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Author Topic: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp  (Read 715 times)

Online jasnt

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Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« on: May 19, 2019, 10:24:56 AM »
Over at lrh there is an ongoing thread on this.  Wanted to get your ideas on annealing and what’s working for members here. 

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/?fbclid=IwAR0XqtD-9RF-lsfVsm3WUnl-PTh0Yn91K40uSJojOgU76StwJhWlsdcbYcg

Study seems it is biased but I personally never liked the idea of salt bath annealing. I think our rifles see enough corrosive materials with out possibly adding more to the mix.  Plus I hate drying brass. Not to mention having a pot of molten salt has it’s own dangers,accidents happen.

I anneal every loading and feel it’s improved my brass consistency and accuracy at range as a result of that. 

The following is my personal copy/ paste on annealing


This is what I learned working with cartridge brass ( 70 Cu- 30 Zn).
* All brass of the same grade is not the same when specifying annealing temperature
* Most yellow brass is manufactured from recycled brass, aka scrap
Proper annealing temps can range from 500f-1350f depending on brass purity
And how much work hardening it has received.  You can not burn the zinc out of brass with out melting it. You can however over heat (annealing case walls or even head)

The colors you see change when annealing is caused by oxygen and heat. It starts around 400f but those colors depend on oxygen in the flame and the temp of the brass. 

Annealing every loading you can get away with lower temp since it gets less work in between loadings.
As long as oxygenation colors do not run much past the shoulders your not over doing it.

If you disagree with any of what I’ve said above you may want to talk to your local metallurgist


Anealing brass. When and how often?

When I first learned to aneal I would do it once every 4 loadings. It worked well and my brass lasted a very long time.  I don't run high preasure so my primer pockets rarely open up.  As my skills improved I started chancing the acuracey rabbit.  Picked up a concentricity gage.  First lot I checked was a freshly anealed lot and my worst ones where a .0015" out.  I thought well that was a waste of money! But I continued to check them after sizing. 2nd loading I averaged .002-.003 still good but I wondered what I did differently.  3rd loading .002-.005   Hmmm. Fourth loading  .003-.007".  Now I was resizing some brass twice to straighten the bad ones. Then I check case length. Hmmm all different ranging .01".  I anealed resized and trimmed and checked again. .0015" extreme spred on concentricity.  I kept up this cycle for few weeks trying to figure out what I was doing wrong.  It finially dawned on me after reading an article about brass work hardening and spring back. I decided to do like some of the nut jobs online that preached about anealing every loading  :yike:

What happened? Well my brass stayed in the .001-.002 area for concentric, all my brass grew at the same rate with in .002".  Resizing was easier, seating was easier, trimming was easier.  Grouping improved at distance, Es/sd went down and most importantly confidence went up.
Now I'm one of those whack jobs online preaching about annealing every loading!

I used to anneal with a drill going super slow and a bit I made to hold the cases and then drop them in water to stop the heat from going down too far on the case.  Now I anneal by hand. Holding the brass by the head and turning it with my fingers. Then I set it on a tin plate to cool. No water mess or waiting for brass to dry, heat dosent go past the shoulders but maybe .1-.15"  still getting the same results but faster and less fuss. Typically when I finish the last peace I'm able to just start picking them up and place them in my loading block. They cool quickly.

Jmo based of my exp
description



I’m sure my method isn’t perfect but it has worked well for me.  Disclaimer: I have been doing it this way for years and have developed a good feel for consistency.  It will take time to get consistent results with my method but you can’t get much cheaper than just a torch.



https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 11:04:31 AM by jasnt »
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Offline kisfish

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 10:59:20 AM »
I have been reloading for a couple years. I have thought about annealing but never taken it on. I might have to start playing around with it.

Offline Biggerhammer

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 12:06:39 PM »
I wouldn’t waste the time or effort with it. Same way I feel about moly or simulator coatings on bullets. Your just adding another factor which compounds the effort and requires extra steps. 

