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Author Topic: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?  (Read 11130 times)

Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2020, 06:29:25 PM »
Ghosthunter,

Like others have pointed out the WDFW allowed too high of a harvest through special permits.

2015 for example saw a harvest of antlerless elk in the quilomene 163, naneum 171, manastash 145,  umtanum 166, little naches 123, and cowiche 128. These were all special permit and a large amount of cows were taken by modern and muzzy in the Yakima and ellensburg areas. Archery harvest has been consistent until the years where too many special permits were issued. The herd is below objective now because of the WDFW, not because archery hunters. Archery hunters have lost days in the field, they have lost special permits opportunities and they have lost opportunities now to harvest elk. Archery hunters take of cows have been cut in half since the over harvest by special permit. So why should archery take it in the shorts again because WDFW did a poor job of managing the resource?
[/quote
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Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2020, 06:31:46 PM »
Ghosthunter,

Like others have pointed out the WDFW allowed too high of a harvest through special permits.

2015 for example saw a harvest of antlerless elk in the quilomene 163, naneum 171, manastash 145,  umtanum 166, little naches 123, and cowiche 128. These were all special permit and a large amount of cows were taken by modern and muzzy in the Yakima and ellensburg areas. Archery harvest has been consistent until the years where too many special permits were issued. The herd is below objective now because of the WDFW, not because archery hunters. Archery hunters have lost days in the field, they have lost special permits opportunities and they have lost opportunities now to harvest elk. Archery hunters take of cows have been cut in half since the over harvest by special permit. So why should archery take it in the shorts again because WDFW did a poor job of managing the resource?
[/quote


donít disagree with you.

So how do we fix it?  No cow tags for awhile will help.
We are hung up on our little area of interest. Because everyone thinks they have the short straw.
Regardless of how we got here I donít believe it will get better until cow tags are eliminated for a period of time.  If the WDFW offers the tags every user group will use them.  I would too. If those are the cards we are dealt , so be it.
But sooner or later the bullet has to be bitten.
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We are all traveling from Birth to the Packing House. ( Broken Trail)

Offline robodad

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2020, 06:34:24 PM »
Make archery 2pt, muzzy 4pt or better and rifle 6pt or better and everyone draw for cows !
The essense of freedom is the proper limitation of government !!!

Offline hughjorgan

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2020, 06:46:43 PM »
Ghosthunter,

Like others have pointed out the WDFW allowed too high of a harvest through special permits.

2015 for example saw a harvest of antlerless elk in the quilomene 163, naneum 171, manastash 145,  umtanum 166, little naches 123, and cowiche 128. These were all special permit and a large amount of cows were taken by modern and muzzy in the Yakima and ellensburg areas. Archery harvest has been consistent until the years where too many special permits were issued. The herd is below objective now because of the WDFW, not because archery hunters. Archery hunters have lost days in the field, they have lost special permits opportunities and they have lost opportunities now to harvest elk. Archery hunters take of cows have been cut in half since the over harvest by special permit. So why should archery take it in the shorts again because WDFW did a poor job of managing the resource?
[/quote


donít disagree with you.

So how do we fix it?  No cow tags for awhile will help.
We are hung up on our little area of interest. Because everyone thinks they have the short straw.
Regardless of how we got here I donít believe it will get better until cow tags are eliminated for a period of time.  If the WDFW offers the tags every user group will use them.  I would too. If those are the cards we are dealt , so be it.
But sooner or later the bullet has to be bitten.

I donít think the WDFW will do what it needs too. All you have to do is look at how they have sat on their hands with the deer herds in Yakima. Hunting is abysmal for deer and now the elk herds arenít doing much better.

I guess that is why I am spending September out of state hunting like a lot of other guys are doing as well.

Offline snake

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2020, 06:54:07 PM »
The WDFW/ Washington "Kill em all, or Save them All mentality does not work.  set low conservative number of cow tags for every group and let it ride for 5 years.

Offline zwickeyman

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2020, 07:00:49 PM »
 :yeah:
The WDFW/ Washington "Kill em all, or Save them All mentality does not work.  set low conservative number of cow tags for every group and let it ride for 5 years.

Offline NOCK NOCK

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2020, 07:29:03 PM »
I have said it multiple times....

If you want to help the herds, you need to control the predators (humans)

NO MORE MULTI PERMITS.

The elk get hunted hard for 2 weeks by "George" during archery. He covers lots of ground, busts out many elk before he gets a shot, but never connects.
Then George spends an additional week in the field chasing elk with his muzzy. George has the same results as he did with his bow.
Finally George, running low on meat, and seasons, hunts even harder through the entire rifle season, pushing more elk around. Maybe he gets one, maybe he doesn't.
George has now spent the better part of 3 months in elk country, which has a huge impact on their breeding and habits.

Lions, wolves, yotes, bears, tribal, state hunters, are all doing their thing too.

Now take George's scenario and multiply it by  X number of multi permit hunters....its quite easy to see the effect this is having on our critters.

We are pressuring them wayyyyyy to much.

No More Multi Permits !!!!!!

 
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Offline hunter399

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2020, 09:15:27 PM »
I have said it multiple times....

If you want to help the herds, you need to control the predators (humans)

NO MORE MULTI PERMITS.

The elk get hunted hard for 2 weeks by "George" during archery. He covers lots of ground, busts out many elk before he gets a shot, but never connects.
Then George spends an additional week in the field chasing elk with his muzzy. George has the same results as he did with his bow.
Finally George, running low on meat, and seasons, hunts even harder through the entire rifle season, pushing more elk around. Maybe he gets one, maybe he doesn't.
George has now spent the better part of 3 months in elk country, which has a huge impact on their breeding and habits.

