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Author Topic: Deer Antler Point Regs  (Read 5146 times)

Offline hunter399

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2020, 09:39:15 PM »
If APRs dont work, get rid of them......if they DO work, quit telling us they dont work when we ask for them in region 1, AND you still have them in region 1 se. wa. (whitetail)
I agree
Your for APR or your not.
How about a quota system for deer.We all run out shoot the first buck we see,harvest,report.And have like a five day season when quotas are hit.
Or no quota and just the five day season with no APR.
OR Permit system where WDFW makes a bucket of 💰 and the point creep is great after one year.
Mule deer changing three point min .
Any changes now that we have that APR.so long .Is gonna be the last nail in the coffin.

Predators ya it's a issue , But if you think WDFW is gonna come up with some magic snake oil
regulations.Wish ya the best of luck,keep dreaming,praying,maybe it will come true.
But I have no faith that we will ever see major predator mangement.


Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Skyvalhunter

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2020, 05:14:11 AM »
So whats YOUR solution?

Offline hunter399

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2020, 05:27:38 AM »
So whats YOUR solution?
I really don't have one.
I don't want shorter season,quotas,or permit only for deer.OTC deer seasons is fine by me.If we have to have APR for whitetail/higher APR for mule deer. In certain gmu where harvest numbers have dramatic drops are.Then so be it.
I guess harvest reports should tell a story of where deer herds are hurting the most.
Like said your for it , or against it.But with that said being against.You have to remember WDFW job is to keep sustainable populations,so permits,quotas,shorter season are always possible.
If I had to choose between APR /OTC VS PERMIT season I would choose APR any day of the week and have the opportunity to hunt but maybe not harvest.Then press my luck in the draws.
But everybody is different some people might like some gmu going to permit only. :dunno:
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 05:33:52 AM by hunter399 »
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline hunter399

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2020, 05:59:52 AM »
If I had the POWER!
Regs iN NE WASHINGTON gmu 121/117
Would be as follows
Mule deer stays the same 3pt min
Modern firearm
Youth/ whitetail doe hunt early season/late buck any buck
65/disabled /Any buck/early and late season
Everybody eles 2pt min/whitetail

Archery
First 10 days doe season/whitetail
2pt min rest of season

Muzzleloader
Any buck.

I believe if you wanna sell tags , you have to sell opportunity,with sustainable population in mind I'm not all for discouraged hunting or taking hunting opportunity but to create opportunity with some conservative regulations that look out for population for the next hunting season.On top of this plan would be no doe permits for whitetail/mule deer.And season length would stay the same.
Everybody has different ideas of what deer mangement should look. :dunno:
Then with this plan anything could be subject to change based on harvest reports next year.
Example
Youth might go to a any buck one year,back to doe the next.
Muzzleloader might go 2pt min/then back to any buck the next year.

Just based on harvest reports to ensure doe harvest is low/spike buck is kept low.

This plan allows most users to have oppertunity at some meat .
Example
65/disabled can road hunt shoot a spike.
Bow hunters get a doe season but have to do it at the beginning and not the end of season.
Muzzleloader opportunities don't really change at all.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 06:23:54 AM by hunter399 »
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Miles

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2020, 06:20:45 AM »
Some of you arguing could start your suggested improvements by practicing what you preach.  It’s pretty easy to keep your finger off the trigger on younger bucks once you decide to. Let the younger hunters just starting out shoot the younger bucks that are generally easier to kill, and let the more experienced hunting groups hold out for the mature bucks.   It’ll all average out.   I hunt an area where spike and up are legal (mule deer), there’s plenty of opportunity for mature bucks.

I can remember as a kid I shot a very small buck.  I was as excited as could be.  A family member I was hunting with walked up and said “congratulations, now from this point forward we let ones like that walk”.  He was excited for me, but also guiding me to be a better hunter in the future.   I think if there was more of this, we wouldn’t need people creating laws for us.

