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Author Topic: Taking away quality permits or general season  (Read 5581 times)

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2019, 08:21:53 AM »
 
<snip> WDFW's resting state is incompetence or laziness when it comes to game management...sadly...unlike predators...they really could do something here without worrying about interference from the Governor's office.



This is the truth of the matter folks, Inslee will sink anything meaningful regarding Predators.   In light of this fact calling for reductions in opportunity is shooting ourselves in the foot.   Without predator control the population will continue its decline, the predators will grow in population to suck up what we don't take and the decline will continue.   Any deer/elk WE don't take is one more for a cat, a wolf, a bear or a tribal member that rejoices there's a few less white guys to compete with. 


With inslee sinking predator control, I don't see a win no matter how much WE sacrifice.
Your statements are based on the false and simplistic view that all herds in all places are limited by non-human predation.  The reality is - there are areas where HUNTER harvest is why virtually no mule deer bucks make it past 2.5 years old.  Unless you can explain to me how it is cougars, wolves, and bears are only eating 3pt or bigger bucks...those are the areas where going to permit only would be successful.  If there are no deer surviving because of predators or other non-hunting factors, then I would agree...pointless to limit hunting as it would not do anything.  But in the real world - hunter harvest has a very significant effect on populations and their composition and it needs to be managed, not ignored by WDFW.

Exactly! On my late tag there couldn’t be any more glaring evidence of hunters wiping out 3pt or better bucks. I saw tons of forks, spikes and 2x1’s yet only 2 3pt bucks . Somehow predators ate them all as they must be following the state 3pt min.

Something everyone on this forum can do legally is hunt bears and yotes. Bears wreak havoc in June on calves and fawns ! Idaho just released a study in Clearwater and selway where 44-46% of the elk calf mortality was due to bears. Yet I’d be willing to bet 10% of the guys bitching about elk and deer numbers don’t even attempt to hunt bears.

I understand that hunting 3pt or better changes the genetics and we end up with huge forkies and lots of spikes.   Not a fan of 3pt or larger. 

I also understand your and other's desire to make it permit only to better the quality of the hunt, and it would, but it would also reduce the overall amount of hunters.

If the state is getting $3.00 of federal monies for every $1.00 of state money spent, there's a big incentive to keep as many people hunting as possible.   




I just think that if permit hunting replaced a lot of our current OTC hunts we'd see far fewer people buy in, and that matched federal dollars would dry up and it would have a profound effect on the management budget which then prompts more and more reduced services, which means less and less hunters.... it's a snowball effect until there's very little hunting left and zero predator management or any management for that matter for lack of funding. 
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Offline bornhunter

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #106 on: November 13, 2019, 08:27:25 AM »
 
<snip> WDFW's resting state is incompetence or laziness when it comes to game management...sadly...unlike predators...they really could do something here without worrying about interference from the Governor's office.



This is the truth of the matter folks, Inslee will sink anything meaningful regarding Predators.   In light of this fact calling for reductions in opportunity is shooting ourselves in the foot.   Without predator control the population will continue its decline, the predators will grow in population to suck up what we don't take and the decline will continue.   Any deer/elk WE don't take is one more for a cat, a wolf, a bear or a tribal member that rejoices there's a few less white guys to compete with. 


With inslee sinking predator control, I don't see a win no matter how much WE sacrifice.
Your statements are based on the false and simplistic view that all herds in all places are limited by non-human predation.  The reality is - there are areas where HUNTER harvest is why virtually no mule deer bucks make it past 2.5 years old.  Unless you can explain to me how it is cougars, wolves, and bears are only eating 3pt or bigger bucks...those are the areas where going to permit only would be successful.  If there are no deer surviving because of predators or other non-hunting factors, then I would agree...pointless to limit hunting as it would not do anything.  But in the real world - hunter harvest has a very significant effect on populations and their composition and it needs to be managed, not ignored by WDFW.

Exactly! On my late tag there couldn’t be any more glaring evidence of hunters wiping out 3pt or better bucks. I saw tons of forks, spikes and 2x1’s yet only 2 3pt bucks . Somehow predators ate them all as they must be following the state 3pt min.

