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Author Topic: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?  (Read 3048 times)

Offline wooltie

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how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« on: January 17, 2019, 03:03:44 PM »
Wondering if anyone would share their process for evaluating whether a new load, or specifically a particular bullet has the potential to group well.

I am going to test a different bullet/powder soon to see if it has potential to group well, and seeing how I'm new to reloading I am wondering what others do to vet potential loads.

I've tried two different powders (4064/4035), at various charge weights and seating depths in an effort to get 165g or 180g accubonds to group in my 30-06.  165g performed better than the 180g.  At most I could get 3/5 shots to shoot MOA at 100 yards from the bench.  Alternatively, factory ammo 150g interlocks group .5-.75 MOA @ 100 yards all day long.

Offline jasnt

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2019, 04:11:46 PM »
What is your current process of load development?   If the gun and shooter are capable of .5-.75 you should have no troubles getting sub moa from a bullet the gun likes even with a poor charge.    Normally if I have to work hard to get moa I’ll try a different bullet.   If you like nosler I’d try the bt’s they seem to be easy to load for.  But maybe the issue is in your load development. 
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Offline hunter399

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2019, 04:37:14 PM »
If it was me I would try interlocks or sst bullet as close to 150 gr you can get.stick a factory load in your seating die and set your COL.same as factory.Use min and max load data and start in the middle for powder charge and work up to max looking for best groups.
If really got to have accubonds did you try seating them same as your factory ammo some rifles like a jump to the lands.

But this is what I would do,Im sure many on here tell you I'm wrong or different.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 05:02:27 PM by hunter399 »
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Offline wooltie

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2019, 05:33:06 PM »
What is your current process of load development?   If the gun and shooter are capable of .5-.75 you should have no troubles getting sub moa from a bullet the gun likes even with a poor charge.    Normally if I have to work hard to get moa I’ll try a different bullet.   If you like nosler I’d try the bt’s they seem to be easy to load for.  But maybe the issue is in your load development.

So in your experience if a gun likes a particular bullet then it should be fairly evident e.g. MOA?

I wanted to use ABs, but I am not set on them.  I would load up 4-5 rounds per charge weight.  Each charge weight would be .3 g apart.  I would shoot 5-6 charge weights, typically 2.0 g under book max to book max.  Watching for pressure signs and using a chrono to measure velocity on a round for each charge weight...I know I'm okay shooting 2g under max to max with 4064/4035 having fired enough rounds.  I would evaluate the each group of charge weight and also POI (OCW style.)

Results with ABs were that 2-3 would be MOA, then 1-2 rounds would be 2-4" up/down/right/left of the group --  no discernible pattern.  I used the same reloading method / powder / primer / case to load 165g SGK and would see 3-4 charge weights basically group MOA with similar POI.

I also loaded up some AB for my other 30-06 and observed similar results as I saw shooting the 165g SGK in my model 70.

For fun, I last loaded up 150g AB and 150g partitions -- loaded during the same session using same brass / powder / primer / charge weight, then shot them.  The 150g partitions grouped MOA, way less left to right (mostly vertical spread).  The ABs did group better (for ABs), but still had those 2 rounds that stray 2-3" from the group.

I think my reloading process is "okay" for just wanting a consistent MOA load out to 3-350 yards, but I think I've been chasing a bullet that my rifle just doesn't like.  And I have benchmark barrel installed, and soon a manners will be added to the setup.


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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2019, 05:43:01 PM »
I like to work up to pressure with charge weight first then back off a bit. After I find max and a velocity window I like I will wrk with seating depth. There is an article that Berger put out that gives a good seating depth test. You should be able to dind it by google.

For the 30-06 and 165-180 bullets I would look at imr4350 as a starting point.

Offline jasnt

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2019, 03:52:17 AM »
I’ve read those ab’s can be finicky.  Try that seating depth test mentioned above before you give up but to me it sounds like the rifle dosent like em.
https://www.howlforwildlife.org/take_action  It takes 10 seconds and it’s free. To easy to make an excuse not to make your voice heard!!!!!!

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline wooltie

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2019, 06:29:13 AM »
I’ve read those ab’s can be finicky.  Try that seating depth test mentioned above before you give up but to me it sounds like the rifle dosent like em.

I did at one point last year after I was not seeing the ABs group.  I read that ABs can like a lot of jump, so I thought jump might be the culprit.  But the seating test did not provide any groups.  I just basically concluded that the rifle doesn't like ABs because I've seen other bullets and loads group well (using same loading process, me, shooting from bench, etc.)

But I'll note what you said about a given bullet tending to group well regardless of charge if the gun likes it.  That's kinda the starting point I'm looking for.  I use proven powders (imr 4064/4350, H4350), full length resize brass, clean primer pockets, tumble brass, measure, trim, chamfer and deburr cases, seat off the ogive.  I think the only thing I don't do is mess with neck tension or adjusting the case shoulder.

It is kind of like pick which assumption you'll use as a starting point. 

Offline theleo

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2019, 07:41:35 AM »

I did at one point last year after I was not seeing the ABs group.  I read that ABs can like a lot of jump, so I thought jump might be the culprit.  But the seating test did not provide any groups.  I just basically concluded that the rifle doesn't like ABs because I've seen other bullets and loads group well (using same loading process, me, shooting from bench, etc.)

