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Author Topic: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder  (Read 3586 times)

Offline EWUeagles

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2019, 01:16:54 PM »
I have been insulting you are right but only because you talk about how great you are at non ethical shots.

No I actually haven't. I said I wouldn't hesitate to take a turkey at 60 and that isn't bragging. A lot of people are patterning to 60 with the latest ammo/choke combos. It's really nothing to brag about.

Would you take a 600 or 700 yard shot on a buck?.

No I wouldn't. Too much wind variability at that range.

You asked why people bash 3.5 inch shells and I said because I believe it leads to more unethical shots. Also thank you for proving my point 100%. Good luck on turkeys and if you head west this weekend I’ll buy shells and the beer.

I think your concern about 60 yard shots doesn't take modern ammo or chokes into account. I'd suggest reading about it and if you are still skeptical I'd be happy to come by some time when I am out that way and shoot some targets.
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/winchesters-long-beard-xr-turkey-loads-perfect-60-yard-shot/

I'm not debating whether modern equipment can or can't do something because I'm sure it can. I used to be able to shoot a bow a 100 yards and every time hit a dinner plate but that doesn't mean I should try that shot at an animal. I'll always agree with AWS about his points on 3.5 shells. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. When you extend you're range you increase the likelihood of injuring an animal. Would you disagree with that? With that in mind I talk about working the animals in close and making a more ethical shot. As hunters it is our duty to make those shots ethical and not wound animals. At 60 yards there is less room for error than there is at 20 yards.

If you're comfortable shooting at 60 yards that's awesome. Patterning your gun at a range and taking a shot at an animal at that ranger a little different. For me I would rather let that turkey walk (which I have done hundred of times) than take a long shot.

Back to why I don't like 3.5 shells. I think it gives people the false sense of distance they can shoot, but ones own ability rarely matches the equipment. This may not apply to you but it still holds true for most people out there. I wish more people would work birds in (turkey and waterfowl) than take longer shots.

I already offered to buy shells and beer...

Offline HaydenHunter

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2019, 03:58:20 PM »
Back in the day when I did shoot 3.5s through my SBE it killed my shoulder until I bought an aftermarket recoil pad (Limbsaver brand).  A noticeable improvement, but it still kicked pretty hard.

One day I woke up and decided I did not need / want to shoot 3.5s any more and life has been beautiful ever since.

Offline konradcountry

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2019, 07:39:29 PM »
I'm not debating whether modern equipment can or can't do something because I'm sure it can. I used to be able to shoot a bow a 100 yards and every time hit a dinner plate but that doesn't mean I should try that shot at an animal.

Sure but at that range you have the risk of the deer jumping the shot even if you can hit a dinner plate so it's an entirely different scenario.

The 60 yard turkey shot is not the same category or even close.

If you are against 60 yard turkey shots then you should probably be against slug and muzzle hunting. I would bet more people miss on a 100 yard smoothbore shotgun (no scope) shot than on 60 yard turkey.

Back to why I don't like 3.5 shells. I think it gives people the false sense of distance they can shoot, but ones own ability rarely matches the equipment. This may not apply to you but it still holds true for most people out there.

I don't doubt that there are people that buy them for the wrong reasons. Same is true for all kinds of equipment.

But my guess is that the worst shooters are buying the cheapest equipment which isn't 3.5. So I wouldn't make assumptions about people that buy 3.5.

Any public area away from the water (pass shooting) will have far more cheap brand 2.5 and 3 inch shells on the ground. Maybe you have met some people that followed your assumption but I doubt it matches the real world. I would bet that the typical 3.5 hunter bought one for geese and uses 3" most of the time. Probably no where close to your stereotype.

Offline EWUeagles

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2019, 08:34:30 AM »
I'm not debating whether modern equipment can or can't do something because I'm sure it can. I used to be able to shoot a bow a 100 yards and every time hit a dinner plate but that doesn't mean I should try that shot at an animal.