Something everyone on this forum can do legally is hunt bears and yotes. Bears wreak havoc in June on calves and fawns ! Idaho just released a study in Clearwater and selway where 44-46% of the elk calf mortality was due to bears. Yet I’d be willing to bet 10% of the guys bitching about elk and deer numbers don’t even attempt to hunt bears.

I understand that hunting 3pt or better changes the genetics and we end up with huge forkies and lots of spikes.   Not a fan of 3pt or larger. 

I also understand your and other's desire to make it permit only to better the quality of the hunt, and it would, but it would also reduce the overall amount of hunters.

If the state is getting $3.00 of federal monies for every $1.00 of state money spent, there's a big incentive to keep as many people hunting as possible.   




I just think that if permit hunting replaced a lot of our current OTC hunts we'd see far fewer people buy in, and that matched federal dollars would dry up and it would have a profound effect on the management budget which then prompts more and more reduced services, which means less and less hunters.... it's a snowball effect until there's very little hunting left and zero predator management or any management for that matter for lack of funding.

Darn good point KF.

Online Rainier10

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #107 on: November 13, 2019, 08:31:31 AM »
They just increased the general season for mulies a few years ago, lengthened it by two days and a bunch of bucks got shot in those two extra days the first year as I recall.

There is an easy way to lessen the pressure, remove the Monday and Tuesday hunting days after the last weekend if you are in the camp that too many deer are being taken.
Pain is temporary, achieving the goal is worth it.

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it would be worth it.

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Offline KFhunter

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #108 on: November 13, 2019, 08:36:09 AM »
They just increased the general season for mulies a few years ago, lengthened it by two days and a bunch of bucks got shot in those two extra days the first year as I recall.

There is an easy way to lessen the pressure, remove the Monday and Tuesday hunting days after the last weekend if you are in the camp that too many deer are being taken.

Ya I know, poor management decision I can't figure out why they had that herd slaughtered like that.  especially after the fire where everyone could see a long ways and make pokes at deer way out there.
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Offline ne kid

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2019, 08:42:20 AM »
  :twocents: End all doe hunts, stop all special permits, and make it over the counter species choice blacktail,mule, or whitetail. I think this would take some pressure off of some of the high pressure areas.

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #110 on: November 13, 2019, 08:59:12 AM »
Your right when you said blacktail does in certain areas. However by me I have had 7 occurrences of cougars(doubtful its the same one) show on my cam in 3 months and they outnumber the blacktail deer on cam.

Offline Sundance

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #111 on: November 13, 2019, 09:29:57 AM »
3 Tag Deer System-

1st Tag
Tag holder picks a GMU, they are allowed to hunt all general & late seasons in that GMU only (essentially giving them a multi-season tag) and may only apply for special permit hunts in that specific GMU (they are still allowed to enter for ghost points). This caters to the hunter who chooses to hunt locally, buys an access permit or doesn't play the permit game. You may only hunt the High Buck season under this tag if your specified a GMU that is open to High Buck.

2nd Tag
Primitive weapons, archery and muzzleloader tag. Tag holders are allowed to hunt BOTH archery and muzzleloader seasons but must select Eastern or Western Washington GMU's (similar to elk). Tag holders may only apply for special permits in GMU's for the side of the state they choose and may only apply for permits pertaining to archery and muzzleloader hunts. This alleviates statewide pressure, forces tag holders to hunt the side of the state they choose without being able to put in for permits on both sides of the state. The kicker is tag holder may now hunt both primitive weapon(s) seasons. High Buck season for muzzleloaders is closed.

3rd Tag
Rifle tag. Tag holders must select Eastern or Western Washington GMU's to hunt. Eastern WA modern rifle deer season remains the current length, Western WA modern rifle season remain the current length. ALL LATE RIFLE SEASONS ARE CLOSED, those hunting opportunities move to a draw only system under the Buck Deer category with permit numbers set based off historical harvest statistics and current herd populations. Tag holders mat only apply for special permit hunts for the side of the state they select. High buck season is still open, however you must hunt the side of the state for the tag you purchase.