But I'll note what you said about a given bullet tending to group well regardless of charge if the gun likes it.  That's kinda the starting point I'm looking for.  I use proven powders (imr 4064/4350, H4350), full length resize brass, clean primer pockets, tumble brass, measure, trim, chamfer and deburr cases, seat off the ogive.  I think the only thing I don't do is mess with neck tension or adjusting the case shoulder.

It is kind of like pick which assumption you'll use as a starting point.
Is all your brass the same brand? If not you can be fighting an uphill battle.

If you're looking for AB type performance you could try Interbbonds and Sciroccos as well.

Offline wooltie

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2019, 07:59:47 AM »

I did at one point last year after I was not seeing the ABs group.  I read that ABs can like a lot of jump, so I thought jump might be the culprit.  But the seating test did not provide any groups.  I just basically concluded that the rifle doesn't like ABs because I've seen other bullets and loads group well (using same loading process, me, shooting from bench, etc.)

But I'll note what you said about a given bullet tending to group well regardless of charge if the gun likes it.  That's kinda the starting point I'm looking for.  I use proven powders (imr 4064/4350, H4350), full length resize brass, clean primer pockets, tumble brass, measure, trim, chamfer and deburr cases, seat off the ogive.  I think the only thing I don't do is mess with neck tension or adjusting the case shoulder.

It is kind of like pick which assumption you'll use as a starting point.
Is all your brass the same brand? If not you can be fighting an uphill battle.

If you're looking for AB type performance you could try Interbbonds and Sciroccos as well.

Yes, I use winny brass and CCI primers.  Wanted to use the ABs because I am looking for a bullet that would gimme a pass through on bears out to 300 yards if I had to shoot that far.  Going to try 165g partitions next.  Hadn't thought about interbonds, however.

Thought about using barnes, but they are expensive to practice with and I'd rather not mix barnes and non-barnes for practice in the barrel.

Offline jasnt

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2019, 08:10:48 AM »
When I’m starting load development I’ll start with a low charge.  Load up some 3 shot groups starting at .015” off the landes or mag length which ever is shorter and seat each group deeper by .030”.   
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter.   Look for my upper flat spot near max.  Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments. 
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.   
This is my method that’s worked well for me.   Yrmv
Have you looked at hammer bullets?
https://www.howlforwildlife.org/take_action  It takes 10 seconds and it’s free. To easy to make an excuse not to make your voice heard!!!!!!

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline wooltie

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2019, 08:25:05 AM »
When I’m starting load development I’ll start with a low charge.  Load up some 3 shot groups starting at .015” off the landes or mag length which ever is shorter and seat each group deeper by .030”.   
Which ever shot best I’ll use that seating depth for my load work. I shoot a ladder over my chrono ( I use magneto speed, must have an accurate chrono for this!) target dosent matter.   Look for my upper flat spot near max.  Then I’ll load up 5 shot groups and fine tune my seating depth in .005” increments. 
If you don’t have a magneto speed or labradar then you could do 3 shot ladder test at 300 yards.   
This is my method that’s worked well for me.   Yrmv
Have you looked at hammer bullets?

I was going to use this approach on my next load dev.  Assuming a bullet will group if the gun likes it, figuring out seating depth first makes sense.  I do have a magneto speed and can shoot ladders out to 200 yards.

Offline jasnt

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2019, 08:35:29 AM »
No need for a target if using the magneto speed.  Just look for flat spots.
Example

1. 2712
2. 2765
3. 2798
4. 2831
5. 2871
6. 2934
7. 2975
8. 3015
9. 3020
10. 3051

#8 and 9 have a 5fps spread. That’s a node you’d want to test
https://www.howlforwildlife.org/take_action  It takes 10 seconds and it’s free. To easy to make an excuse not to make your voice heard!!!!!!

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline wooltie

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2019, 08:41:32 AM »
Yea, see when I first start reloading I used chrono because I like data.  I shot a 10 shot group that had a standard dev of <10 fps, but the rounds didn't group at all.

I realized that you gotta get the load to group first then use the chrono to find a flat spot.

In my mind it makes sense to dial in seating depth first and minimize the right/left, then focus on charge to minimize the vertical.  I like addressing one aspect at a time.

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2019, 10:16:27 AM »
Wondering if anyone would share their process for evaluating whether a new load, or specifically a particular bullet has the potential to group well.

I am going to test a different bullet/powder soon to see if it has potential to group well, and seeing how I'm new to reloading I am wondering what others do to vet potential loads.

I've tried two different powders (4064/4035), at various charge weights and seating depths in an effort to get 165g or 180g accubonds to group in my 30-06.  165g performed better than the 180g.  At most I could get 3/5 shots to shoot MOA at 100 yards from the bench.  Alternatively, factory ammo 150g interlocks group .5-.75 MOA @ 100 yards all day long.

You should just sell your reloading stuff and buy a few boxes of factory ammo! :chuckle:
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Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: how to tell if a load / bullet has potential?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2019, 10:33:16 AM »
I do not subscribe to the "my gun doesnt like them" theory.  I've never not been able to make a bullet shoot in a gun.  The load isnt always optimal and may be a PITA to find but there is always a charge/seating depth combo that will work.  I've done load development on easily 100+ rifles and have never been proven wrong.

20 thou off the lands in .2gr increments up to pressure over a chronograph.  Find the velocity node.  Go to the middle of it, then tune seating depth.  Once your happy you can go back and tweak powder to pinch some more velocity out of it if you so choose.

AB like to jump a bit in my experience.  After velocity node is established try 40, 60, and 80 thou off lands.  Betting 60 is your sweet spot :chuckle:
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