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Author Topic: Eltopia bull  (Read 3659 times)

Offline B4noon

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2020, 09:48:00 AM »
It is always hard to say what is the truth anymore without both sides and a healthy amount of skepticism and common sense to make a judgement. Looking at one side of the story, we can ascribe all sorts of ethical and moral deficiencies to the person who killed the bull.  If the story and assumption(?) that he read the Facebook post and decided to kill the bull for bragging rights (or whatever unethical/perverse reason) is true, the guy is a turd sack that gives hunters a black eye in the view of people reading the story. Wasnít hunting by my definition and is exactly what gives ethical fair chase hunting a bad name you can make the argument that he legally filled his tag but I canít define it as hunting legal or not I donít personally agree with the decision or method chosen to fill his tag and certainly wonít define it as hunting as he did not hunt

There are a lot of assumptions to the article and bad feelings weighed against the guy.

Another plausible scenario is that a guy gets a call about a grievously injured elk  and he goes out to humanely End the suffering, harvest, and salvage whatever possible. From the posts I have read Here, all are basically throwing the guy and daughter (?) under the bus as completely amoral trophy hunters more concerned with killing a set of horns than an actual hunt with no prof other than the assumptions in the article.

Years ago I had a class called Crucial Conversations  that delved into the psychology of different biases that lead to misunderstanding and  assumption of bad intentions by people with no proof support the feelings. Great class that more people should take, it really shows how misunderstandings can build a narrative on nothing more than a few misconstrued facts or actions.

Just my 0.02
Another well said post and agreed with.
To the people who think he was wrong what is the time span from when the elk was helped out would it be ok to hunt him again?
If there was time left in the season.
1 day ? 2 days? 1 week? Or is this bull off limits forever in your mind?
Sounds like alot of people are jumping on another Hunter who legally took an animal because he seen it on Facebook and had access to the property without knowing all the details.
Hunters against hunters we really are our worst enemy

Offline Buckhunter24

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2020, 10:07:43 AM »
How the public views this "hunt" hurts hunters far more than other hunters calling it out does. I know a lot of farmers and ranchers, I would trust their judgment that the animal was worn out and needed to recover. If they thought it needed to be killed they likely would have called wdfw.  :twocents:

Offline Sandberm

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2020, 10:10:58 AM »
And now we have the argument that we cannot criticize our own, which I NEVER agree with.

To think that it is best to never criticize our own is ridiculous. All groups debate their actions amongst themselves. It doesnt show weakness but rather strength in caring about the direction of our particular group and its actions going forward.

Offline salt n sage90

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2020, 10:14:37 AM »
There is of course the prospect that this story is not entirely accurate or including all necessary details for this audience to come up with a fair judgement. This fellow could have acted at the request of the landowner to humanely dispatch the animal with no ill will. I hope this is the case. I think some of us see beautiful antlers and think "greedy SOB" but that's our problem.

"Needing the meat" isn't really a story I am gonna buy at this point, not when there are other ways to get food into your fancy truck.

As for how long to leave the elk to recover? Overnight at least or a day. Most of us have seen instances where these animals show their grit and will to survive long after a soft human would quit. Whether it running with a leg blown off, exhausted from wolves, hooves rotted off, etc. I think giving an animal the chance to get its breath and get to its feet isn't out of the question. Merely saying that it was dumb enough to fall in a ditch so it prolly wont make it long in the wild is harsh, if we used that same logic with people housing prices would be lower.

Personally if I saw an animal of that caliber on facebook (of which I do not partake) that needed to be dispatched I don't think I would get involved. Too high profile, call a LEO or have the landowner do it.
That being said using ones tag to put an animal out of its misery is a noble act.
"Nothing sinks faster than a downrigger ball"

Offline B4noon

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2020, 10:23:38 AM »
Call it what it is dont define it as hunting because it wasnít I suppose some could make the arguments that he legally filled his tag but make no mistake he did not hunt. Although we take an animals life most hunters have a high regard and respect for the animals we hunt the ethical part of fair chase and respect for the game and landscape they inhabit is what draws the line between hunting and just killing 2 very different things in my book unfortunately although he was not hunting and was simply ďlegally filling a tagĒ it will reflect poorly on the rest of us just because something is technically legal doesnít always make it right

Offline BULLBLASTER

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2020, 10:27:21 AM »
And now we have the argument that we cannot criticize our own, which I NEVER agree with.

To think that it is best to never criticize our own is ridiculous. All groups debate their actions amongst themselves. It doesnt show weakness but rather strength in caring about the direction of our particular group and its actions going forward.
:yeah: Ive tried to type the same idea a couple times but couldnt articulate well.

Offline b0bbyg

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2020, 10:44:12 AM »
I have followed this thread and think I read all of the comments, what I might have missed is do we actually know what happened?  ( Someone posting has first hand knowledge )
Or, are we making all our judgements of folks based on personal opinions about right and wrong based on hypotheticals. 

Discussion is good, helps us all learn.  I just want to understand the context a little better.