All multi-season deer tags are eliminated. This will lose the WDFW roughly $1,800,000 in revenue. In 2018 it shows 108,729 deer hunters. Increase the deer tag cost by $10.00 and the remainder could either be absorbed as a loss of covered under the increased sale of Buck Deer category entries (for the late rifle opportunity to 3rd tag holders). 

Offline huntnphool

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #112 on: November 13, 2019, 10:30:55 AM »
 
<snip> WDFW's resting state is incompetence or laziness when it comes to game management...sadly...unlike predators...they really could do something here without worrying about interference from the Governor's office.



This is the truth of the matter folks, Inslee will sink anything meaningful regarding Predators.   In light of this fact calling for reductions in opportunity is shooting ourselves in the foot.   Without predator control the population will continue its decline, the predators will grow in population to suck up what we don't take and the decline will continue.   Any deer/elk WE don't take is one more for a cat, a wolf, a bear or a tribal member that rejoices there's a few less white guys to compete with. 


With inslee sinking predator control, I don't see a win no matter how much WE sacrifice.
Your statements are based on the false and simplistic view that all herds in all places are limited by non-human predation.  The reality is - there are areas where HUNTER harvest is why virtually no mule deer bucks make it past 2.5 years old.  Unless you can explain to me how it is cougars, wolves, and bears are only eating 3pt or bigger bucks...those are the areas where going to permit only would be successful.  If there are no deer surviving because of predators or other non-hunting factors, then I would agree...pointless to limit hunting as it would not do anything.  But in the real world - hunter harvest has a very significant effect on populations and their composition and it needs to be managed, not ignored by WDFW.

Exactly! On my late tag there couldn’t be any more glaring evidence of hunters wiping out 3pt or better bucks. I saw tons of forks, spikes and 2x1’s yet only 2 3pt bucks . Somehow predators ate them all as they must be following the state 3pt min.

Something everyone on this forum can do legally is hunt bears and yotes. Bears wreak havoc in June on calves and fawns ! Idaho just released a study in Clearwater and selway where 44-46% of the elk calf mortality was due to bears. Yet I’d be willing to bet 10% of the guys bitching about elk and deer numbers don’t even attempt to hunt bears.

I understand that hunting 3pt or better changes the genetics and we end up with huge forkies and lots of spikes.   Not a fan of 3pt or larger. 

I also understand your and other's desire to make it permit only to better the quality of the hunt, and it would, but it would also reduce the overall amount of hunters.

If the state is getting $3.00 of federal monies for every $1.00 of state money spent, there's a big incentive to keep as many people hunting as possible.   




I just think that if permit hunting replaced a lot of our current OTC hunts we'd see far fewer people buy in, and that matched federal dollars would dry up and it would have a profound effect on the management budget which then prompts more and more reduced services, which means less and less hunters.... it's a snowball effect until there's very little hunting left and zero predator management or any management for that matter for lack of funding.

 So which is it?

 You stated you are only interested in growing the herds, now you are concerned with federal money and budgets?

 Do you really think less hunters money is going to negatively effect government greed and funding whatever they feel needs more money? Did you just read your ballet and vote on the any of the advisory issues?

 “The legislature increased, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature imposed, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature expanded, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature extended, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 And you are seriously concerned that less money being misappropriated from hunters is actually going to effect management? Clearly they do whatever they want/need, in order to get the money they need.

 There is no “management” now, what difference is it really going to make?
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline jmscon

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2019, 10:49:39 AM »
Lawmakers have been imposing taxes without the vote of the people since statehood. The advisory voting is just a waste of paper.


Carry on
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Offline jmscon

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2019, 10:54:38 AM »
What about regions, as Idaho does, but limit tags to historic numbers or as needed to improve or inhibit herds. And you can only hunt that zone. Not a huge difference from what we have now.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 11:16:27 AM by jmscon »
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Offline huntnphool

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2019, 10:55:43 AM »
Lawmakers have been imposing taxes without the vote of the people since statehood. The advisory voting is just a waste of paper.