 

Offline hunter399

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2020, 06:33:05 AM »
Some of you arguing could start your suggested improvements by practicing what you preach.  It’s pretty easy to keep your finger off the trigger on younger bucks once you decide to. Let the younger hunters just starting out shoot the younger bucks that are generally easier to kill, and let the more experienced hunting groups hold out for the mature bucks.   It’ll all average out.   I hunt an area where spike and up are legal (mule deer), there’s plenty of opportunity for mature bucks.

I can remember as a kid I shot a very small buck.  I was as excited as could be.  A family member I was hunting with walked up and said “congratulations, now from this point forward we let ones like that walk”.  He was excited for me, but also guiding me to be a better hunter in the future.   I think if there was more of this, we wouldn’t need people creating laws for us.
I'm not sure if your hunting mule deer in Washington, but it's 3pt min with some antlerless areas included.I don't believe there is a spike and up area.But maybe somebody eles might know better. :dunno:

I do agree with most of your comment,but most hunters have no self control and need regs to keep populations in check.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2020, 11:44:18 AM »
Mule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs) Don’t Work
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/cont...VIE0006790.pdf

• APRs have been shown to reduce the number and potentially the quality of mature bucks over time.
• Long-term use of APRs may target legal bucks that have not realized their full antler growth potential while protecting bucks with low antler growth potential (i.e., hunters select against legal bucks with smaller antlers). Although not validated by research, this is a concern among wildlife professionals and the public.



One of the truisms of life is that we get more of what we protect.  Do we want more spikes as a percentage of the bucks in a herd?  Sometimes we are protecting something different than what we think we are. 

IME/O protecting spikes results eventually in a herd that has a LOT of big old spikes and mature bucks with small racks and few points.  Simple genetics.  California had a 2 point or better buck season for decades and resulted in a high percentage of spike bucks and huge gnarly old fork horns, though maybe they always had a lot of spikes in California.  I hunted it after 50 years of fork horn or better seasons.

In most areas, a healthy 18 month old buck with good genetics will normally be a fork horn, and some will have 3 or more points per side.  I'd like to protect THOSE bucks with their exceptional genes rather than spikes. 

In Texas behind fences, they kill spikes, protect multi-tined young bucks-- and a high percentage of bucks have BIG antlers. 

I have hunted 4 point or better late mule deer seasons and enjoyed them the most of any deer hunting I've done, even though success was low. 

Protect spikes?  With respect, my opinion differs.

Spikes have been protected already under the 3 point or better rule for awhile now in this state, with all due respect I,m not seeing any old, monster spikes running around, at least in the areas I hunt in eastern Washington, NOW high fenced deer in Texas etc., I cannot offer a thought on.  On the other hand, with rules the way they are now(3 point or better, counting 1" eye guards) I have seen many older, monster 2 points out there that yes, they are doing some breeding and those genes are being spread, not to mention the hundreds of 2 points that are being shot by mistake for no good reason and left to rot. IMHO, point restrictions should not be permanent or go on for decades, they should be used when needed to bolster herd size/ratios or clean up gene pools. All I am really saying is IF they(wdfw) are so deadset on a point restriction philosophy then go to a spike ban, at the very least it will cut down on the hundreds of 2 points that are being wasted out there, 2nd option would be go ahead and keep the 3 point rule but eliminate the counting of eye guards on mule deer. They could get rid of ALL the point restriction garbage AND make headway with hunters and sportsmen/women in this state by taking on aggressively the cougar and bear explosion and possibly even gain some support and respect from the same, heck, I just talked with a buddy in the Methow saying they found 2 yearling lions under someones deck in Winthrop! He said thats not even an oddity anymore over there, he said he knows of 3 or 4 other instances where cougars have been shot right through peoples porches or decks.....The real problem to declining deer herds is right in plain site and here we all are arguing about stupid restrictions they keep slapping on us as hunters, don't anybody ever tell you they don't know exactly what they are doing.... :twocents:

Offline buckfvr

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2020, 12:06:28 PM »
If I had the POWER!
Regs iN NE WASHINGTON gmu 121/117
Would be as follows
Mule deer stays the same 3pt min
Modern firearm
Youth/ whitetail doe hunt early season/late buck any buck
65/disabled /Any buck/early and late season
Everybody eles 2pt min/whitetail

Archery
First 10 days doe season/whitetail
2pt min rest of season

Muzzleloader
Any buck.

