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Author Topic: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause  (Read 25910 times)

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2021, 11:21:33 AM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2021, 11:32:17 AM »
I think that's the problem, nobody knows.  Does the tribe even know?

It could be that overharvest is 1% of the problem.  It could be 99% too.  If there is a modest overharvest, the numbers sometimes don't go down linearly, they crash at some point.  I can't remember the biological term, but there is a minimum number you need to maintain a population and once you go just a bit below that it crashes.

If elk were cute, there would be millions available to study and research.  Unfortunately that's the world we live in.

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2021, 11:37:57 AM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
4-O is taking a beating again this year.  We saw 3 Idaho rigs going up and one coming down.  Iím about an hour while we were sitting at camp a few weeks ago.  The one coming down pulled in with a six point and not much meat.  He was wearing shorts and a t shirt.  And we talked to one of the Odems that lives there.  Nighttime/daytime it doesnít matter.  Predators hammering the young ones and tribal nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2021, 12:21:30 PM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
4-O is taking a beating again this year.  We saw 3 Idaho rigs going up and one coming down.  Iím about an hour while we were sitting at camp a few weeks ago.  The one coming down pulled in with a six point and not much meat.  He was wearing shorts and a t shirt.  And we talked to one of the Odems that lives there.  Nighttime/daytime it doesnít matter.  Predators hammering the young ones and tribal nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state.

I understand you saw a 6x6 elk being driven out by a guy in shorts and talked to another guy about 24-hour hunting practices. This is hardly empirical evidence that the harvest practices of the tribes have changed in recent years, causing a huge decrease in elk mortality in that area. You go on to say that "...tribal(s) nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state." This is a broad swipe of the brush, as there are many factors contributing to ungulate population declines in different parts of our state, many of them due to mismanagement of resources by non-tribal entities, like state and/or federal agencies.  In almost all of those areas, tribal harvest and the characteristics of that harvest are not a new phenomena. Although I'm open to evidence that shows tribal harvest as a mitigating factor in the decline of ungulate populations, I have seen little so far. To the contrary, many of the tribes in our state are conservation-minded and do their best to maintain healthy ungulate populations, through habitat improvement and predator control. If we are to find solutions to a very clear problem in the Blues (and I see it's a big problem), we'd better start with data and facts, instead of conjecture, or we're liable to miss the actual causal factors and not have the desired effect of stemming the trend. My  :twocents:
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2021, 12:52:44 PM »
Is WDFW ever going to attempt to try and get a remotely accurate accurate number of mountain lions in this state? Maybe it's different management philosophies, but ODFW seemed to always try and keep an eye on the cat population even though they know there's nothing they can do about it, where WDFW seems to have shrugged its shoulders at monitoring that population because they know there's nothing they can do about it. I know bears are hard on calves in the spring, but the lions are hard on them till elk are fully grown.

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2021, 01:08:56 PM »
Is WDFW ever going to attempt to try and get a remotely accurate accurate number of mountain lions in this state? Maybe it's different management philosophies, but ODFW seemed to always try and keep an eye on the cat population even though they know there's nothing they can do about it, where WDFW seems to have shrugged its shoulders at monitoring that population because they know there's nothing they can do about it. I know bears are hard on calves in the spring, but the lions are hard on them till elk are fully grown.

As I stated before, we should have open season on cats. The limits placed on harvest numbers and dates are arbitrary and have little coincidence with actual predator numbers and impact. Without hounding, cougar numbers will always be higher than is good for healthy ungulate populations. Incidental kills are statistically rare.
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2021, 03:05:34 PM »
Is WDFW ever going to attempt to try and get a remotely accurate accurate number of mountain lions in this state? Maybe it's different management philosophies, but ODFW seemed to always try and keep an eye on the cat population even though they know there's nothing they can do about it, where WDFW seems to have shrugged its shoulders at monitoring that population because they know there's nothing they can do about it. I know bears are hard on calves in the spring, but the lions are hard on them till elk are fully grown.

As I stated before, we should have open season on cats. The limits placed on harvest numbers and dates are arbitrary and have little coincidence with actual predator numbers and impact. Without hounding, cougar numbers will always be higher than is good for healthy ungulate populations. Incidental kills are statistically rare.
The question wasn't directed specifically at you, just if anyone in the group knew if WDFW has bother to do a study on the population. The data out of Oregon does confirm your views though. Without hounds the population isn't manageable. Part of the ODFW "management plan" is that they use hounds to reduce mountain lion populations in units with critically low deer numbers. Cheap tags and a season that is essentially an overlap with every big game hunting season they have has done nothing to plateau the numbers. Originally the management plan had a goal of maintaining population at, or slightly above, what it was before the hound band (1,200-1,500 lions in 94' if I remember correctly). The last study/estimate they did a few years ago had the population at 3x-4x that. The highest densities there have always been in Union, Baker, Wallowa, and Umatilla counties...   

