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Author Topic: load development what next  (Read 757 times)

Offline Mtnwalker

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load development what next
« on: April 21, 2021, 10:59:44 AM »
Always looking to evolve the process, been doing some tinkering on a new load and curious for conversation sake what other's next step(s) would be. Basic outline of where I'm at is this:

162 Eld M, 7 Rem mag, Virgin ADG brass, CCI 250's. Switched things up a bit and did seating depth first this time. Started out with a modest load of 60.0gr H4831SC and ran from .10 to .100 off. Surprisingly in 2 rounds of testing it ended up liking the long jump the best, and did about .3 at .100 off the lands, which works out well because then I can ditch the aftermarket bottom metal and run the factory length mag setup (it's a Tikka  :rolleyes:)

My first mistake is I was in a hurry during my last range trip and didn't bring the chrono, so I'm not sure where I'm at for velocity or SD, but I know it's too low, guessing around 2750. So, with very limited range time over the next couple months and components still in short supply, what would you guys who really know your shiz do next? Ladder test for a velocity node? Straight to 3 shot groups in .2 or .3 increments? I haven't had great luck running ladder tests with much consistency in the past, whether over the chrono or at distance, but I haven't spent a ton of time on them either.

Also have RL23 to try as well once I see what the numbers are looking like, but I don't figure I'll get anything really fine tuned until round 2 on the brass.


Offline TooTallMike

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2021, 11:29:15 AM »
I would do a low density ladder test.

10 rds at +.2gr increments each from where you are currently at

In my experience I did not notice a change in velocity from virgin brass to 1x fired brass.

You'll be able to identify a velocity node and then you can fine tune your seating depth again from there but it looks like you're doing alright with what you've got now.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2021, 11:30:53 AM »
Scrap the velocity node thing. As seating depth changes so will that flat spot. Do a simple velocity ladder to find pressure, back it off a grain or so from first signs of pressure and then do a seating depth test from there. Don't be afraid to jump a bullet. The internet will have you believing that a bullet has to be close or touching the lands to be accurate but its just not true as you have seen with your original testing.
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Offline BULLBLASTER

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2021, 11:40:12 AM »
Scrap the velocity node thing. As seating depth changes so will that flat spot. Do a simple velocity ladder to find pressure, back it off a grain or so from first signs of pressure and then do a seating depth test from there. Don't be afraid to jump a bullet. The internet will have you believing that a bullet has to be close or touching the lands to be accurate but its just not true as you have seen with your original testing.
:yeah: id also reccomend doing it all on once fired brass. Virgin brass can hide pressure that will wreck brass in subsequent firings. I like to go up to either pressure signs or whatever velocity i am after. If looking for pressure i like to drop 75 ish fps from pressure indicators and work seating depth. A grain or so is likely close depending on the chambering.

Ill add that if you want to use the factory bottom metal just start with that and work in the length it allows.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2021, 11:42:39 AM »
As for virgin vs fired brass i will typically concur with Mike. As long as you are properly sizing your brass the only real change will be a tighter es between virgin and fired.
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Offline BULLBLASTER

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 11:43:44 AM »
As for virgin vs fired brass i will typically concur with Mike. As long as you are properly sizing your brass the only real change will be a tighter es between virgin and fired.
I agree once you have a quality load established.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2021, 11:45:01 AM »
Very good points Bullblaster. A basic load and some trigger time works two fold on a new rifle as well. Forms your brass and speeds up your barrel then you are doing load development at optimal performance.
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Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2021, 11:54:35 AM »
Once you get that brass all shot bring it over and we'll run it through the annealer.
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Offline Mtnwalker

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2021, 12:16:11 PM »
Scrap the velocity node thing. As seating depth changes so will that flat spot. Do a simple velocity ladder to find pressure, back it off a grain or so from first signs of pressure and then do a seating depth test from there. Don't be afraid to jump a bullet. The internet will have you believing that a bullet has to be close or touching the lands to be accurate but its just not true as you have seen with your original testing.