I believe if you wanna sell tags , you have to sell opportunity,with sustainable population in mind I'm not all for discouraged hunting or taking hunting opportunity but to create opportunity with some conservative regulations that look out for population for the next hunting season.On top of this plan would be no doe permits for whitetail/mule deer.And season length would stay the same.
Everybody has different ideas of what deer mangement should look. :dunno:
Then with this plan anything could be subject to change based on harvest reports next year.
Example
Youth might go to a any buck one year,back to doe the next.
Muzzleloader might go 2pt min/then back to any buck the next year.

Just based on harvest reports to ensure doe harvest is low/spike buck is kept low.

This plan allows most users to have oppertunity at some meat .
Example
65/disabled can road hunt shoot a spike.
Bow hunters get a doe season but have to do it at the beginning and not the end of season.
Muzzleloader opportunities don't really change at all.


Good thing youre not in power.......2 pt mini ????   I see less 2 pts than any other configuration, and you must not be getting the point, our herds cant support any buck any more, period, or doe harvest and why do old guys need to kill does (Im 65 and you couldnt get me to shoot a doe) ????  You need meat ????   Its cheaper at the store.  Many of the 18mo old bucks here are small 4pts so why any buck.....hence 4pt rule.  Youth are the only user group who need any buck, and that needs to be general season only. 

Offline hunter399

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2020, 12:26:44 PM »
If I had the POWER!
Regs iN NE WASHINGTON gmu 121/117
Would be as follows
Mule deer stays the same 3pt min
Modern firearm
Youth/ whitetail doe hunt early season/late buck any buck
65/disabled /Any buck/early and late season
Everybody eles 2pt min/whitetail

Archery
First 10 days doe season/whitetail
2pt min rest of season

Muzzleloader
Any buck.

I believe if you wanna sell tags , you have to sell opportunity,with sustainable population in mind I'm not all for discouraged hunting or taking hunting opportunity but to create opportunity with some conservative regulations that look out for population for the next hunting season.On top of this plan would be no doe permits for whitetail/mule deer.And season length would stay the same.
Everybody has different ideas of what deer mangement should look. :dunno:
Then with this plan anything could be subject to change based on harvest reports next year.
Example
Youth might go to a any buck one year,back to doe the next.
Muzzleloader might go 2pt min/then back to any buck the next year.

Just based on harvest reports to ensure doe harvest is low/spike buck is kept low.

This plan allows most users to have oppertunity at some meat .
Example
65/disabled can road hunt shoot a spike.
Bow hunters get a doe season but have to do it at the beginning and not the end of season.
Muzzleloader opportunities don't really change at all.


Good thing youre not in power.......2 pt mini ????   I see less 2 pts than any other configuration, and you must not be getting the point, our herds cant support any buck any more, period, or doe harvest and why do old guys need to kill does (Im 65 and you couldnt get me to shoot a doe) ????  You need meat ????   Its cheaper at the store.  Many of the 18mo old bucks here are small 4pts so why any buck.....hence 4pt rule.  Youth are the only user group who need any buck, and that needs to be general season only. 
The regulations now are any buck.I'm in favor of the 4pt min don't get me wrong those where great years to hunt.
And I'm not old enough for doe so I'm in my forty something years just a fyi and I'm not a bow Hunter so I'm not looking for a doe tag :chuckle:.The plan up there said 65/disabled would be( any buck.)The only people in My plan that would have a doe tag,youth (early season),bow Hunter (first ten day of bow season)
My plan would lay out a plan WDFW could support.
WDFW won't support the 4pt min its to much of lost revenue .You have to remember WDFW priorities is.
1) money
2)opportunity which =more money
3)sustainable populations
I almost sure in next few years doe harvest will come back to the NE Washington ,youth,65, disabled , or permits.
Its a lost revenue that will come back when populations rebound.
You have to tell yourself do you want a APR.2pt APR is better then no APR which is what we have now.With WDFW you have to sell opportunity which equals money, for change to happen.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 01:05:32 PM by hunter399 »
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Bango skank

