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Author Topic: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless  (Read 1847 times)

Offline Stein

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2019, 07:06:30 PM »
There is value in the tags because we keep paying for them.  I had my best WA hunt on a special permit and my worst two hunts on special permits.  Don't assume the state is selling permits for anything other than revenue generation.

Offline Special T

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2019, 07:10:56 AM »
It should also be noted that special tags are a management tool. If you are specifically trying to reduce or offer up harvest the permits work as intended. With a 14% sucess rate we know generally how many cows will be harvested with bows with this method.

Tags are a double edged sword. They are a management tool and the quality of the opportunity is diluted when folks put in for them with little to no knowledge of the area.

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In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline ljsommer

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2019, 08:29:04 AM »
Ok so there's something I'd like to address because I've heard it many times and it doesn't make sense to me. I've heard it said many times that you shouldn't apply for a tag in a unit you're not already familiar with. I take issue with that.

First, what's your measure of determining familiarity with a unit? In most units you're talking thousands of acres of land. What about e-scouting? Does that count? If not, why not? It's good enough to travel out of state for a good tag but not good enough for in-state?

Second, there are tons of lottery tags in this state. If you're saying that you should only apply for units you're familiar with it means you're saying that your already slim chances are made even more slim by limiting the ones you're "supposed" to apply for.

Lastly, the odds of these drawings is ludicrously low, why wouldn't you encourage your fellow hunters to apply and then if you happen to be familiar with the unit, offer to help the person out? If you want people who draw to be familiar with the unit - here's an idea: go out and show them some locations to help them make their drawing a success. I'd prefer a hunting community filling tags over a hunting community eating tags.

Offline Okanagan

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2019, 09:22:33 AM »
There is value in the tags because we keep paying for them.  I had my best WA hunt on a special permit and my worst two hunts on special permits.  Don't assume the state is selling permits for anything other than revenue generation.

^^This^^ 

I've observed game seasons and permit seasons in several jurisdictions.  There is some strange logic behind some of them.  The only constant is revenue to the state.

I lived in a state for awhile that had a long, generous-bag-limit pheasant season.  In eight years of living and hiking, hunting etc. I never saw a single pheasant.  They might as well have had an open season on polar bears.  Hope this post is not giving ideas to the game regs people in Olympia!

I drew an elk permit many years ago in WA for an area with almost zero elk.  The reason for the permit was that the game dept. did not want any elk at all in that region so gave out a good number of permits to entice hunters to chase out any elk that entered the area.  I talked with a warden who told me that he did not think that he could find a single elk track in one full day of driving logging roads and looking.  I applied because I knew the geography of the area and my son lived there.  I lucked into two elk at 40 yards on opening day.

My son drew a permit one year that we expected to be fabulous but was a bust due to weather.  A delayed Fall had not caused deer to migrate normally.  Rain for the whole time we had to hunt added misery.

Some permits turn out to be more trouble than they are worth due to scheduling and distance and I apply for fewer than I used to.  If it fits my schedule and plans maybe, but if I will have to change my fall plans much to use the permit, I pass. 

Re knowing the area of the permit:  either know it or learn it... or wing it, which usually means that by the end of the hunt you know some simple things you wish you'd known at the start, but it is too late..

Offline bobcat

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2019, 09:39:29 AM »
I would never tell people not to apply for a permit just because they're not already familiar with the unit. But in my comment to you I did say it would be better not to apply for that permit if you're not already familiar with the unit, but I say that only because you're complaining about it already, even before the season has started. It was your choice to apply, and this wasn't a low odds draw. It was around 50% odds so you should have expected to draw, and if you really didn't want the permit you just took it from someone who DID want it.

Also, it's unlikely that people who know where the elk are in this unit would show you, because it's a unit that also has a general season for archery and modern firearm. So it's kind of unrealistic to think that people will give up their honey holes to a stranger just because you drew a cow permit.

Offline Special T

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2019, 09:42:22 AM »
Ok so there's something I'd like to address because I've heard it many times and it doesn't make sense to me. I've heard it said many times that you shouldn't apply for a tag in a unit you're not already familiar with. I take issue with that.

First, what's your measure of determining familiarity with a unit? In most units you're talking thousands of acres of land. What about e-scouting? Does that count? If not, why not? It's good enough to travel out of state for a good tag but not good enough for in-state?

Second, there are tons of lottery tags in this state. If you're saying that you should only apply for units you're familiar with it means you're saying that your already slim chances are made even more slim by limiting the ones you're "supposed" to apply for.

