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Author Topic: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects  (Read 3312 times)

Offline Bango skank

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2020, 09:02:35 PM »
Besides, if you go to an every other year only for mule deer, thats just going to add a whole mess of pressure to whitetails, while doing squat to address the mule deer problem.  No thanks.

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2020, 09:29:21 PM »


IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.


I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.

About 28k deer taken by licensed hunters last year.  3000 (minimum) adult lions in the state taking 60 (conservatively) deer per year each is 180k deer killed by lions.  So how are hunters at the top of the list?  Our lion situation is not sustainable.

Estimated 30k bears in wa is what ive read.  If each killed only one fawn per year, then bear depredation is equivalent to licensed hunters.

Now add in wolves and coyotes.  We have a problem.

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Offline highcountry_hunter

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2020, 09:42:28 PM »
So what I took from it is you need about 15 days or more to make a kill in a season only lasting 11 days.......

What i took from it was the whitetail harvest here was one for the books in 2015.  Wonder why that is?  Could there have possibly been something going on the previous, oh, maybe 4 years, in the 2 most hunted units that made for such excellent hunter success?  :rolleyes:
You couldn’t be talking about the 4pt minimum restrictions that worked wonders but for an unknown reason, with no science behind it, were removed?

Offline NOCK NOCK

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2020, 05:45:27 AM »


IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.


I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.


For all of you guys who feel you are the problem, go ahead and voluntarily cut back your participation and allow that to be an individual decision.  Dont give stuff away for others that you know not what their impact is or isnt.  I know many guys who get multi-season and still VOLUNTARILY eat their tag, so do what you think is best for you and leave others alone.


Pot meet Kettle. :yeah:

Many folks also are successful with their multis......I have been one of them several times.   After 40+ years of mule deer hunting under my belt, and the ever quickly decreasing muley population, it is time to do something to help them out before its too late and we DRASTICALLY lose opportunity. Baiting/Hound hunting/Native harvest/Wolves.........Good luck changing any of that, aint gonna happen.



"For all of you guys who feel you are the problem, go ahead and voluntarily cut back your participation and allow that to be an individual decision.  Don't give stuff away for others that you know not what their impact is or isnt.  I know many guys who get multi-season and still VOLUNTARILY eat their tag, so do what you think is best for you and leave others alone."

 :yeah:

Couldn't have said it better. I believe any sportsman who is a proponent of permit only Mule Deer hunting, or every other year hunting, or cutting any kind of opportunity for other user groups should think long and hard about what they are supporting. You flat out will not get those opportunities back once they are gone. Nothing stopping anyone from practicing self-restraint where they see fit, but we should not be limiting opportunities for any of us where it is not absolutely necessary.

Anyone arguing that hunters are the problem in this state is 100% wrong. We are the #1 advocate for these deer.


Legal harvest, Poaching, Native harvest, doe permits, 2nd deer, Wounded and not counted. Hunters Pressuring deer during breeding and while shed hunting. Multi hunters doing their thing for 3+ months straight........Hunters are involved in a lot of killing of critters.
To think that we as hunters are not associated with deer number issues in this state is extremely naďve.
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Offline NOCK NOCK

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2020, 05:57:29 AM »
Besides, if you go to an every other year only for mule deer, thats just going to add a whole mess of pressure to whitetails, while doing squat to address the mule deer problem.  No thanks.

I am only for a very sound management plan...that protects all species. If the mules are all killed, whites/blacks will be next. That triangle works in all 3 directions.

How can not killing X amount of deer in one year NOT help the animals?
 
We need to do something, anything before its too late and we all see drastic loss of opportunity across all user groups/species.

PS and yes I agree that predators are a HUGE issue (see my above post/cat kills)
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Offline Bango skank

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2020, 06:38:05 AM »
Taking away hunting opportunity with an every other year thing or the like will do nothing to address many of the human causes you list like poaching, tribal harvest, shed hunters on winter range etc.  Legal hunting is a drop in the bucket of the total mortality.  I dont think taking away half the legal hunting harvest will help enough when the deer have so many bigger problems working against them.  But i do think that 8500 multi season permits is crazy.  Its a money grab, plain and simple.  And antlerless harvest in areas with poor herd numbers is just plain stupid.  Id also be on board with picking a species for your tag.  But saying you could only hunt mule deer every other year, thats not good.  Its setting a precedent.  It would be a foot in the door for losing basically all otc deer and elk hunting.  It wouldnt save the mule deer either, as the long tails dont follow rules.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2020, 06:51:42 AM »
YES, The problem is the cumulative impact of predation from all sources, including humans!  :twocents:

But here's the bigger problem, predators that are not managed by hunting will multiply to the point that the available prey base will support. Even if humans were to end all hunting seasons predators would likely increase to the point that the prey base will support, when the prey base drops low enough then predator numbers will decline due to a lack of food, starvation of adult predators, and lack of successful recruitment of young predators. But if prey numbers increase then predator numbers are going to increase. So even if all hunting was ended, the unregulated predator numbers will result in the same low numbers of prey that can survive. You can all give up your hunting you want, but the end result will not amount to a great increase in ungulate numbers, its just that simple!  :twocents:
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Offline BigGoonTuna

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2020, 08:15:07 AM »
This thread is starting to remind me of what I see a lot in the salmon/steelhead fishing community, a bunch of recreational guys pointing fingers at each other when sport take is a drop in the bucket compared to unchecked predation, habitat degradation and poorly managed commercial (including tribal) take.