Carry on

 Agreed
The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left by those who got there first!

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2019, 10:58:52 AM »
 
<snip> WDFW's resting state is incompetence or laziness when it comes to game management...sadly...unlike predators...they really could do something here without worrying about interference from the Governor's office.



This is the truth of the matter folks, Inslee will sink anything meaningful regarding Predators.   In light of this fact calling for reductions in opportunity is shooting ourselves in the foot.   Without predator control the population will continue its decline, the predators will grow in population to suck up what we don't take and the decline will continue.   Any deer/elk WE don't take is one more for a cat, a wolf, a bear or a tribal member that rejoices there's a few less white guys to compete with. 


With inslee sinking predator control, I don't see a win no matter how much WE sacrifice.
Your statements are based on the false and simplistic view that all herds in all places are limited by non-human predation.  The reality is - there are areas where HUNTER harvest is why virtually no mule deer bucks make it past 2.5 years old.  Unless you can explain to me how it is cougars, wolves, and bears are only eating 3pt or bigger bucks...those are the areas where going to permit only would be successful.  If there are no deer surviving because of predators or other non-hunting factors, then I would agree...pointless to limit hunting as it would not do anything.  But in the real world - hunter harvest has a very significant effect on populations and their composition and it needs to be managed, not ignored by WDFW.

Exactly! On my late tag there couldn’t be any more glaring evidence of hunters wiping out 3pt or better bucks. I saw tons of forks, spikes and 2x1’s yet only 2 3pt bucks . Somehow predators ate them all as they must be following the state 3pt min.

Something everyone on this forum can do legally is hunt bears and yotes. Bears wreak havoc in June on calves and fawns ! Idaho just released a study in Clearwater and selway where 44-46% of the elk calf mortality was due to bears. Yet I’d be willing to bet 10% of the guys bitching about elk and deer numbers don’t even attempt to hunt bears.

I understand that hunting 3pt or better changes the genetics and we end up with huge forkies and lots of spikes.   Not a fan of 3pt or larger. 

I also understand your and other's desire to make it permit only to better the quality of the hunt, and it would, but it would also reduce the overall amount of hunters.

If the state is getting $3.00 of federal monies for every $1.00 of state money spent, there's a big incentive to keep as many people hunting as possible.   




I just think that if permit hunting replaced a lot of our current OTC hunts we'd see far fewer people buy in, and that matched federal dollars would dry up and it would have a profound effect on the management budget which then prompts more and more reduced services, which means less and less hunters.... it's a snowball effect until there's very little hunting left and zero predator management or any management for that matter for lack of funding.

 So which is it?

 You stated you are only interested in growing the herds, now you are concerned with federal money and budgets?

 Do you really think less hunters money is going to negatively effect government greed and funding whatever they feel needs more money? Did you just read your ballet and vote on the any of the advisory issues?

 “The legislature increased, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature imposed, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature expanded, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature extended, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 And you are seriously concerned that less money being misappropriated from hunters is actually going to effect management? Clearly they do whatever they want/need, in order to get the money they need.

 There is no “management” now, what difference is it really going to make?
:chuckle: Exactly...sounds like your issue KF is growing the deer management budget...not the deer herds!
Money is not an issue.  WDFW could do 3x the job they do now with 1/4 the funding they get if they had their priorities straight.  Bottom line - important management changes should not be dictated by revenue needs...thats how wdfw has operated for the last several decades, its what gave us this convoluted mess of a points system, and so many other dumb things.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline Ironhead

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2019, 11:32:48 AM »
Money can't fix this, It will take drastic change in hunter days a field and predator control to ever get it to where it should be.
"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is, that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Sundance

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #118 on: November 13, 2019, 11:48:28 AM »
Do what Idaho did and change the definition of bears from game animals to fur bearers. No meat salvage required, legal to sell the skull/hide/claws. Not my favorite option but I bet it would increase the harvest of bears if you didn't have to keep the meat- sadly.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Taking away quality permits or general season
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2019, 11:52:36 AM »
 
<snip> WDFW's resting state is incompetence or laziness when it comes to game management...sadly...unlike predators...they really could do something here without worrying about interference from the Governor's office.



