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Author Topic: AR Accuracy  (Read 1135 times)

Offline Yondering

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2020, 02:08:58 PM »
I think it is reasonable to expect 1 MOA from an off the shelf Stag. They aren't a low end brand.

If you have a bad barrel that kind of sucks because they aren't known for their customer service.

Nothing wrong with a minute of zombie rifle.

If you really want to get into accuracy you probably want a free floated barrel anyways.

OP - I agree with Konrad that 1 moa is a reasonable expectation for most ARs with good ammo. However, "At least 0.5 to .75 moa" is too much to expect for that Stag, especially with the ammo/bullet choices listed. Don't expect a mid-low end AR to automatically shoot like a good target rifle.

For starters, don't waste your time with any FMJ bullet for accuracy. Get some good ammo, as mentioned a couple times above, or load yourself some good precision ammo with match bullets. The 69gr SMK was mentioned above, and the 65gr SGK can deliver similar accuracy with the right loads. The Hornady 75gr BTHP and the 77gr SMK are also good options. If you prefer light varmint bullets, the 50gr "Varmint Nightmare" bullets from Midsouth shoot very well when loaded with a max charge of XTerminator per the Western Powders 5.56 data (not the 223 data).

Learning how to load good precision ammo is a big part of this - using brass sized to fit your rifle's chamber, paying attention to (and minimizing) runout in cases and seated bullets, testing for optimum seating depth, powder charge, primers, etc all matter.

You're also going to want a good optic, and a decent trigger helps a lot as well. You're not going to shoot consistent 1 moa groups with a red dot sight for example, unless you're already a really good shot.

Shooting position and technique matters a lot too. It's not a hunting rifle, and technique is a little different, but you still have to get the basics down. Trigger control is going to be a big part of that, especially if you're trying to work with the stock trigger.

With all of that considered, I do think the accuracy goal described in the OP is too much to expect, at least until you've addressed the things I mentioned above.

Offline Jingles

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2020, 03:54:07 PM »
Thanks everyone for the responses and suggestions on what needs to be done  to make this get at least get close to my expectations after all a rifle regardless of what kind it is if it isn't accurate it isn't worth being called a rifle.  Maybe I'll never get it to be a 5 shot one hole performer but hopefully at least 5 of 5 in a quarter otherwise it's gonna be gone.
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Offline Alchase

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2020, 06:00:16 PM »
On the rifle side of the equation, in no particular order, Free floating decent barrel, Good trigger, good optics.
A decent bullet with consistent load, will get you to 1 MOA or better.  Just to state the obvious, this would be shooting from a bench, and providing the shooter is capable.

I am shocked how many are actually not capable. :chuckle:

Even standard issue Colts you would be extremely lucky to shoot 2 MOA out of the box.

Think of it this way, most off the shelf hunting rifles would not guarantee 1 MOA or better straight from the factory, until recently. With the exception of a few higher end rifles.
Now a lot of them do, and everyone has a decent trigger and consistent barrel.

The cool part, if your wish is to build a 1 MOA or better AR, you can get there fairly cheaply. Just throw the right parts at it.
Or you could buy one, but is won't be as cheap as building what you have.
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Offline konradcountry

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2020, 06:34:37 PM »
Even standard issue Colts you would be extremely lucky to shoot 2 MOA out of the box.

But is that still true? From what I have seen all rifle barrels have improved in the last few years due to improved manufacturing techniques.

I would bet that a DPMS Oracle off the shelf shoots around 1 MOA with the right ammo and they are as cheap as you can get.

The problem though is that if shoots 2 or 3 MOA you have to deal with it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPsLTuDk1A



Offline Alchase

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2020, 06:58:58 PM »
Even standard issue Colts you would be extremely lucky to shoot 2 MOA out of the box.

But is that still true? From what I have seen all rifle barrels have improved in the last few years due to improved manufacturing techniques.

I would bet that a DPMS Oracle off the shelf shoots around 1 MOA with the right ammo and they are as cheap as you can get.

The problem though is that if shoots 2 or 3 MOA you have to deal with it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPsLTuDk1A




I said standard issue Colts,
Per contract the M4 Accuracy standard is 4 MOA.
Though as you have said, they have improved. I still have yet to see a bone stock M4 hit better that 2 MOA, and those close were few and far between.


Only 2 defining forces sacrificed themselves for you:
The American Soldier and Jesus Christ. One died for your freedom, the other for your soul.

My rock,
He trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.
Psalm 144.1

Offline Dan-o

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2020, 07:01:52 PM »
Even standard issue Colts you would be extremely lucky to shoot 2 MOA out of the box.

But is that still true? From what I have seen all rifle barrels have improved in the last few years due to improved manufacturing techniques.

I would bet that a DPMS Oracle off the shelf shoots around 1 MOA with the right ammo and they are as cheap as you can get.

The problem though is that if shoots 2 or 3 MOA you have to deal with it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPsLTuDk1A




I said standard issue Colts,
Per contract the M4 Accuracy standard is 4 MOA.
Though as you have said, they have improved. I still have yet to see a bone stock M4 hit better that 2 MOA, and those close were few and far between.

