list, IF even on the paper. There is a lot of country in this valley A LOT and like some have said there is a lot of feed in this valley, even after the fires there was still an abundance of feed in some great historic winter range in the north part of the valley which is where we would see THOUSANDS of deer wintering before the predator boom, now and even before the fires you are lucky to see 50 out and about on a December weekend, the building of houses didn't cause that big of a drop over the last 25 or so years. The time frame of the start of this herds drastic decline coincides with 3 events, the outlawing of hounds and how we were able to hunt predators in this valley, the arriving of the wolf in this valley and the doing away of the Department of Game. Yep, the population of humans is growing in the valley and the deer don't seem to mind, but a lot of those folks are not hunter friendly (which doesn't do us as hunters any good, but offers the deer safety) and they feed them, plus there presence seems to serve as a buffer from wolves, cats, bears and yotes, for crying out loud for a 3 day period I seen a group of does and bucks inhabit a guys lawn and patio, even laying on his outdoor furniture! Fact is, what deer are left in this valley seem to be attracted to civilization for survival and thats not the way it should be but if you were being pursued by predators 24/7/365 you learn to adapt to survive. Its hard to argue with folks who know this valley like the back of their hand and have history here(yes, I am one) and there are many, and yes some have been tormented for their beliefs but like others have said its all coming to truth, wolf populations are here and are growing and they are killing a lot of deer, cougar numbers are booming and they are killing even more deer, coyotes are growing and killing yearlings and fawns and bear numbers are growing and taking out lots of fawns and these killers ARE NOT being managed for the health and growth of this mule deer herd, in fact the way they(predators) are being managed is doing the exact opposite for this herd. You want to know why you could see thousands of deer over a weekend in December in the Methow 25-30 years ago and now you are lucky to see 50, its not fires and houses because the decline was already in full swing before the house boom and it was in full swing before the fires, come on now, is it really just a coincidence this all started when wolves showed up and the gloves were put on concerning how we hunt cougar and bear AND the Game Department went away?....Well you know what, maybe some others are "wearing the tin foil hats" :dunno:
I guess you will be proven right very soon then...predators are at insanely high levels and the prey are nearly extinct.  So the last few surviving deer will be eaten by the massive number of wolves, cougars, and bears...all hunting will end in the methow and that will be that.  My question to you, since you are an authoritative figure with extensive knowledge of this herd...Do you think all the methow deer will be gone before this fall or will they make it one more year?  Certainly there wont be any left in 2 years at the rate predators are increasing...right?

 You are right Idaho, there is no predator problem. The problem is the habitat loss due to all the track housing and development across the Mathew the last ten years....how have we missed this!!!

 Wake up and smell the *censored* you're shoveling man!... .SMFH
Your vulgar and personal attacks dont seem to add a lot of value  :dunno:  Can you answer the question?  How many months until all the deer are gone...its simple supply...the deer are declining rapidly and the predators are increasing exponentially...that cant last forever hp...so answer the question...seems you should know since you are so smart?  Give a specific timeline so the rest of us that dont hunt that area know what to expect.

 Vulgar and personal attacks? How about you post up the "attacks" that hurt your feely feely's! :chuckle:

 It's interesting you continue to bloviate your opinion in this thread, yet admit you don't hunt the area or know what to expect. :chuckle:

 Clearly just another wolf loving antagonist on this forum IMO :twocents:
Your language doesn't bother me personally, it just doesn't add a lot of value.

Why wont you give your best estimate on the question I posed? You say predators are skyrocketing and deer are declining rapidly...that cant be sustained.  So how long before the deer are gone?

And if you actually read what I've posted, and others have posted, nobody is disputing predator issues.
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Offline MADMAX

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Re: the Methow is even worse off than I thought
« Reply #224 on: May 08, 2019, 08:20:09 AM »
Was just there all around the lower valley areas up to Ramsey /Cub creek /Rendevous
spend an average of 3-4 weeks a year over there

saw a couple of coyotes
Have seen over the years a few bears
never seen a bobcat or cougar walking, seen a couple kills over the years from other deer hunters and read the papers reports
its sad
hardly any mule deer so to answer your question, they will never be "gone" completely IMO
But they sure have taken a major reduction
with all the wolf and cougar discussions I have not seen ravens on kills or found any significant amount of predator kills either
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