This is the truth of the matter folks, Inslee will sink anything meaningful regarding Predators.   In light of this fact calling for reductions in opportunity is shooting ourselves in the foot.   Without predator control the population will continue its decline, the predators will grow in population to suck up what we don't take and the decline will continue.   Any deer/elk WE don't take is one more for a cat, a wolf, a bear or a tribal member that rejoices there's a few less white guys to compete with. 


With inslee sinking predator control, I don't see a win no matter how much WE sacrifice.
Your statements are based on the false and simplistic view that all herds in all places are limited by non-human predation.  The reality is - there are areas where HUNTER harvest is why virtually no mule deer bucks make it past 2.5 years old.  Unless you can explain to me how it is cougars, wolves, and bears are only eating 3pt or bigger bucks...those are the areas where going to permit only would be successful.  If there are no deer surviving because of predators or other non-hunting factors, then I would agree...pointless to limit hunting as it would not do anything.  But in the real world - hunter harvest has a very significant effect on populations and their composition and it needs to be managed, not ignored by WDFW.

Exactly! On my late tag there couldn’t be any more glaring evidence of hunters wiping out 3pt or better bucks. I saw tons of forks, spikes and 2x1’s yet only 2 3pt bucks . Somehow predators ate them all as they must be following the state 3pt min.

Something everyone on this forum can do legally is hunt bears and yotes. Bears wreak havoc in June on calves and fawns ! Idaho just released a study in Clearwater and selway where 44-46% of the elk calf mortality was due to bears. Yet I’d be willing to bet 10% of the guys bitching about elk and deer numbers don’t even attempt to hunt bears.

I understand that hunting 3pt or better changes the genetics and we end up with huge forkies and lots of spikes.   Not a fan of 3pt or larger. 

I also understand your and other's desire to make it permit only to better the quality of the hunt, and it would, but it would also reduce the overall amount of hunters.

If the state is getting $3.00 of federal monies for every $1.00 of state money spent, there's a big incentive to keep as many people hunting as possible.   




I just think that if permit hunting replaced a lot of our current OTC hunts we'd see far fewer people buy in, and that matched federal dollars would dry up and it would have a profound effect on the management budget which then prompts more and more reduced services, which means less and less hunters.... it's a snowball effect until there's very little hunting left and zero predator management or any management for that matter for lack of funding.

 So which is it?

 You stated you are only interested in growing the herds, now you are concerned with federal money and budgets?

 Do you really think less hunters money is going to negatively effect government greed and funding whatever they feel needs more money? Did you just read your ballet and vote on the any of the advisory issues?

 “The legislature increased, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature imposed, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature expanded, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 “The legislature extended, without a vote of the people, a tax...”

 And you are seriously concerned that less money being misappropriated from hunters is actually going to effect management? Clearly they do whatever they want/need, in order to get the money they need.

 There is no “management” now, what difference is it really going to make?
:chuckle: Exactly...sounds like your issue KF is growing the deer management budget...not the deer herds!
Money is not an issue.  WDFW could do 3x the job they do now with 1/4 the funding they get if they had their priorities straight.  Bottom line - important management changes should not be dictated by revenue needs...thats how wdfw has operated for the last several decades, its what gave us this convoluted mess of a points system, and so many other dumb things.

good points both of you, and I'm just as jaded as the both of you on management of our herds. 

I think its going to take a lot of $$ for the state to manage predators, I don't think hunters will get it done without states' help.   If we don't have hunters funding, then the state isn't going too, but I digress, the state isn't no matter how much && they get right now, gotta have a lot more pain.   

So I'm back to scorched earth, kill them all and starve the predators.   

If we have a couple "good" areas of the state with well managed mule herds your draw odds will work its way to .01% just like most of our elk draws. 
You just know someone like Rinella is going to draw a coveted WA mule tag and make a tv show  :chuckle:


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