Sure but at that range you have the risk of the deer jumping the shot even if you can hit a dinner plate so it's an entirely different scenario.

The 60 yard turkey shot is not the same category or even close.

If you are against 60 yard turkey shots then you should probably be against slug and muzzle hunting. I would bet more people miss on a 100 yard smoothbore shotgun (no scope) shot than on 60 yard turkey.

Back to why I don't like 3.5 shells. I think it gives people the false sense of distance they can shoot, but ones own ability rarely matches the equipment. This may not apply to you but it still holds true for most people out there.

I don't doubt that there are people that buy them for the wrong reasons. Same is true for all kinds of equipment.

But my guess is that the worst shooters are buying the cheapest equipment which isn't 3.5. So I wouldn't make assumptions about people that buy 3.5.

Any public area away from the water (pass shooting) will have far more cheap brand 2.5 and 3 inch shells on the ground. Maybe you have met some people that followed your assumption but I doubt it matches the real world. I would bet that the typical 3.5 hunter bought one for geese and uses 3" most of the time. Probably no where close to your stereotype.

At 60 yards you have plenty of factors. Does the turkey move, jump or shift his head, is your gun steady. Unless your shooting off sticks a little wiggle can throw off your shotgun quiet a bit. I'm not a fan of shotgun shooting slugs in general and all the people I know who shoot muzzleloaders try to stay around 50-80 yards. With out a scope, like this state requires, it's a tough shot when the yardage increases.

Maybe it's a east side vs west side thing because I see plenty of pass shooter/sky busters with 3.5 inch shells. How do I know this? Because they are normally slobs and I have to pick up after them. I rarely see 2 3/4 inch shells anywhere. It has nothing to do with price and that's something you brought up that makes zero sense. You can buy a 3.5 shotgun for under 400 bucks and the cost in shells isn't drastic. Fiochii for a case of 3" is 119 and 3.5" is 149, that's only 3 bucks a box. I don't anyone pass shooters or people who decoy birds care about a couple of bucks for a box of shells.

If you look at forums and on Facebook you see guys ask what shells size, brand and choke combo they can use for extending ranges. If you don't believe me look for yourself. When people ask about ranges you always see "I shoot a 3.5" because they don't make a 4 inch shell". I don't believe in extending ranges because most people skills aren't that good and they don't take the time to actually practice wing shooting. Extending ranges lead to more injured birds, Do you believe this is untrue?.

I started posting all the evidence of shooting rates and wounding animals as range increase but it was a lot! Dept of Interior and Kansas has good ones about shooting skill and wounding animals. Kansas state out of the 25,000 shot gun hunters they tested not one has hit 6 of 8 clays at 40 yards and DoI stated that at 60 yards 66% of ducks are wounded and not killed. Not all wounded birds don't go un-retrieved but with all my reading I see anywhere from 15-30% of wounded birds aren't retrieved.

Now if  you're using 3.5 to help kill ducks inside of those lethal ranges that's awesome but if you're using them to extend range you should reconsider. There's no law against sky blasting or even and exact number to it but it's up to all sportsman to take the most ethical shot possible.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2019, 09:38:27 AM »
I think 60 yards is pushing it but 50 with a good choke and 3-1/2 shells can give a good pattern. Don't forget the main point of a 3-1/2 vs a 3 or 2-3/4 is the increased amount of pellets you are throwing down range at the target thus increasing the odds of a successful hit. Why do you think they make the 3-1/2?I use the WadWizard Supreme choke tube. It makes a difference and certainly lessens the punch to your shoulder especially with those turkey loads. Take a look at their patterns. There is a 50 yard pattern shown shot with only a 3 inch shell. Looks good to me. http://wadwizard.com/supremenon.htm#

Offline Henrydog

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2019, 10:08:40 AM »
Chokes makes ZERO difference on perceived recoil.  Factors in shotgun recoil are size of payload, burn rate of powder (shells) and stock fit and weight (gun itself)  This is in regards to a standard stock, not one outfitted with a soft touch, clydle slide or the like