Lastly, the odds of these drawings is ludicrously low, why wouldn't you encourage your fellow hunters to apply and then if you happen to be familiar with the unit, offer to help the person out? If you want people who draw to be familiar with the unit - here's an idea: go out and show them some locations to help them make their drawing a success. I'd prefer a hunting community filling tags over a hunting community eating tags.

You are the one lamenting the low success rate and the difficulty in finding animals.  I think what you are keying in on is that success depends on familiarity and a special tag does not necessarily mean greater success. You/we now know the success rate is 14% not 3% like you first thought...  If you believe those to be low why did you put in for the draw?

I have not hunted that area so i have no real insight on it specifically. I wish you the best luck in the late season and hope it turns into a fun adventure.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline Bob33

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2019, 10:21:19 AM »
I've participated in many special permit hunts over the years, and I can't think of one where I felt that I was mislead about what to expect. I did not harvest an animal in several of them, but the experience was better than a general season hunt would have been in nearly all of them.

A lot of research can be done before applying. The WDFW website can provide information on draw odds and harvest rates in prior years. Tools like onX mapping software can provide some idea of access. Google Earth can show terrain. Posting a question on Hunt WA of former permit holders can give some sense of the opportunities.

Sometimes factors outside of anyone's control like a fire can affect the hunt, but one can usually make an informed decision whether or not to apply, and what should be expected based on the research.
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline ljsommer

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2019, 10:25:53 AM »
Whoa hold up fellas. I wasn't complaining about anything. As I made very clear in the beginning, I was trying to understand the data *from WDFW itself* as it pertained to permits in two neighboring units. Bobcat kindly came on here and corrected me and gave me a link to the correct hunt data, and that was very enlightening and I thanked him for it. 14% is pretty good in my book and I am excited about the tag.

The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

Offline cb1989

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2019, 10:48:02 AM »
The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

Offline ljsommer

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2019, 11:12:03 AM »
The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

Great post thank you, that's a new perspective and I appreciate it!

Offline bobcat

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2019, 11:18:27 AM »
The good news is the permit you have is relatively easy to draw, so hunt it, and learn it this year, and draw the permit again in a year or two, and your chance of being successful then will be much better. And in the meantime continue hunting the same areas for bulls during the general season.

Offline Special T

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2019, 11:23:48 AM »
The conversation about giving people a hard time for daring to apply for a permit that they're not intimately familiar with is a completely separate conversation.

When people say that it, it's not being said defensively like "if you don't know it, you're not allowed to hunt it." It's meant to be a helpful warning - that if you don't know an area, and you draw a permit to hunt it expecting success because it's a "special permit," you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening. Personally I wouldn't be wasting application dollars and points on something I didn't already know well. Drawing a tag without preparation is like signing up for a marathon and thinking just because you bought the shoes you're good to go.

And by the way... whoever told you that e-scouting counts as scouting for out of state hunts is incorrect. Or if you are just reaching that conclusion from seeing guys like Cam Hanes strut all over the west shooting bulls in every state he hunts... I can tell you there's a lot going on behind the scenes you aren't seeing. OnX and gohunt would like you to think it's true... but it's not. If you don't believe that, buy a tag for Idaho next year, prep for it with your computer, and then come back and let me know if it's the game rich garden of eden some guys on here would have you believe.

well said
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline ljsommer

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2019, 11:26:32 AM »
yeah that was a great post because it helped me see a new side of it, and I like seeing new perspectives.

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2019, 01:02:53 PM »
As for not applying for tags in an area you aren't familiar with, I'd guess that most people who apply for sheep or goat or even moose tags aren't intimately familiar with the areas they apply for.   Why should it be any different for deer or elk?
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Offline Stein

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Re: Help me understand: Permit seems pointless
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2019, 01:08:31 PM »
Some people only want to hunt a certain area and only apply for that tag.  I tend to bounce around a bunch as the tags can go up and down dramatically and if you only know a certain area and the tags drop 50% one year and 75% the next year you are basically up a creek.

With a little research, you can do a pretty good job at finding decent tags to apply for.  It is fact that WDFW throws a bunch of them out for revenue or to basically pumpkin patch the landscape and keep animals out of an area.  I've been on a few of those and it's not fun, but a learning experience.

There are also tags for which the experience is good but finding the target animal is next to impossible.

Finally, there are the good tags but you didn't notice that there are 12 other seasons going on in there at the same time and even though you have a great tag, it isn't a good experience or reasonable odds of finding what you are looking for.

The biggest problem by far is the odds are getting comical for anything worth applying for.

 


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