So basically, do what I usually do. How boring  :chuckle: I did the seating first for a couple reasons. Mostly just to experiment while getting the first firing on the brass, but also I've talked to a few guys who say it helps get their long range ladders cleaned up a bit if the seating is close to begin with. Looks like next step will be a charge ladder, I also picked up some redding incremented shell holders to mess with for FL sizing and shoulder bump so we'll see how those do

Offline Magnum_Willys

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2021, 01:01:44 PM »
I like to load faster rather than slower so I find fast zone like Karl said then tweak seating.   Otherwise I may find a great shooting load but won't be happy because there may be a faster node out there I haven't reached yet.  Some of us struggle to accept very accurate slow loads as good enough even when just paper punching - go figure ?

Offline Crunchy

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2021, 01:05:13 PM »
I think I did pretty much what you did with my 7mag.  Seating depth test first, but then ran a ladder over the chronograph.  I then tweaked some more with seating depth at the chronograph number that looked flat, and confirmed what I was looking for over the chronograph again. Might have been a waste but I got good trigger time.

Next trip is to verify some drop data, and maybe order a new CDS dial based on my new load.  For those smart guys with verifying drop data.  I have a 200 yard zero.  Do I throw a target up at 300, 400, and 500 and shoot for 200.  Im thinking the 500 yard target will have to be 5 feet tall??  Would that drop give me actual verified BC for the bullet and how do I figure that out from the drop.  Sorry for the mini hijack.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2021, 01:21:17 PM »
I like to load faster rather than slower so I find fast zone like Karl said then tweak seating.   Otherwise I may find a great shooting load but won't be happy because there may be a faster node out there I haven't reached yet.  Some of us struggle to accept very accurate slow loads as good enough even when just paper punching - go figure ?
I just don't see a reason to settle for "slow". If I can't operate at peak performance I'm gonna change powders until I find the one that offers me the most performance. Sometimes its the bullet as well. 190 ABLR come to mind. I tried that thing with every possible combination in my first wsm barrel (a barrel that would shoot anything in the .3's) and the only accuracy I could find was at 2,750. I could do that with a 30-06  :chuckle: switched to the 185 berger and shot them at a comfortable 3100.

Only time I could see accepting "slow" with a load would be times like this where component availability is a real issue. A guy couldn't switch powders even if he wanted to.
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Offline Mtnwalker

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2021, 01:25:45 PM »
I like to load faster rather than slower so I find fast zone like Karl said then tweak seating.   Otherwise I may find a great shooting load but won't be happy because there may be a faster node out there I haven't reached yet.  Some of us struggle to accept very accurate slow loads as good enough even when just paper punching - go figure ?
I just don't see a reason to settle for "slow". If I can't operate at peak performance I'm gonna change powders until I find the one that offers me the most performance. Sometimes its the bullet as well. 190 ABLR come to mind. I tried that thing with every possible combination in my first wsm barrel (a barrel that would shoot anything in the .3's) and the only accuracy I could find was at 2,750. I could do that with a 30-06  :chuckle: switched to the 185 berger and shot them at a comfortable 3100.

Only time I could see accepting "slow" with a load would be times like this where component availability is a real issue. A guy couldn't switch powders even if he wanted to.

What if your gun is already jumpy cause you don't have a brake and you don't want any more recoil?  :chuckle: :chuckle: I don't need to wring every ounce out of this load but I definitely need about 200 fps more than it's doing right now

Offline hogslayer

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2021, 01:29:44 PM »
I had a 7 Rem mag.  The upper node with those 162-168 grain bullets was 2950 ish.   Should be able to reach that pretty easy.  RL 23 and H4831SC are identical in charge weights so that wouldn't be hard to switch over.  2750 would be way to slow.   With  a belted mag, your second firing will be different.  Non belted i usually don't see any issue if chamber is head spaced correctly.  Belted mags head space off the belt on first firing which can move the shoulder .020 forward on first firing.

Offline Karl Blanchard

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Re: load development what next
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2021, 01:30:33 PM »
Yeah magnum tikka's are kinda awful to shoot  :chuckle: brake or swap out the stock. Or trade it off for a 7/08.






Or don't redline your load that way it won't karate chop you in the shoulder every trigger pull  :chuckle:
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