Offline Russ McDonald

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2019, 10:39:45 AM »
It does when that after market choke is ported.  There is 3 factors in all of this imo.  Shooter skill, ckoke/pattern and shotgun.  I know I have an affective kill range out to 60 yards with my setup and that is using Hevi-shot choke tube and 3" Hevi-shot Magnum blend 5,6,7 shot.  I don't take that shot but if I need to I feel confident in it.  Now I use to duck hunt and pheasant hunt with an old JC Higgins pump factory full choke.  I could not jump shoot to save my life with that gun.  I had to let the birds get out to about 30 plus yards.  Put them down everytime.   Using 2 3/4" shells.  So size really doesn't matter as much to me.  :chuckle:  Lets also keep it civil please.  Seems to be getting a bit hitted.  Thanks

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Russell McDonald
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The opinions expressed in my posts do not represent those of the forum.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2019, 10:45:38 AM »
Chokes makes ZERO difference on perceived recoil.  Factors in shotgun recoil are size of payload, burn rate of powder (shells) and stock fit and weight (gun itself)  This is in regards to a standard stock, not one outfitted with a soft touch, clydle slide or the like

Wrong. Certain chokes do not restrict the end of the barrel like most chokes. I know because I use one. It cuts the punch to the shoulder in half. Go read up on that choke I posted about. You might learn sumpting.

Offline EWUeagles

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2019, 11:01:24 AM »
I think 60 yards is pushing it but 50 with a good choke and 3-1/2 shells can give a good pattern. Don't forget the main point of a 3-1/2 vs a 3 or 2-3/4 is the increased amount of pellets you are throwing down range at the target thus increasing the odds of a successful hit. Why do you think they make the 3-1/2?I use the WadWizard Supreme choke tube. It makes a difference and certainly lessens the punch to your shoulder especially with those turkey loads. Take a look at their patterns. There is a 50 yard pattern shown shot with only a 3 inch shell. Looks good to me. http://wadwizard.com/supremenon.htm#

Are you talking about 60 yards on a turkey or waterfowl? I do think they is a big difference in the two.

They made a shake weight so manufacturers will make anything they think they can sell to people haha. I do think 3.5 inch shells have their place for people who want to use them. A study I read said that at 50 yards you get an increase of about 10% harvest rate with a 3.5" vs a 3". The same study also stated that under 40 yards the wounded rate of a hit bird was less than 30% but at 50 yards it jumped to 50/50 and at 60 yards it went to 66%. Looking at that my conclusion is that shorter distances equals a better kill rate than a bigger shell. So if you used a 3.5" shell at under 40 yards your success rate would go up no doubt. So I do see a point in 3.5 shell but just not for the assumption that it can extend ranges.

Offline Henrydog

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2019, 11:02:12 AM »
Pegasus, I have been reading that site since you posted it.  I see no claims on recoil.  Not being arguementive I an seriously interested in it.  Maybe I am just missing it.

 I shoot about 15k 12ga a year and reload 10-12k a year.  I will leave it at that with the wishes of the moderators

Offline EWUeagles

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2019, 11:10:11 AM »
It does when that after market choke is ported.  There is 3 factors in all of this imo.  Shooter skill, ckoke/pattern and shotgun.  I know I have an affective kill range out to 60 yards with my setup and that is using Hevi-shot choke tube and 3" Hevi-shot Magnum blend 5,6,7 shot.  I don't take that shot but if I need to I feel confident in it.  Now I use to duck hunt and pheasant hunt with an old JC Higgins pump factory full choke.  I could not jump shoot to save my life with that gun.  I had to let the birds get out to about 30 plus yards.  Put them down everytime.   Using 2 3/4" shells.  So size really doesn't matter as much to me.  :chuckle:  Lets also keep it civil please.  Seems to be getting a bit hitted.  Thanks

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I agree on the 3 factors but I think ones skill is normally over exaggerated. Also ones ability to determined distances is normally way off too. How many times have you watched birds above the tree line and people open up at them to talk to them later about how they were working birds in close haha.