Really starting to think this is just a Washington management problem. Every state has their problems, WDFW just seems to amplify everything.
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Offline buckfvr

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2020, 08:47:57 AM »
The idea is to reduce harvest without reducing opportunity to hunt.....TO HUNT.  No doe harvest and 4pt apr, done.  This worked before in the n.e. but wdfw denies it while keeping a 3pt apr in place in the s.e.  The message is clear, they donnt know what to do except increase fees.

Offline Buckhunter24

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2020, 09:15:34 AM »
I think with the mule deer in North central wa habitat loss among other factors plays a big role in weak popukations. In northeast Washington theres so much great habitat and cover, the only real argument is which of the predators is doing the most damage, cougars imo as well. There's not a day I'm in the woods I don't see large amounts of bear sign, or if there's mud or snow the amount of cat and wolf tracks is depressing. Its easy to drive past the  ag fields and think the populations strong but there's lots of deer there because thats the only place to get some safety.

Offline highcountry_hunter

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2020, 02:00:22 PM »
YES, The problem is the cumulative impact of predation from all sources, including humans!  :twocents:

But here's the bigger problem, predators that are not managed by hunting will multiply to the point that the available prey base will support. Even if humans were to end all hunting seasons predators would likely increase to the point that the prey base will support, when the prey base drops low enough then predator numbers will decline due to a lack of food, starvation of adult predators, and lack of successful recruitment of young predators. But if prey numbers increase then predator numbers are going to increase. So even if all hunting was ended, the unregulated predator numbers will result in the same low numbers of prey that can survive. You can all give up your hunting you want, but the end result will not amount to a great increase in ungulate numbers, its just that simple!  :twocents:

 :yeah:

This is why I stated a page or so ago the only way I would support any reductions in mule deer seasons(phools every other year idea specifically) or any other hunter take away would need to involve compromises, wdfw would need to come up with some sort of plan to aggressively lower predator numbers, at least by half on bear and cats and aggressively take on the coyote issue by possibly bringing back some sort of bounty or incentive system. If compromises, or a fair give and take concerning the over population of predators are not addressed, then we have a different story.

Agreed. I agree that if hunters give in to one of the above mentioned ideas (every other year, drawings...) full rights will never be restored. WDFW, who only has a job because of sportsmen, would have to be willing to help with the problem opposed to hunters being the only ones making sacrifices.

Offline RileyH

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2020, 11:29:35 AM »
After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   :twocents:

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

This is interesting to me as I've been over to our "spot" in Okanogan more times this spring/summer than ever before, and I've seen way more doe and fawn than any other time in memory. Even commented to my father that the observable Muley fawn survival rate seems really high this year. However, I also saw A LOT of black bear, coyote, and our neighbors say the wolves have decimated the whitetail down low although I haven not seen one yet.

One of the big problems in Okanogan is the upper-crust of the region (no secret who they are) close off a lot of land access, put in a lot of work to keep the animals on private, and generally seem to be wanton poachers and flaunt the law every season with no reprimand.

Offline ibuyre

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Re: NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2020, 01:07:05 PM »
It's not just a east side problem. It's state wide. So far this season, scouting and multi season elk, ML deer hunting. I have been in the field in 4 west side units for about 20 days total, in the field at sunrise, hiking and glassing all day and looking for sign. Other than getting on elk. I have seen far more bear and cat sign than deer. I have seen (couldn't get a shot) several coyotes and tons of sign. Even had a Game warden I ran into ask me if I had seen anything? I said just some sign. There reply was, this year they are finding more Bear sign than anything else. And same hear. The predators have ran a muck. Last year elk hunting (west side) I found more cougar kills than live elk.

   Deer hunting a area when I was seeing 10-20 deer a day last year. This year, I found sneak trails where people have been driving around the gates to get into the area. In 2 days in there the most I saw was 2 doe's. Saw cat sign, and saw a cats face for just a second, it was looking at me and gone in a flash. This year in the woods is making me a little sick.... so many predators and people breaking the rules (driving in closed areas).  Who knows if they where doing that day or night (I should go back and put up some game cams), I have ran into evidence (and turned it in) of people driving and spotlighting in closed rd areas. Poachers are real.

I think predators are the top of the list, and there's currently no way to control them in this state, because rules.... Feel good rules that cause animals to get eaten alive, and some to go extinct Forest Caribou. We need to try and educate people, talk to people, and get some laws changed. Or watch our animals mostly die off.

 


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