Offline Sandberm

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2020, 01:32:26 PM »
I live "in the area", so to speak, of where this happened and know the woman who made the facebook post that is linked in the original post as well as her husband. I do not know them well enough that I can just call them up and start peppering them with questions. Our relationship is that of  a casual customer/business owner type. But I have known them for long enough to know they are of a fine upstanding type. I would be more then happy to have them as neighbors or have them watch my kids.

I can reasonably guess where this happened as she and her husband own a little bit of land that they live on that borders an irrigation ditch, as well as the other participants in the rescue, are sons of farmers, or they themselves farm nearby.

I do not know the Irrigation district employee who shot the elk and cannot vouch for his character or lack thereof.

Water to irrigate the farms around here is delivered via a series of ditches and reservoirs that stretch from Grand Coulee Dam south to just North of Pasco . These ditches are either constructed of dirt, rock or in the case of where this happened apparently concrete. Google things like "Elk or Moose trapped in ditch in Pasco or Eltopia" etc, and you will see that this is an almost yearly occurrence that an animal gets trapped in one of these ditches lately. Outcomes are mixed. I've had two dogs drown in these ditches when they cannot climb back out. :'(

Roads run along these ditches. Irrigation district employees drive on these roads to deliver water to farmers who order it the day before. Farmers also use these roads to access fields/homes etc. The ditch and the road are BLM run. Thus in the pictures of the guy butchering the Elk, the animal is laying in this BLM road. This road is NOT for the publics use, but rather for the farmers who own or farm the farms that border it. However, bird/coyote hunters will drive these roads hunting. Sometimes the farmer cares and will run them off, other times they do not care. Quite often the hunters think they have a right to drive these roads to hunt because its BLM, maybe they do, but as soon as they take fives steps off the road they are on the farmers land.

From what I gather from the FB post, the rescuers called the Irrigation district to let them know of the elk stuck in the ditch. The elk can die in the ditch, get washed down and stuck in a pipe or block a grate. Thus the ditch might overflow and wash out the banks. So not only is it a case of feeling bad for the animal, but there is also the very real chance that there could be a failure in the ditch.

In the mean time , as farmers do, instead of waiting for someone else to do the job, and having equipment to perhaps get the job done, they get the elk out. Per the fb post, a district employee or employees show up after the rescue has been completed, says good job guys and thankyou for getting the elk out. All is good, the rescuers bring some hay and grain for the elk and plan how they will help the elk out overnight. Meanwhile, it sounds like if you read Maryjos fb post, the guy(s) who went to the rescue site who work for the irrigation district goes home, tells his wife or kids about the neat rescue, the people involved and where it happened. Then, the relative of the district employee, thinking this is a neat story, shares it on FB. "Evil Jim"  :chuckle:  who works for the irrigation district but is off work sees the post, loads his kid in his pickup, drives to the elk and shoots it from "4 feet away" on the last day of the season in his gym shorts, Saturday September 19.

What I do not know:
-Was any of the rescuers actually there when the elk got shot or did they show back up after it had been killed? It sounds like from the FB post that they were there to witness the kill as they report that the elk stood and was shot from a distance of 4'.
-Did the district relatives fb post go into any description of the circumstances of the elk ending up where it was? This is a moot point if the rescuers were there when he shot it as they would have told "jim" of the rescue and there intent to help the elk out overnight from coyotes.
-Did the district worker who shot the elk cross private land on a farmers road to access the elk or did he turn off the county road and wind his way to the elk on the BLM road?
-If the district employee who shot the elk was off work and used the BLM road, is he trespassing because he did not use the road in his work duties but rather as a private citizen like you and I

Like any court case that I have been a juror on, the lawyers will talk of "reasonable assumption".

If I find out more I will post.



Offline hunter399

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2020, 02:08:14 PM »
If that elk didn't get up and move within 24 hours chances are slim at best ,Hunter probably did it a favor by putting it down. :dunno: :dunno:
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

Offline b0bbyg

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2020, 05:10:42 PM »
Sandberm   Thanks for the details as they are known, there will be opinions both ways I am sure.  From the outside looking in there are many ways I think this can shed a poor light, but also there are many legal things people don't like that shed a bad light when written up by angry FB users.

Since I was not there and don't know the area or players I'll just say I would have passed just to not be under that spotlight. If it was not legal I believe it is public enough the local LEO may get involved.

Offline dilleytech

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Re: Eltopia bull
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2020, 11:27:15 AM »
I wonder if this guy would have been driving along and came across a bull bedded that let him sneak up to it and shoot it and the guy had no idea it was wounded. Would people have the same negative opinions? Certainly this isnít much of a ďhuntĒ but how many guys happily sign up to go shoot a cow in a hay field? I donít see much Of a difference.

I feel bad for the people who put in the effort to get the bull out just to have someone else get all the benefits.But I think itís safe to assume If your going to assume any thing At all that those people who killed it are bragging more about the 250# of awesome meat then some amazing elk hunt they had.

 


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