I'm not saying those statements about you because there are people out there who practice and truly are good shots. I also bet that even though you feel effective out to 60 yards you take more shots at 20-30 than 60.

Offline Henrydog

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2019, 12:42:41 PM »
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/08/4-factors-influence-felt-recoil-shotguns

http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html

http://claytargettesting.com/study2/pages/study2a.html  This test was done by Neil Winston

Sorry for the delayed response I had to shoot a practice round of trap at lunch.

EWUeagles I graduated from same highly esteemed Harvard of Spokane Co  :chuckle: and still heavily fish and hunt that area.  We've more than likely crossed paths out in the scablands.
 

Offline Pegasus

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2019, 01:41:19 PM »
Pegasus, I have been reading that site since you posted it.  I see no claims on recoil.  Not being arguementive I an seriously interested in it.  Maybe I am just missing it.

 I shoot about 15k 12ga a year and reload 10-12k a year.  I will leave it at that with the wishes of the moderators

They make no claim about the recoil but since it does not restrict, it definitely reduces the recoil. I would say about 50 percent. Shooting turkey loads used to kill my shoulder and I have shoulder issues. They now feel like a 2-3/4 low brass load. It is a shoulder saver and you can use it for almost all hunting. Wasn't cheap but was a big help plus I can shoot better with it. Read about how it also affects the shot string. Pretty interesting. I bot one years ago when they had just started. I wrote a testimonial for them when I shot a turkey that year at about 50 yards. Super clean kill. I don't see the  testimonial anymore but I think they replaced it with newer ones plus I never sent a pic along with it. I have bot three of those from them. One did not quite seat all the way down on a Baikal shotgun and they remanufactured it for me for free.

Offline Russ McDonald

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2019, 04:49:59 PM »
It does when that after market choke is ported.  There is 3 factors in all of this imo.  Shooter skill, ckoke/pattern and shotgun.  I know I have an affective kill range out to 60 yards with my setup and that is using Hevi-shot choke tube and 3" Hevi-shot Magnum blend 5,6,7 shot.  I don't take that shot but if I need to I feel confident in it.  Now I use to duck hunt and pheasant hunt with an old JC Higgins pump factory full choke.  I could not jump shoot to save my life with that gun.  I had to let the birds get out to about 30 plus yards.  Put them down everytime.   Using 2 3/4" shells.  So size really doesn't matter as much to me.  :chuckle:  Lets also keep it civil please.  Seems to be getting a bit hitted.  Thanks

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I agree on the 3 factors but I think ones skill is normally over exaggerated. Also ones ability to determined distances is normally way off too. How many times have you watched birds above the tree line and people open up at them to talk to them later about how they were working birds in close haha.

I'm not saying those statements about you because there are people out there who practice and truly are good shots. I also bet that even though you feel effective out to 60 yards you take more shots at 20-30 than 60.
You are correct.  I have never shot beyond 40 yards and don't plan on it.  I just know I can. 


I am sorry.  I think we have jacked this post.  The OP was originally talking 3 1/2's for duck hunting.  It is a bit of a difference hunting ducks and turkeys.  I have hunted both.  I have only hunted ducks with 2 3/4' and was pretty successful between 30 and 40 yards.
Russell McDonald
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Offline BD1

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Re: 3-1/2” + bad shoulder
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2019, 12:14:32 AM »
So to get back to the OP for a second. I shoot the original Super Black Eagle. I have moderate shoulder issues that are not getting better. I have never shot a 3.5 in a pump. The 3.5 in my gun doesn't bother me. Do I shoot them every time I hunt...no. I basically use them as my goose load. I do a fair amount of snow goose hunting and use 3.5 on those hunts. If I am buying a shotgun I want that 3.5 option if I feel I need/want it. Buy the gun with the most options.
Best of luck, shoulders can really hurt sometimes...it sucks
BD1

 


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