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Author Topic: Key-holing Bullets, again.  (Read 1930 times)

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2019, 08:53:17 PM »
Did a very thoughrough cleaning with four 15min treatments of Montana extreme and some brushing. I completely removed the chemical between treatments. Honestly very little fouling came out and the bore looked the same afterward. The rifling looked pretty pronounced afterward, but it did before the thoughrough cleaning as well. :dunno:

I followed all the advice I could find. Thorough cleaning, Swabbing between shots, and letting the barrel cool, which resulted in no more keyholing.

So I went to 100yds and shot my 300g bloodlines with 110g of fffg T7. Good news, no keyholes, bad news, the group was a good 6-8” still. Varied my powder charge with no change. Ran out of bloodlines.

Next up was the .44cal 240g xtp’s with 110g of ffg T7. No keyholes but 6” group at 50yds. Dropped the powder charge to 100g and I shot a group at just under 1 1/2”. Finally, progress. I then shot a group at 100 which was around 2 1/2”. Made some adjustments. And ended up shooting a couple groups in the middle of the bull that were around 2”.

Since I’m only hunting deer with this rifle this year I’m going to stick with this load. It has dropped a few mulies and a whitetail for me in the past. Even on shots over 100yds I’ve hit through the shoulders and the .44 240g XTP passed through with no deflection. So I have confidence in them and now that I have the accuracy bit figured out I think I’m good to go.

Thanks for the advice everyone.  :hello:

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2019, 07:24:59 AM »
One more thing to try if you get a chance.... This information is directed at 'accuracy' not tumbling.

It sounds like you might also have a 'barrel Harmonic' problem... in that the forearm of your rifle (actually the stock) may have warped some what causing unequal pressure on the barrel in places.

I wrote this several years ago for a guy to check his rifle - so I will just paste it here.  Might be worth a little follow up...  Wish you were closer to Kennewick, I am headed there today - I would really like to check it for you.

Anyway read through and see what you think...

Quote

Checking the Fit of Knight stock


Rob, relieving the stickiness of that should be a really easy fix....

I wrote this up for a guy on Hunting Net the other day - i will repost it here. Look through it and see if it makes sense to you. I firmly believe the sticky stock will affect your accuracy...

Quote:
Can i get a little info on making sure i don't have any stock to barrel issues? I have seen info on tv about how a free floating barrel helps and heard of different procedures of seating the barrel. I will be putting a new stock on my gun very soon (broke the original one), and don't want to have issues there.

I can share some information with you for sure... One thing to remember 'floating' a barrel is not the best for accuracy it is the ‘cheapest’ so that is why you see many companies floating barrels. Companies can not afford to spend the time (money) bedding a barrel to the stock properly so the best thing is to 'float' them. With a wood stock the temperature of the barrel on the wood will make the POI change unless they barrel is bedded in glass or some such feature. In a composite stock if the barrel were bedded into the barrel channel correctly the heat would not be a problem but the flexion of the forearm of the inexpensive stock create a POI shift - so the answer 'float' the barrel.

In your case... since I think you said you have a Knight and if you are getting a Knight composite stock you might not have any of these problems. When I put a barreled action in a Knight stock I set the action in the stock and start the lug screw in. Tighten it with the Allen wrench until it starts to pull the action down. Then stand the gun vertically with the recoil pad on the floor. Gently, and honestly i am not that gentle, tap the gun on the floor to assure that the recoil lug is all the way back in the pocket. Then tighten the lug screw up snugly to hold it all in place. Forgot to say make sure the ram rod is not in place.

When you have the lug screw in tight place the gun in a horizontal position and squeeze the nose of the forearm and the barrel together as tight as you can. If there is no movement – you’re done the barrel is seated on and in the barrel channel. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test. If the test is the same you’re done... go shoot it and give it a check for accuracy.

If during the squeeze test (ram rod removed) the barrel moves down into the stock or the stock moves up to the barrel... release the grip and note if the barrel moves (on its own) back to the original location. Everything should be good - the barrel is floating. Next repeat the test again noting where the barrel returns to. At this time grip the barrel and the forearm of the stock and pull them apart easily. If you feel the barrel stick at some point then you have a problem. If the barrel appears to lift slightly but when you release it - it returns to the original location and you feel no points of stickiness - you are good. Put the ram rod in and repeat the test.

During the squeeze testing if you felt some stickiness in the spring of the floating barrel you will then to do some very light sanding in the barrel channel to relieve the tight spot. You might be able to locate the tight spot by running a dollar bill under the barrel and between the stock to locate the tight spot. Do not sand any more than you need, in fact in my little world the thickness of a single dollar bill is the max thickness the barrel should be off the stock. I normal use a strip of white computer paper for this test it is thinner than a dollar bill - heck it might be worth more than the dollar bill also!!!

Hope this might help you... when you get your new stock and if I can help give a shout....

mike

I am headed out to do some trap shooting this morning I will check back in this afternoon to see if you have any questions.... try to find a round dowel approximately the same diameter as the wall on the barrel channel...
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« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 08:43:21 AM by Sabotloader »
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Offline Jellymon

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2019, 11:07:09 AM »
Just tried this. The barrel is fully seated in the stock, no movement when I press stock/barrel together. When I pull the stock/barrel apart there is no stickyness, and the barrel returns to the original position without interference from the stock, and rests in the bottom of the channel.