Online jasnt

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 02:55:17 PM »
I wouldn’t waste the time or effort with it. Same way I feel about moly or simulator coatings on bullets. Your just adding another factor which compounds the effort and requires extra steps. 
I’m surprised at this response
with the results I’ve seen I wouldn’t call a few extra min a waste of time.  I could see if your loosing primer pockets in a few loadings it would probably be a waste.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 04:44:58 PM by jasnt »
243Round ct. 624
338rc 747
2019 Rifle rc 494

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline Bigshooter

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2019, 03:40:13 PM »
I wouldn’t waste the time or effort with it. Same way I feel about moly or simulator coatings on bullets. Your just adding another factor which compounds the effort and requires extra steps.

 :yeah:
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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2019, 05:17:30 PM »
I wouldn’t waste the time or effort with it. Same way I feel about moly or simulator coatings on bullets. Your just adding another factor which compounds the effort and requires extra steps. 
I’m surprised at this response
with the results I’ve seen I wouldn’t call a few extra min a waste of time.  I could see if your loosing primer pockets in a few loadings it would probably be a waste.

Biggerhammer doesn't keep anything long enough benefit from annealing. :chuckle:
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Offline Biggerhammer

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 05:23:26 PM »
I wouldn’t waste the time or effort with it. Same way I feel about moly or simulator coatings on bullets. Your just adding another factor which compounds the effort and requires extra steps. 
I’m surprised at this response
with the results I’ve seen I wouldn’t call a few extra min a waste of time.  I could see if your loosing primer pockets in a few loadings it would probably be a waste.

I should have clarified. I meant I wouldn’t waste time with the salt bath annealing. I anneal cases like you do by hand or with a properly fitting socket on the end of a short extension. Roll it in the flame by hand.

Offline Crunchy

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2019, 05:57:50 PM »
The cost of some of these machines is insane.  hand or socket and put the extra 800 bucks into reloading supplies.

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 06:08:34 PM »
I wouldn’t waste the time or effort with it. Same way I feel about moly or simulator coatings on bullets. Your just adding another factor which compounds the effort and requires extra steps. 
I’m surprised at this response
with the results I’ve seen I wouldn’t call a few extra min a waste of time.  I could see if your loosing primer pockets in a few loadings it would probably be a waste.

I should have clarified. I meant I wouldn’t waste time with the salt bath annealing. I anneal cases like you do by hand or with a properly fitting socket on the end of a short extension. Roll it in the flame by hand.
that makes more sense. 
243Round ct. 624
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2019 Rifle rc 494

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline Yondering

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2019, 03:54:56 PM »

I should have clarified. I meant I wouldn’t waste time with the salt bath annealing. I anneal cases like you do by hand or with a properly fitting socket on the end of a short extension. Roll it in the flame by hand.

I had been flame annealing cases in a socket in a cordless drill, but switched to salt bath annealing a little while ago. I discovered it's considerably faster than my old way when treating large batches of brass, but for small batches I just use the torch still instead of waiting for the pot to heat up.

Salt bath isn't for everyone, but if you're accustomed to bullet casting you can handle a salt bath with the same precautions. As far as I can tell, it works at least as well as my flame annealing process.

As to the AMP "study" - consider a couple points:
- AMP is in the business of selling $1,000+ annealing units; would they really publish anything saying a sub-$100 dollar setup is as good or better than what they sell?
- Why do the "salt bath annealed" cases in AMP's study look different than everyone else's salt bath annealed cases? This process leaves a distinct look with a "wet line" that is different than flame annealed processes.

As a test and development engineer who reads and writes technical reports like this, a couple other details in AMP's "report" had me raising some eyebrows. Overall, I think it's more of a cleverly done marketing paper than any real technical document. Lots of people are buying into it though, despite the clear motive for AMP to present a certain answer.

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2019, 08:05:29 PM »

I should have clarified. I meant I wouldn’t waste time with the salt bath annealing. I anneal cases like you do by hand or with a properly fitting socket on the end of a short extension. Roll it in the flame by hand.

I had been flame annealing cases in a socket in a cordless drill, but switched to salt bath annealing a little while ago. I discovered it's considerably faster than my old way when treating large batches of brass, but for small batches I just use the torch still instead of waiting for the pot to heat up.

Salt bath isn't for everyone, but if you're accustomed to bullet casting you can handle a salt bath with the same precautions. As far as I can tell, it works at least as well as my flame annealing process.

As to the AMP "study" - consider a couple points:
- AMP is in the business of selling $1,000+ annealing units; would they really publish anything saying a sub-$100 dollar setup is as good or better than what they sell?
- Why do the "salt bath annealed" cases in AMP's study look different than everyone else's salt bath annealed cases? This process leaves a distinct look with a "wet line" that is different than flame annealed processes.