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2020, 12:30:40 PM »
Mule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs) Don’t Work
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/cont...VIE0006790.pdf

• APRs have been shown to reduce the number and potentially the quality of mature bucks over time.
• Long-term use of APRs may target legal bucks that have not realized their full antler growth potential while protecting bucks with low antler growth potential (i.e., hunters select against legal bucks with smaller antlers). Although not validated by research, this is a concern among wildlife professionals and the public.

 Do we want more spikes as a percentage of the bucks in a herd?  those spikes arent going to stay spikes

IME/O protecting spikes results eventually in a herd that has a LOT of big old spikes  what?
Big old spikes?  Never heard of such a thing

  Simple genetics. a bucks antlers at 1.5 yr old doesnt tell you what they will be when he reaches maturity.  Spikes can catch up to the bigger yearlings after a couple years.  Often small racked yearlings are a result of poor nutrition or being born later than other bucks.  Being born later often being caused by a rut that drags out too long, does being bred in 2nd or even 3rd estrous, which is often caused by a poor buck to doe ratio and buck age structure.  Protecting the most vulnerable (youngest) bucks via apr is a way to counter this.  A better buck to doe ratio and age structure results in a shorter more intense rut.  Does get bred in a shorter time period, fawn drop is saturated helping more to survive predation, and bucks dont wear themselves out rutting an extra month, so they go into winter in better condition, resulting in less buck winter kill, further improving buck to doe ratio and buck age structure.  Also a better buck to doe ratio and buck age structure means more rubs, more scrapes, more daylight rut activity, in other words, a better hunting experience 

In most areas, a healthy 18 month old buck with good genetics will normally be a fork horn, and some will have 3 or more points per side.  I'd like to protect THOSE bucks with their exceptional genes rather than spikes.    once again, many things go into play that determine a 1.5 yr old bucks rack, its not just genetics

In Texas behind fences, they kill spikes, protect multi-tined young bucks-- and a high percentage of bucks have BIG antlersare you talking high fence or low fence?  High fence operations have really no bearing on low fence free range deer management.  So lets talk low fence.  Just because people cull spikes doesnt mean they know what theyre doing.  They do it because thats what dad did.  He did it because thats what grandpa did.  In no way can you determine a bucks genetic potential by its first rack.  Also, they get half their genes from their mother, can you see her "antler genetics?"  And if were talking low fence, especially in a place like texas where rut can run late, theres a very good chance that the "cull buck" spikes theyre killing are only about a month or so from dispersing from their natal range.  Whitetail bucks disperse at that age.  Those wouldnt be sticking around to breed on that property.  Also, the big bucks on these highly managed private texas ranches, well, theyre big chunks of private land with highly regulated hunter access, food plots, feeders and a lack of arge predators.  The size these bucks reach can largely be attributed to age and nutrition rather than genetics.  The cull buck thing has been thoroughly debunked. 

.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 12:40:17 PM by Bango skank »

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2020, 12:59:30 PM »
Well, well, check out the "Other big game thread"-hungry cougar topic, reply #41(I believe).