I did notice that the stock gets pushed down very slightly when I install the ramrod. I’ve been shooting my groups with it removed.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 11:54:31 AM by Jellymon »

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2020, 04:45:19 PM »
So, still an issue. Contacted Knight and they are saying that the flash hole is worn and that installing a new breech plug/nipple should help. It doesn’t seem like a worn flash hole would degrade my accuracy enough to make bullets tumble and 8+” groups at 50yds, but I could be wrong. Any thoughts from anyone here about this?

Offline jrebel

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2020, 05:36:06 PM »
My muzzle loader key holed when I tried a certain bullet.  Went back to my original and it shot perfect.   Have you tried different projectiles...manufacturer and weights? 


Offline Dan-o

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2020, 05:44:11 PM »
That is just wicked.

I've owned 5-6 muzzleloaders and probably shot at least 1,000 rounds.

Never seen anything like those keyholes....
Member:   Yakstrakgutp (or whatever we are)
I love the BFRO!!!
I wonder how many people will touch their nose to their screen trying to read this...

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2020, 05:58:25 PM »
My muzzle loader key holed when I tried a certain bullet.  Went back to my original and it shot perfect.   Have you tried different projectiles...manufacturer and weights?
Yes I've tried quite a few. But the fact remains that these loads and sabots shot amazingly well the first few years I owned the gun.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2020, 07:37:52 PM »
author=jrebel link=topic=241814.msg3302864#msg3302864 date=1579052166]
My muzzle loader key holed when I tried a certain bullet.  Went back to my original and it shot perfect.   Have you tried different projectiles...manufacturer and weights?

Yes I've tried quite a few. But the fact remains that these loads and sabots shot amazingly well the first few years I owned the gun.

Ok - thinking my thought process over again.  I thought the problem was inaccuracy - I do not think tumbling entered my mind at all.

Tumbling.... normally and usually is caused because the bullet does not reach the rotational speed that it needs for stabilization. Also in that equation is the velocity the bullet is shot at.

Quote
I bought my knight disk extreme (western setup with musket caps) about 7 or so years ago. The first few seasons it shot very well with the German musket caps, 100g of FF T7 with 300g bloodlines and 240g xtp. Usually 2”, sometimes 3” groups.

From your writing above - everything I see should insure that stabilization is achieved, but obviously it isn't so....

So the only thing I can not know from here is if you are getting the muzzle velocity needed.  Your load value should indicate you are.

Next then I would start suspecting the sabot used. The sabot must hold the bullet tight enough to insure the bullet does not slip inside the sabot.  To accomplish that the load as you push it down the barrel needs to require enough pressure to force the sabot to compress tightly around the bullet and compress into the grooves of the bore.

Normally but not always key hole is because the sabot slips up the bore without grabbing the lands.  When this happens the bullet never reaches the rotation (revolutions) needed to stabilize the bullet. 

Also if the bullet is slipping in the sabot the same results will happen.

Reading the rest of your post I am inclined to believe the sabots must be slipping across the lands of the bore. So my question to you is 'how much pressure is needed to load the sabot and bullet' down onto the powder?

I am assuming that you are using the factory supplied sabots with the Bloodlines.  They are for a .458 bullet.  The Hornady 240's use a completely different sabot.

You also mention using a Barnes bullet sabot combination... normally these really tight in a Knight and because of that and with the other information you have supplied I really am leaning to the possibility that the rifle bore is the problem.

Knight's thought about flash hole erosion would and can cause a loss of accuracy but really wouldn't associate to tumbling.

I did send you a PM - it should be in your inbox...

mike



« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 06:30:40 PM by Sabotloader »
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

Offline jbeaumont21

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2020, 07:56:33 PM »
My buddy went through the same thing with his Knight Disc Extreme that he bought about 6-7 years ago.  Finally sent it into Knight and they sent him a new rifle.  They must have made a few bad batches during that time  :dunno:

I'm thinking you need to send it into Knight for testing to see if its one of the bad ones  :dunno:

Offline Jellymon

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2020, 09:59:10 PM »
The bloodlines I'm using the supplied sabot and I'd say they load with difficulty. The 44cal XTPs I use the green hornady sabots which load stiffly but not too bad and are the best shooting during my troubles.  The Barnes I was using were the 290grain TEZ which loaded very easy and were the worst keyholin/grouping by far. With all three I can't load over 95g without horrible accuracy and keyholing.
So right now I'm just going to try knights recommendations, even though I don't think it's the flash hole, and hopefully they will have me send the rifle in to inspect it.

Offline Sabotloader

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Re: Key-holing Bullets, again.
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2020, 10:06:38 AM »
The bloodlines I'm using the supplied sabot and I'd say they load with difficulty. The 44cal XTPs I use the green hornady sabots which load stiffly but not too bad and are the best shooting during my troubles.  The Barnes I was using were the 290grain TEZ which loaded very easy and were the worst keyholin/grouping by far. With all three I can't load over 95g without horrible accuracy and keyholing.
So right now I'm just going to try knights recommendations, even though I don't think it's the flash hole, and hopefully they will have me send the rifle in to inspect it.


Since it is a Western - you just need to change nipples - that's easy enough.  And I hope that works for you but I still think you will find you have a bore problem.  Wait! another possibility which just now comes to mind - might be the 'crown'. Check the crown very closely for nick or dings...

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - They are a blast!!

 


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