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2021, 03:12:50 PM »
Is WDFW ever going to attempt to try and get a remotely accurate accurate number of mountain lions in this state? Maybe it's different management philosophies, but ODFW seemed to always try and keep an eye on the cat population even though they know there's nothing they can do about it, where WDFW seems to have shrugged its shoulders at monitoring that population because they know there's nothing they can do about it. I know bears are hard on calves in the spring, but the lions are hard on them till elk are fully grown.

As I stated before, we should have open season on cats. The limits placed on harvest numbers and dates are arbitrary and have little coincidence with actual predator numbers and impact. Without hounding, cougar numbers will always be higher than is good for healthy ungulate populations. Incidental kills are statistically rare.
The question wasn't directed specifically at you, just if anyone in the group knew if WDFW has bother to do a study on the population. The data out of Oregon does confirm your views though. Without hounds the population isn't manageable. Part of the ODFW "management plan" is that they use hounds to reduce mountain lion populations in units with critically low deer numbers. Cheap tags and a season that is essentially an overlap with every big game hunting season they have has done nothing to plateau the numbers. Originally the management plan had a goal of maintaining population at, or slightly above, what it was before the hound band (1,200-1,500 lions in 94' if I remember correctly). The last study/estimate they did a few years ago had the population at 3x-4x that. The highest densities there have always been in Union, Baker, Wallowa, and Umatilla counties...

1. How many cougars live in Washington?
Cougars are solitary, and are difficult to track and study. However,
WDFW has funded and partnered with local universities on 7 study
areas over 15 years in Washington. Based on this research WDFW
estimates the independent-aged (>18 months) cougar population size
is 1,900 to 2,100 animals.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-10/cougar_brochure.pdf

I don't believe there's been any comprehensive population study done in at least a decade.

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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2021, 03:15:44 PM »
Then this:

"How many cougars are in WA state?
There are an estimated 3,500 to 4,000 cougars in Washington state and they are living close to people. ďMy own research showed that the average cougar in Western Washington spends about 16-percent of its time in areas with residential development,Ē said WDFW carnivore research scientist "Dr.Feb 18, 2021

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/no-cougar-discovery-park-wdfw-says-big-cats-are-closer-than-you-might-think/XAD7ZYFOONGI7PRQKFQAAFRNHM/
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2021, 03:47:19 PM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2021, 04:23:13 PM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
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The antlers were valuable before. Look, until we're prepared to actually seek a reason for the decline outside of our own suspicions or preconceived notions, we risk overlooking or ignoring the actual cause(s) for the decline. Are we looking for the truth or for confirmation of our own biases? Scientific study can always confirm the results that we seek if we want it to.
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2021, 06:23:16 PM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
4-O is taking a beating again this year.  We saw 3 Idaho rigs going up and one coming down.  Iím about an hour while we were sitting at camp a few weeks ago.  The one coming down pulled in with a six point and not much meat.  He was wearing shorts and a t shirt.  And we talked to one of the Odems that lives there.  Nighttime/daytime it doesnít matter.  Predators hammering the young ones and tribal nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state.

I understand you saw a 6x6 elk being driven out by a guy in shorts and talked to another guy about 24-hour hunting practices. This is hardly empirical evidence that the harvest practices of the tribes have changed in recent years, causing a huge decrease in elk mortality in that area. You go on to say that "...tribal(s) nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state." This is a broad swipe of the brush, as there are many factors contributing to ungulate population declines in different parts of our state, many of them due to mismanagement of resources by non-tribal entities, like state and/or federal agencies.  In almost all of those areas, tribal harvest and the characteristics of that harvest are not a new phenomena. Although I'm open to evidence that shows tribal harvest as a mitigating factor in the decline of ungulate populations, I have seen little so far. To the contrary, many of the tribes in our state are conservation-minded and do their best to maintain healthy ungulate populations, through habitat improvement and predator control. If we are to find solutions to a very clear problem in the Blues (and I see it's a big problem), we'd better start with data and facts, instead of conjecture, or we're liable to miss the actual causal factors and not have the desired effect of stemming the trend. My  :twocents:
you are very wrong that the Nez do anything for conservation in Washington, and there are serious problems in the Yakima area too.  You canít tell me unregulated harvest along with an over abundance of predators isnít a two fold problem?  I live in the Yakima area and see it first hand.  And spend a lot of time in the blues. 

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2021, 07:33:08 PM »
I read this thread like many others and I wonder when will everyone realize the situation we are in and the simple fact that it is just going to get worse.  We have hashed all of this out in so many threads it makes me nauseous.  Take your time and money elsewhere because it is a lost cause and wont be fixed.  We can have committee's and study's but they are a waste of time (their intent is good but still a waste of time and recourses).  There are four facts that wont be changed in this state and never will.  The liberal courts and liberal voters will never allow it to happen.  just that plain and simple!  No need to talk or fret about it because it WILL NOT EVER CHANGE!  PERIOD END OF STORY!