This is the problem folks, this is the REAL problem. If they would address it, tackle it and aggressively do something about it then this all goes away, folks could go out and kill a nice little 2 point meat buck if they liked or could hold out for a big fella. Younger folks could go out and kill a nice little spike or 2 point for their first buck like my son did years ago and as they got older could be more selective, heck, every once in awhile they could even sell doe tags to help reduce herd size and put more money in the coffers. WDFW would sell more tags, it would open up more options for them through special hunts, doe hunts, trophy units/areas and so on and so on, the options could be huge, but sadly that would take healthy deer herds like we had 25 years ago, pre predator boom, instead we just watch our herds continue to slide and sit around debating the more and more restrictions or take-aways they want to hit us as hunters with. Im not kidding, the biggest, most destructive force that is destroying our deer herds is predators, and number 1 on that list is cougars. With a drastic reduction to cougars and bears in places like the Methow, even with the wolf out there, I believe and others I know and respect believe that we could have close to all that which I mentioned above  within a handful-8 years.... :twocents:... sorry, carry on :tup:

Offline hunter399

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2020, 01:11:46 PM »
Well, well, check out the "Other big game thread"-hungry cougar topic, reply #41(I believe).

This is the problem folks, this is the REAL problem. If they would address it, tackle it and aggressively do something about it then this all goes away, folks could go out and kill a nice little 2 point meat buck if they liked or could hold out for a big fella. Younger folks could go out and kill a nice little spike or 2 point for their first buck like my son did years ago and as they got older could be more selective, heck, every once in awhile they could even sell doe tags to help reduce herd size and put more money in the coffers. WDFW would sell more tags, it would open up more options for them through special hunts, doe hunts, trophy units/areas and so on and so on, the options could be huge, but sadly that would take healthy deer herds like we had 25 years ago, pre predator boom, instead we just watch our herds continue to slide and sit around debating the more and more restrictions or take-aways they want to hit us as hunters with. Im not kidding, the biggest, most destructive force that is destroying our deer herds is predators, and number 1 on that list is cougars. With a drastic reduction to cougars and bears in places like the Methow, even with the wolf out there, I believe and others I know and respect believe that we could have close to all that which I mentioned above  within a handful-8 years.... :twocents:... sorry, carry on :tup:
Don't get me wrong I totally agree.
But it would take 8 years of cougar study and reports ect .before you would see any progress on cougar harvest.They have a new cougar plan coming out right now you might be interested in .But I wouldn't count it as some magical fix all. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Bango skank

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2020, 01:37:48 PM »
Well, well, check out the "Other big game thread"-hungry cougar topic, reply #41(I believe).

This is the problem folks, this is the REAL problem. If they would address it, tackle it and aggressively do something about it then this all goes away, folks could go out and kill a nice little 2 point meat buck if they liked or could hold out for a big fella. Younger folks could go out and kill a nice little spike or 2 point for their first buck like my son did years ago and as they got older could be more selective, heck, every once in awhile they could even sell doe tags to help reduce herd size and put more money in the coffers. WDFW would sell more tags, it would open up more options for them through special hunts, doe hunts, trophy units/areas and so on and so on, the options could be huge, but sadly that would take healthy deer herds like we had 25 years ago, pre predator boom, instead we just watch our herds continue to slide and sit around debating the more and more restrictions or take-aways they want to hit us as hunters with. Im not kidding, the biggest, most destructive force that is destroying our deer herds is predators, and number 1 on that list is cougars. With a drastic reduction to cougars and bears in places like the Methow, even with the wolf out there, I believe and others I know and respect believe that we could have close to all that which I mentioned above  within a handful-8 years.... :twocents:... sorry, carry on :tup:

Yes predators are the big problem.  Everybody wants that fixed.  But in the mean time we have to face the reality of our current bad situation and try to manage ungulates properly too.  We can get a 4pt apr way before well ever get hounds and leg holds.

Offline buckfvr

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2020, 01:45:23 PM »
Friends dont let friends shoot baby deer............