As a test and development engineer who reads and writes technical reports like this, a couple other details in AMP's "report" had me raising some eyebrows. Overall, I think it's more of a cleverly done marketing paper than any real technical document. Lots of people are buying into it though, despite the clear motive for AMP to present a certain answer.

That's pretty much what I took away from it too. When the Chevy commercial tells you what a piece of junk Fords are, it doesn't take a real smart consumer to figure out that maybe there's some bias at work. Follow the money and you'll find the bias, every single time. :twocents:
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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2019, 08:59:39 PM »

I should have clarified. I meant I wouldn’t waste time with the salt bath annealing. I anneal cases like you do by hand or with a properly fitting socket on the end of a short extension. Roll it in the flame by hand.

I had been flame annealing cases in a socket in a cordless drill, but switched to salt bath annealing a little while ago. I discovered it's considerably faster than my old way when treating large batches of brass, but for small batches I just use the torch still instead of waiting for the pot to heat up.

Salt bath isn't for everyone, but if you're accustomed to bullet casting you can handle a salt bath with the same precautions. As far as I can tell, it works at least as well as my flame annealing process.

As to the AMP "study" - consider a couple points:
- AMP is in the business of selling $1,000+ annealing units; would they really publish anything saying a sub-$100 dollar setup is as good or better than what they sell?
- Why do the "salt bath annealed" cases in AMP's study look different than everyone else's salt bath annealed cases? This process leaves a distinct look with a "wet line" that is different than flame annealed processes.

As a test and development engineer who reads and writes technical reports like this, a couple other details in AMP's "report" had me raising some eyebrows. Overall, I think it's more of a cleverly done marketing paper than any real technical document. Lots of people are buying into it though, despite the clear motive for AMP to present a certain answer.

That's pretty much what I took away from it too. When the Chevy commercial tells you what a piece of junk Fords are, it doesn't take a real smart consumer to figure out that maybe there's some bias at work. Follow the money and you'll find the bias, every single time. :twocents:
Soo true😉
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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 10:59:59 PM »

I should have clarified. I meant I wouldn’t waste time with the salt bath annealing. I anneal cases like you do by hand or with a properly fitting socket on the end of a short extension. Roll it in the flame by hand.

I had been flame annealing cases in a socket in a cordless drill, but switched to salt bath annealing a little while ago. I discovered it's considerably faster than my old way when treating large batches of brass, but for small batches I just use the torch still instead of waiting for the pot to heat up.

Salt bath isn't for everyone, but if you're accustomed to bullet casting you can handle a salt bath with the same precautions. As far as I can tell, it works at least as well as my flame annealing process.

As to the AMP "study" - consider a couple points:
- AMP is in the business of selling $1,000+ annealing units; would they really publish anything saying a sub-$100 dollar setup is as good or better than what they sell?
- Why do the "salt bath annealed" cases in AMP's study look different than everyone else's salt bath annealed cases? This process leaves a distinct look with a "wet line" that is different than flame annealed processes.

As a test and development engineer who reads and writes technical reports like this, a couple other details in AMP's "report" had me raising some eyebrows. Overall, I think it's more of a cleverly done marketing paper than any real technical document. Lots of people are buying into it though, despite the clear motive for AMP to present a certain answer.

That's pretty much what I took away from it too. When the Chevy commercial tells you what a piece of junk Fords are, it doesn't take a real smart consumer to figure out that maybe there's some bias at work. Follow the money and you'll find the bias, every single time. :twocents:

Yup. It surprised and saddened me to see how many posters on the SH forum took it as gospel truth though. Lots of "well that's settled now" comments. Those people vote too...

Offline birddogdad

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2019, 07:19:00 AM »
? temperature is temperature? Metallurgy doesn't have brand favorites, its all about the degrees.... but as you hit it, this is a Chevy commercial marketing thing to me.. i love the "largest bed in its class" but they put max load in it and it may fill 1/3 deep... sensational!!
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Online jasnt

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Re: Salt annealing doesn’t work by amp
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 09:59:46 AM »
Chevy truck....max load 😂

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243Round ct. 624
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The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

 


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