Fact #1,  We will never be able to use hounds to hunt cougars.  it has already been voted on by our state population and wont happen.  Animal rights activists will never let it happen.  I have hunted buzillion hours in the mountains in cougar infested areas and seen all kinds of sign and kill sites but I have never seen an actual cougar in the wild.  They are elusive and sneaky and the average hunter will never see one in the wild.  You can give every hunter in the state 10 free cougar tags and it wont put a dent in the problem.  Only way to affectively hunt cougar is with dogs.

Fact # 2, We will never ever never be able to hunt for wolves in this state!  Never! Never! Never!  Wolves could be eating children on the way to schools in downtown Seattle and we still wont be able to hunt them.

Fact #3, We will never be able to use hounds or bait to hunt bears in this state.  Already been voted on by the state population and wont happen.  I could write more on this but I would just be copying information from above fact #1 so refer to that if you want any more information.

Fact #4, We will never be able to control native harvest, seasons, reporting, etc, etc, etc.  For those of you that think native harvest hasn't changed drastically in the last 10 years, you are living in a pipe-dream.  Just like trophy hunting has became a booming business for the normal hunter, it has sparked a great interest in a small population of the native hunters.  This has increased harvest and demand abundantly.  Technology has helped blow up the out of state/trophy hunting industry for the American hunter and has helped in the want and desire for more animals and trophy animals for natives also. The difference is that we are controlled by rules, quotas, and limits where the natives are not.  Before the internet a native could make jerky for his friends and locals.  Now he can sell it all over the world.  Before the boom of hunting TV a set of really nice 6 point bull antlers was worth a few hundred bucks.  Now they are worth over a thousand!  I don't want to go into any more native causes because they have been hashed out over and over again on this forum.  But for those who say, "you have no proof that all this happens", I say, "with no reporting or oversite, you have no proof that it doesn't".  But I have seen the web pages for jerky sales and the you-tube videos.  The simple fact is that nothing will change.  They hunt with the most modern equipment but show up in Seattle to court in native dress beating the drum and will get off every time.

So that's it folks in a nutshell.  What's more to say????  Let me help you, NOTHING!!! 

With these four simple facts, our Eastern Washington elk herds are simply doomed.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 07:58:26 PM by dvolmer »
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2021, 07:57:18 PM »
*censored*. I represent with my reality in the woods, in court and when I  advocate for OUR mutual interest.  If you have a problem with drums or traditional practices, that's on you.  Those same drums are EVERYWHERE we are, period. You keep on with your racist rhetoric.  I  won't begin to try to change your mind but will always advocate for a SHARED  resource. 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 04:20:15 AM by bearpaw »

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2021, 08:04:54 PM »
*censored*. I represent with my reality in the woods, in court and when I  advocate for OUR mutual interest.  If you have a problem with drums or traditional practices, that's on you.  Those same drums are EVERYWHERE we are, period. You keep on with your racist rhetoric.  I  won't begin to try to change your mind but will always advocate for a SHARED  resource.
The definition of a racism is when a certain group gets advantages over other groups due to their race, skin color, or ethnic background.  The Washington hunter/sportsman isn't getting the advantage here.  They are flipping the total bill and taking it in the shorts.  In todays world when the liberal mind gets stumped or upset, it always calls out "RACIST!!!!"  When facts cant be stated, resolutions can never be made, and solutions will never be able to fix the actual problem.  Pure and simple logic.  Just more proof as I stated above, that the problem will never be solved or fixed.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 04:21:06 AM by bearpaw »
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WTS Cabelas Alaskan Pack Frame by dreamingbig
[Today at 09:44:23 AM]


2022 Bears by starkeybomb
[Today at 09:14:16 AM]


Calling Cougars? by KFhunter
[Today at 09:00:15 AM]


Orange Aglow Game Bag Release w/Discount Code by Karl Blanchard
[Today at 08:33:20 AM]


Bear and Cougar call setís. by bearmanric
[Today at 08:29:15 AM]


Brisket #3/65 hours by LDennis24
[Today at 08:17:26 AM]


WTB 30CAL 200gr accubond or partion by OltHunter
[Today at 08:16:34 AM]


Mozambique Buffalo Hunt. by adictosacazar
[Today at 07:56:03 AM]


Ibex, Stag, Mouflon, Chamois & More. by adictosacazar
[Today at 07:55:22 AM]


WTS - E Bike by Mfowl
[Today at 07:50:55 AM]


WTS- Utility Ramp (Alum) by Mfowl
[Today at 07:18:59 AM]


WTS/ Backcountry Bull Kit. by trackemup
[Today at 06:51:29 AM]


Hey Turkey Killer's! by Tree Killer
[Today at 06:49:35 AM]


335 Teanaway Gimme your hot spots. by CP
[Today at 06:46:07 AM]


NWTF South Sound Strutters Enumclaw Chapter Banquet by Russ McDonald
[Today at 06:30:44 AM]


drew late Swakane deer tag by Skyvalhunter
[Today at 06:03:02 AM]


Brooks Range Dall Sheep - Foot on the gas!!! by Skyvalhunter
[Today at 05:59:50 AM]


Under Armour fleece by Dbourdo
[Today at 05:51:18 AM]

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