Lions, wolves, yotes, bears, tribal, state hunters, are all doing their thing too.

Now take George's scenario and multiply it by  X number of multi permit hunters....its quite easy to see the effect this is having on our critters.

We are pressuring them wayyyyyy to much.

No More Multi Permits !!!!!!
Agreed  :yeah:
Its a money bag push That's really effects populations chance of winter survival.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline hughjorgan

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2020, 09:33:16 PM »
I have said it multiple times....

If you want to help the herds, you need to control the predators (humans)

NO MORE MULTI PERMITS.

The elk get hunted hard for 2 weeks by "George" during archery. He covers lots of ground, busts out many elk before he gets a shot, but never connects.
Then George spends an additional week in the field chasing elk with his muzzy. George has the same results as he did with his bow.
Finally George, running low on meat, and seasons, hunts even harder through the entire rifle season, pushing more elk around. Maybe he gets one, maybe he doesn't.
George has now spent the better part of 3 months in elk country, which has a huge impact on their breeding and habits.

Lions, wolves, yotes, bears, tribal, state hunters, are all doing their thing too.

Now take George's scenario and multiply it by  X number of multi permit hunters....its quite easy to see the effect this is having on our critters.

We are pressuring them wayyyyyy to much.

No More Multi Permits !!!!!!

Apparently I need Georgeís job who has a months worth of vacation to hunt elk through the fall.

Multi season tags are a waste of money IMO, just expands the weekend warriors season a few more weekends...

Offline NOCK NOCK

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2020, 07:47:12 AM »
I have been George.  I live to hunt. ALL my free time (vacation included) is devoted to it. Many others do the same.

We all complain about how crowded the woods are during each weapon season, but the overall #s of hunters is down. The answer to that is simple math,...Ö. there are thousands of us hunting every season.

 
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Offline JimmyHoffa

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2020, 08:14:58 AM »
A few people I know that got MS tags, ended up hunting less overall.  They would just do a little in archery or blow it off because they could make it up in the next four seasons.  Then only do a little in muzzy because they could fall back on rifle season.  Rifle season rolls around and they leave a little early because they still have late season options.  Late season comes and they are getting nagged by the wife for being gone so much and barely hunt it.

Offline Bango skank

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2020, 08:22:53 AM »
A few people I know that got MS tags, ended up hunting less overall.  They would just do a little in archery or blow it off because they could make it up in the next four seasons.  Then only do a little in muzzy because they could fall back on rifle season.  Rifle season rolls around and they leave a little early because they still have late season options.  Late season comes and they are getting nagged by the wife for being gone so much and barely hunt it.

I did even worse.  Drew multi elk in 2018.  Was in alaska all of archery, muzzy and mf seasons, and spent all of late archery elk season hunting deer.  8 years to draw that ms permit and didnt get to hunt elk one single day.

Offline HillHound

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2020, 08:43:05 AM »
 As others have already said the real answer is reduce the antlerless harvest overall. They are the ones that have the babies therefore they are the ones that grow the herds.  But  even this probably wouldnít make a difference with all the damage and tribal killing of the cows. If they switched the Eastside to three point minimum for all weapons  there would be a massive influx of new hunters but if Cow hunting was restricted completely I bet the end result would be a larger herd still the next year even with the greatly inflated success rates of bull hunters. And the downside would be people get a few less pictures of big bulls at the feeding station, A couple dozen less antlers wonít be picked up early by people sneaking in,and the jerky guy would have a few less racks to sell on craigslist.

Offline mburrows

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2020, 08:53:05 AM »
I'd be on board with taking away some OTC opportunities for deer and elk but keep it OTC for youth hunters in favor of people having a more quality experience and helping folks use their special permit points.  In place of the OTC tags give out higher number of draw hunts, have a couple draw archery seasons, a muzzy season and a couple rifle seasons that are each a week or two long.  Like Colorado does for mule deer and Arizona does for elk.

A non scientific example:

No more OTC tags for Entiat for Bucks or Does. Give out 200 early archery permits (Sept 1-14), 50 early muzzy permits (Sept 15-25), 50 early rifle permits (Sept 28th-Oct15), 20 2nd season rifle permits (Oct 18- Oct25), 15 3rd season rifle permits (October 31st-November 8th) and 25 late archery permits (Nov 15-25th)

Also sprinkle in more draw doe hunts when you remove OTC doe tags to hit harvest objectives.

This would help control the overall amount of pressure each unit sees and would allow more people to actually use their points. 

Offline kselkhunter

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Re: Is it time to make Bow Seasons same rules as Rifle and Muzzy?
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2020, 09:34:57 AM »
Pitting weapons groups against each other isn't going to resolve anything.   I hunt with all three weapons across multiple states, primarily to be able to fit in all the hunting to feed my elk hunting addiction.   


2018 WDFW stats: (2019 not posted yet)
Archery harvested 1,505 elk; 705 of those anterless
Rifle harvested 2,836 elk, 697 of those antlerless
Muzzy harvested 1,218 elk; 449 of those antlerless


Rifle hunters kill just as many cows as archery.   


If I were in charge of WDFW, I would not allow any anterless harvests.  I'd extend archery season back to the longer length it was in years past in exchange for removing the cow opportunities.  And I'd change the muzzy restriction back to NW legal, removing 209 primers.  No cow tags for any weapons seasons, special permit or OTC.  At least until such time the elk populations are healthier, then revisit a sane approach to cow tags.


And I would give a preference point for elk or deer (hunter's choice) for every cougar or bear harvested in WA state.  Incentivize people to harvest predators by giving them more preference points for elk and deer.   That would go a long way to improving ungulate populations by having guys spending time hunting predators more.   My  :twocents:   

 


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