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Lion hunting reg poll

I have sent emails to wdfw requesting increased lion hunting opportunity
53 (70.7%)
I have no intention of sending emails, i really dont care
22 (29.3%)

Total Members Voted: 75

Author Topic: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020  (Read 17044 times)

Offline Special T

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #165 on: February 06, 2020, 01:26:45 PM »
Here is the final draft that I read.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/draft__alternatives_for_cougar_management_final_draft.pdf


When you read F, you gotta wonder or it more confirms, WDFW really will set seasons based on feelings...
"Harvest Guideline calculations can vary by social needs within designated geographic portions of
the state. We would establish guidelines that do not always consider maintaining stable cougar
populations based on territoriality or cougar densities."

In one hand, in this instance, I'm almost ok with it, because they are possibly saying if the NE doesn't want cougars they can over harvest, but at the same time they are suggesting other areas could under harvest depending on social needs (feelings).... fundamentally wrong as far as wildlife management goes, so I can't get on board.

That is the MOST generous interpretation of their statement, which I don't think I could make come out of my mouth.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline Bango skank

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #166 on: February 06, 2020, 01:28:31 PM »
"The third option adjusts the guideline upward for units that exceeded the guideline by December 31 at least once in
the past five years. The new guideline is based on the highest harvest in the past five years."

Sooo... then gmu 121 would have a harvest guideline of 16???  Sounds good to me.  Not as good as NO guideline, but a big improvement.

Yes... but option four does option 3 plus it doesn't count sub-adult Cougars. So it would be 16 cougars that are 24 months or older.

Not necessarily.  Im sure thry would look at how many of those 16 cougar were 24 mo +.  If only 7 of them were, wed get a quota of 7 im sure.  Lot of very pointed specific questions need be put to wdfw, and they need to answer with specific clear answers.

Ill be poking and prodding at them for direct answers to some things before i comment on the options.

Offline Bango skank

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #167 on: February 06, 2020, 01:39:53 PM »
Also, on paper it sounds good not counting <24 month old lions toward the quota, but if they adjust the quotas lower to account for that we get nowhere. 

But my big thing with it, is whoever checks the cat in makes the determination on age.  Do you think none of the wardens or bios have an anti cougar hunting agenda?  One local wdfw officer told me to my face he thinks cougars are beautiful animals and he doesnt think people should shoot them.  If somebody brings an 18 month old cat in to him, ill bet the farm hed call it 24 month+ so that it would count toward the harvest guideline.

Offline avidnwoutdoorsman

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #168 on: February 06, 2020, 01:54:23 PM »
Here is the final draft that I read.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/draft__alternatives_for_cougar_management_final_draft.pdf


When you read F, you gotta wonder or it more confirms, WDFW really will set seasons based on feelings...
"Harvest Guideline calculations can vary by social needs within designated geographic portions of
the state. We would establish guidelines that do not always consider maintaining stable cougar
populations based on territoriality or cougar densities."

In one hand, in this instance, I'm almost ok with it, because they are possibly saying if the NE doesn't want cougars they can over harvest, but at the same time they are suggesting other areas could under harvest depending on social needs (feelings).... fundamentally wrong as far as wildlife management goes, so I can't get on board.

That is the MOST generous interpretation of their statement, which I don't think I could make come out of my mouth.

My vote is D-Option 1:
D. No Harvest Guideline, General Season
Description
Cougar harvest would occur in a general season with a 1 animal bag limit for licensed hunters.
No harvest guidelines would be in effect, except in the options below.
Options
Option 1
Cougar Season: 1 animal bag limit, no guideline.

But will they take comments on this idea or only comments on the rules they released today on their website?
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Offline Bango skank

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #169 on: February 06, 2020, 01:57:02 PM »
Here is the final draft that I read.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/draft__alternatives_for_cougar_management_final_draft.pdf


When you read F, you gotta wonder or it more confirms, WDFW really will set seasons based on feelings...
"Harvest Guideline calculations can vary by social needs within designated geographic portions of
the state. We would establish guidelines that do not always consider maintaining stable cougar
populations based on territoriality or cougar densities."

In one hand, in this instance, I'm almost ok with it, because they are possibly saying if the NE doesn't want cougars they can over harvest, but at the same time they are suggesting other areas could under harvest depending on social needs (feelings).... fundamentally wrong as far as wildlife management goes, so I can't get on board.

That is the MOST generous interpretation of their statement, which I don't think I could make come out of my mouth.

My vote is D-Option 1:
D. No Harvest Guideline, General Season
Description
Cougar harvest would occur in a general season with a 1 animal bag limit for licensed hunters.
No harvest guidelines would be in effect, except in the options below.
Options
Option 1
Cougar Season: 1 animal bag limit, no guideline.

But will they take comments on this idea or only comments on the rules they released today on their website?

Read between the lines, "general season"  that means sept 1st through dec 31st.  The guidelines only shut down after dec 31st.  So essentially all thats doing is saying no late season whatsoever.  Thats a big loss.  Anyway, that was one of the original proposals, not the new final 4 options.