Offline bigmacc

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Re: Deer Antler Point Regs
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2020, 03:17:08 PM »
Well, well, check out the "Other big game thread"-hungry cougar topic, reply #41(I believe).

This is the problem folks, this is the REAL problem. If they would address it, tackle it and aggressively do something about it then this all goes away, folks could go out and kill a nice little 2 point meat buck if they liked or could hold out for a big fella. Younger folks could go out and kill a nice little spike or 2 point for their first buck like my son did years ago and as they got older could be more selective, heck, every once in awhile they could even sell doe tags to help reduce herd size and put more money in the coffers. WDFW would sell more tags, it would open up more options for them through special hunts, doe hunts, trophy units/areas and so on and so on, the options could be huge, but sadly that would take healthy deer herds like we had 25 years ago, pre predator boom, instead we just watch our herds continue to slide and sit around debating the more and more restrictions or take-aways they want to hit us as hunters with. Im not kidding, the biggest, most destructive force that is destroying our deer herds is predators, and number 1 on that list is cougars. With a drastic reduction to cougars and bears in places like the Methow, even with the wolf out there, I believe and others I know and respect believe that we could have close to all that which I mentioned above  within a handful-8 years.... :twocents:... sorry, carry on :tup:
Don't get me wrong I totally agree.
But it would take 8 years of cougar study and reports ect .before you would see any progress on cougar harvest.They have a new cougar plan coming out right now you might be interested in .But I wouldn't count it as some magical fix all. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

Oh I get it and I think most of us get it, thats the way this state operates. The politics have taken over managing our game and therein lies the problem. There is a "magical fix all" or close to it and it doesn't need to involve leg holds and hounds, treat hunting lions for 5-8 years the way we treat coyotes in places like the Methow for example that are being over-run with cougars, something in that vein could be implemented within weeks, but as you said years of study would need to be done costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, for crying out loud they are living under peoples porches, walking down streets in town, killing and dragging prey under bridges within the city limits people are and have seen more and more cougars every year in the Methow for years now and now with the declining herd they are getting more desperate and bold and coming into peoples property, yards etc. to kill the town deer. While they waste their time and our money doing their"studies" to see if the Methow herd has been decimated and predator numbers are climbing some little kid is going to be attacked in their own backyard, like I said and mark my words, Its just a matter of time unfortunately and the clock is ticking, by this time next year theres going to be many, many more cougars in that valley, its plain as the nose on our face, hundreds upon hundreds of mule deer are going to be killed by them and thats a fact and more and more are going to become desperate and bold.

 


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2020 elk harvest by hughjorgan
[Today at 02:32:56 PM]


Wts Swarovski Slc 10x42 by Stevewazfishing
[Today at 02:26:15 PM]


The wait begins by dmoua
[Today at 02:26:03 PM]


Stihl 021 Chainsaw by Jingles
[Today at 02:18:59 PM]


Mathews for sale by buckfvr
[Today at 02:12:01 PM]


FREE drift boat by h20hunter
[Today at 02:02:40 PM]


Endangered Winthrop Species by Wanderer
[Today at 01:37:42 PM]


2020 kettle falls sturgeon by PA BEN
[Today at 01:22:41 PM]


Wyoming by Alchase
[Today at 12:49:47 PM]


Play Free: Hunting-Washington $100 Monthly Lotto! by Igottanewknee
[Today at 12:49:24 PM]


Cowiche Bull by MikeC
[Today at 11:49:45 AM]


Hunting at Scatter Creek? by one more
[Today at 11:45:49 AM]


Rimrock Modern_ by jaredwitman
[Today at 10:47:09 AM]


Olympic Peninsula Hunting Strategies by Alchase
[Today at 10:30:01 AM]


New to hunting by Newb2020/509
[Today at 10:27:16 AM]


Danner pronghorn Hunting boots by duckmen1
[Today at 10:26:05 AM]


Is he legal? by 10thmountainarcher
[Today at 10:25:12 AM]