4 MOA?!?!?

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Offline konradcountry

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2020, 07:11:44 PM »
I said standard issue Colts,
Per contract the M4 Accuracy standard is 4 MOA.
Though as you have said, they have improved. I still have yet to see a bone stock M4 hit better that 2 MOA, and those close were few and far between.

Wow had no idea the gov had such low standards.

I suppose they are shooting man sized targets with irons but am still shocked.

Offline Blacklab

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2020, 07:58:27 PM »
A change in primers might help. I went from standard to mag primers. Made a consider amount of difference. 
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Offline NWShooter

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2020, 10:51:47 PM »
Itís all about the barrel. Iíve had 75.00 mil-spec AR barrels shoot just as good as a $300.00 premium barrel. Some great barrels at a reasonable price are AR performance barrels ( AR15performance.com. ) His 16Ē 3R scout profile, Wylde chamber barrels are great.

https://ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/38007/55630
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Offline konradcountry

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2020, 12:27:10 AM »
Itís all about the barrel. Iíve had 75.00 mil-spec AR barrels shoot just as good as a $300.00 premium barrel.

Agree and I think you are paying to not gamble with premium barrels. You can get a Ballistic Advantage or Faxon on sale for around 130 if you look hard enough so I'd rather not gamble with the $75 barrel.

But I have only seen this for 223. With Blackout I have only seen good results from premium barrels. It seems to be a picky round. I've seen posts where people gave up and bought a Noveske barrel.

Offline Jingles

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2020, 06:44:23 AM »
Again thank you all for the suggestions on how to improve the accuracy of a factory AR.

However maybe it's because I'm 70+ but I remember a time when manufacturers were proud of their product and  made the best possible product without having to do a lot of after market changes to get an something that was acceptable. If their product was substandard they worked on the product until it was better before putting it on the market. Granted maybe  1 hole groups is expecting to much especially with the variables of the shooters but when using a vice for a rest, bullets that are handloaded to get consistency in powder charges, bullet seating depth and the other factors that pertain to consistency, regardless of the Rifle Manufacturer the results I am getting are what I call substandard and unacceptable for the price I paid, IMO there should be no reason that a shooter/ purchaser should not expect  to be able to shoot quarter size groups out of the box.
Apparently people  have come to expect what I call "SUBSTANDARD" products as the norm be it rifles, vehicles or any product when laying out hard earned cash. I know the business my wife and I had if it wasn't the best possible or had any flaws regardless of how minute we didn't let it go out the door. I believe that is called having  pride in your product and apparently producers don't have that anymore they are more worried about just turning out a product.
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Offline hunter399

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2020, 06:45:42 AM »
I seen the pics of your reloading books I guess you are spot on with powder charge.You ever just tried a plain old soft point bullet there better for hunting anyway.
Everybody says barrel ,have you tryed to clean that sucker I mean run your bore brush with solvent like 20 times through it.Ive I've seen accuracy improve greatly in some cheap as barrel with a good clean. Especially if you have ever shot factory ammo some of that stuff is so dirty.
But ya that's my recommendation different
Powder charge
Bullets
Good barrel clean
See what happens I think you have to figure what she likes.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline Jingles

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2020, 06:55:39 AM »
I seen the pics of your reloading books I guess you are spot on with powder charge.You ever just tried a plain old soft point bullet there better for hunting anyway.
Everybody says barrel ,have you tryed to clean that sucker I mean run your bore brush with solvent like 20 times through it.Ive I've seen accuracy improve greatly in some cheap as barrel with a good clean. Especially if you have ever shot factory ammo some of that stuff is so dirty.
But ya that's my recommendation different
Powder charge
Bullets
Good barrel clean
See what happens I think you have to figure what she likes.

No not 20 times I went all the way back to "BOOT CAMP" and ran bore brush 50 strokes in and 50 strokes out, with new brush, swabbed and brushed 50 more. As afar as soft  point yes have tried 55 grain Spitzter boat tails (SBT), 65 grain SBT with numerous different loads, and different primers CCI 400,  and Fed 205's
HMC/USN/RET
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Offline 300rum

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2020, 07:08:40 AM »
Don't worry about all the other suggestions on here, buy some Federal GMM and let us know what it does.  It will tell you what your rifle will do, eliminating your reloads as a factor.  If GMM doesn't shoot there is something else going on.  If GMM shoots, its your reloads, it's probably your reloads. 

Offline hunter399

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Re: AR Accuracy
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2020, 07:09:28 AM »
I seen the pics of your reloading books I guess you are spot on with powder charge.You ever just tried a plain old soft point bullet there better for hunting anyway.
Everybody says barrel ,have you tryed to clean that sucker I mean run your bore brush with solvent like 20 times through it.Ive I've seen accuracy improve greatly in some cheap as barrel with a good clean. Especially if you have ever shot factory ammo some of that stuff is so dirty.
But ya that's my recommendation different
Powder charge
Bullets
Good barrel clean
See what happens I think you have to figure what she likes.

No not 20 times I went all the way back to "BOOT CAMP" and ran bore brush 50 strokes in and 50 strokes out, with new brush, swabbed and brushed 50 more. As afar as soft  point yes have tried 55 grain Spitzter boat tails (SBT), 65 grain SBT with numerous different loads, and different primers CCI 400,  and Fed 205's
Wow
I'm out ideas sorry.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

 


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