Offline avidnwoutdoorsman

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #170 on: February 06, 2020, 02:30:34 PM »
"The third option adjusts the guideline upward for units that exceeded the guideline by December 31 at least once in
the past five years. The new guideline is based on the highest harvest in the past five years."

Sooo... then gmu 121 would have a harvest guideline of 16???  Sounds good to me.  Not as good as NO guideline, but a big improvement.

Yes... but option four does option 3 plus it doesn't count sub-adult Cougars. So it would be 16 cougars that are 24 months or older.

Not necessarily.  Im sure thry would look at how many of those 16 cougar were 24 mo +.  If only 7 of them were, wed get a quota of 7 im sure.  Lot of very pointed specific questions need be put to wdfw, and they need to answer with specific clear answers.

Ill be poking and prodding at them for direct answers to some things before i comment on the options.

You are right Bango... if you go to page 79. It states what the quota limits would be. Option 3 has overall the highest quota.

However the difference between Option 3 and Option 4 is only 1 for quota. Sooo would Option 4 be preferred because you would have the opportunity to have more cougars removed. Kind of splitting hairs... but I would give up one total harvest quantity for the opportunity at unlimited sub-adults....?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 02:37:13 PM by avidnwoutdoorsman »
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Online hunter399

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #171 on: February 06, 2020, 02:48:49 PM »
I will tell ya anybody that choose option 1 it says right in there that the general season is subject to change to keep harvest at what they want.So sept,1-dec,31 is not a guaranteed.
Just thought I would add that.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline nwwanderer

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #172 on: February 06, 2020, 04:19:13 PM »
Seems that all options require accurate population numbers.  Has that been accomplished ever, anywhere?  Please cite the source.

Online hunter399

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #173 on: February 06, 2020, 05:08:30 PM »
Seems that all options require accurate population numbers.  Has that been accomplished ever, anywhere?  Please cite the source.
No there is none ,for population numbers quotas are based on harvest and what the estimated population is.
They don't want to put out hundreds of game cams cause I don't think they really want to know.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Bango skank

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #174 on: February 06, 2020, 05:16:35 PM »
Seems that all options require accurate population numbers.  Has that been accomplished ever, anywhere?  Please cite the source.

Option 3 said they looked back 5 years, any unit that went over the quota in that period, they would adjust the quota to the highest harvest level in that 5 year period. 

So, 2016, unit 121 shows a harvest of 16.  Therefore the quota should be 16.  Yet they have it set as 10-12 under option three.  Lying dirtbags.

Online buckfvr

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #175 on: February 06, 2020, 05:24:24 PM »
I didnt agree to any of the proposals.......I just complained about their methods and their agendas.  They need crystal clear message that they arent fooling everyone and that we are angry over their lack of meaningfuly addressing the current situation.  I know plenty of PO'd hunters and its time we be heard as such.

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #176 on: February 06, 2020, 05:40:33 PM »
If I had to pick one today it would still be option 2
Option 1 is all jacked up with season could open early/late/statewide quota on and on and on I can't support that at least option two has set season dates.
We are not gonna get past that 16 percent harvest rate so might as well have the extra season time. :twocents:
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Humptulips

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #177 on: February 06, 2020, 07:22:22 PM »
The way  I read it all  of the 4 options have the same exact seasons.
1 counts all cats toward the quota
2 counts only adults
3 counts all cats toward the quota but holds out the possibility of increased quota for units that exceed the quota in the early season
4 counts only adults toward the quota but holds out the possibility of increased quota for units that exceed the quota in the early season.

I have to go with option 4. That being said of the units I know that exceeded the quota in the past I see no evidence of the following through and adding to the quota.
I believe Bango  already pointed this out.

Anybody tell me what the number in parenthesis in Options 3 and 4 of the unit quotas mean?
Bruce Vandervort

Offline Special T

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Re: Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #178 on: February 06, 2020, 08:11:24 PM »
The way  I read it all  of the 4 options have the same exact seasons.
1 counts all cats toward the quota
2 counts only adults
3 counts all cats toward the quota but holds out the possibility of increased quota for units that exceed the quota in the early season
4 counts only adults toward the quota but holds out the possibility of increased quota for units that exceed the quota in the early season.

I have to go with option 4. That being said of the units I know that exceeded the quota in the past I see no evidence of the following through and adding to the quota.
I believe Bango  already pointed this out.

Anybody tell me what the number in parenthesis in Options 3 and 4 of the unit quotas mean?

Do you see any option that has the possibility of an significant increase in harvest? I see some that might have an edge but only the possibility of reducing increases in population, and not by a bunch.  keep in mind only 1/3 of harvest they belive is juvenile.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline avidnwoutdoorsman

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Official notice that lion changes are on the table for 2020
« Reply #179 on: February 06, 2020, 10:02:59 PM »
Anybody tell me what the number in parenthesis in Options 3 and 4 of the unit quotas mean?

“Assumed Cougar density per 100 sq km.”


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