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Author Topic: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause  (Read 25919 times)

Offline Tbar

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2021, 08:18:12 PM »
@dvolmer you can kiss my ass. I represent with my reality in the woods, in court and when I  advocate for OUR mutual interest.  If you have a problem with drums or traditional practices, that's on you.  Those same drums are EVERYWHERE we are, period. You keep on with your racist rhetoric.  I  won't begin to try to change your mind but will always advocate for a SHARED  resource.
The definition of a racism is when a certain group gets advantages over other groups due to their race, skin color, or ethnic background.  The Washington hunter/sportsman isn't getting the advantage here.  They are flipping the total bill and taking it in the shorts.  In todays world when the liberal mind gets stumped or upset, it always calls out "RACIST!!!!"  When facts cant be stated, resolutions can never be made, and solutions will never be able to fix the actual problem.  Pure and simple logic.
Well to start problem solving phase of this equation you must first understand the basis on which the treaties were negotiated. (Hint, it was not race based)

Offline DeerSkin

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2021, 08:27:51 PM »
 :yeah:
I read this thread like many others and I wonder when will everyone realize the situation we are in and the simple fact that it is just going to get worse.  We have hashed all of this out in so many threads it makes me nauseous.  Take your time and money elsewhere because it is a lost cause and wont be fixed.  We can have committee's and study's but they are a waste of time (their intent is good but still a waste of time and recourses).  There are four facts that wont be changed in this state and never will.  The liberal courts and liberal voters will never allow it to happen.  just that plain and simple!  No need to talk or fret about it because it WILL NOT EVER CHANGE!  PERIOD END OF STORY!

Fact #1,  We will never be able to use hounds to hunt cougars.  it has already been voted on by our state population and wont happen.  Animal rights activists will never let it happen.  I have hunted buzillion hours in the mountains in cougar infested areas and seen all kinds of sign and kill sites but I have never seen an actual cougar in the wild.  They are elusive and sneaky and the average hunter will never see one in the wild.  You can give every hunter in the state 10 free cougar tags and it wont put a dent in the problem.  Only way to affectively hunt cougar is with dogs.

Fact # 2, We will never ever never be able to hunt for wolves in this state!  Never! Never! Never!  Wolves could be eating children on the way to schools in downtown Seattle and we still wont be able to hunt them.

Fact #3, We will never be able to use hounds or bait to hunt bears in this state.  Already been voted on by the state population and wont happen.  I could write more on this but I would just be copying information from above fact #1 so refer to that if you want any more information.

Fact #4, We will never be able to control native harvest, seasons, reporting, etc, etc, etc.  For those of you that think native harvest hasn't changed drastically in the last 10 years, you are living in a pipe-dream.  Just like trophy hunting has became a booming business for the normal hunter, it has sparked a great interest in a small population of the native hunters.  This has increased harvest and demand abundantly.  Technology has helped blow up the out of state/trophy hunting industry for the American hunter and has helped in the want and desire for more animals and trophy animals for natives also. The difference is that we are controlled by rules, quotas, and limits where the natives are not.  Before the internet a native could make jerky for his friends and locals.  Now he can sell it all over the world.  Before the boom of hunting TV a set of really nice 6 point bull antlers was worth a few hundred bucks.  Now they are worth over a thousand!  I don't want to go into any more native causes because they have been hashed out over and over again on this forum.  But for those who say, "you have no proof that all this happens", I say, "with no reporting or oversite, you have no proof that it doesn't".  But I have seen the web pages for jerky sales and the you-tube videos.  The simple fact is that nothing will change.  They hunt with the most modern equipment but show up in Seattle to court in native dress beating the drum and will get off every time.

So that's it folks in a nutshell.  What's more to say????  Let me help you, NOTHING!!! 

With these four simple facts, our Eastern Washington elk herds are simply doomed.

Offline stickbuck

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2021, 08:29:57 PM »
@dvolmer you can kiss my ass. I represent with my reality in the woods, in court and when I  advocate for OUR mutual interest.  If you have a problem with drums or traditional practices, that's on you.  Those same drums are EVERYWHERE we are, period. You keep on with your racist rhetoric.  I  won't begin to try to change your mind but will always advocate for a SHARED  resource.
Hey @Tbar, where is @dvolmer being racist or pushing a racist rhetoric? Heís just stating the facts and Iíd say he pretty much nailed it on the head. Traditional practices are one thing. However, it is well beyond traditional practices. Harvesting the resource and making a tremendous profit from it is completely unacceptable.


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Offline Tbar

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2021, 08:39:21 PM »
I'll offer a brief opinion of the op's initial topic. The root cause is looking us in the eye and solutions may lye in the realm of co-management with the tribes.  Population level declines in the absence of targeted cow harvest are often ecological and in this case predators.  Plain and simple. If you want to reference individual cohorts within a population (i.e. mature bulls)  I would likely take a different position and say human influence can and will change age structure within a population.  Management schemes can vary dramatically and do vary, even in this state, but as long as there is a gender bias towards male animals and you bull to cow ratio meets minimum biological needs you can reasonably expect stability or even increase within a herd. So is it painful for trophy hunters who heavily invested in either a lifetime of points or a bundle of cash to watch THE bull along with several others  loaded into an 80s era tan Toyota pickup? Absolutely!  Especially when it's in back to back years but again this is the result of management schemes to grow trophy quality animals. This can also be classified as an issue that, in this case,  is not management based. The problem lies in predator management or lack there of where partnering with the local tribes, who have more management tools in their toolbox, could prove mutually beneficial.

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2021, 08:43:47 PM »
I'll offer a brief opinion of the op's initial topic. The root cause is looking us in the eye and solutions may lye in the realm of co-management with the tribes.  Population level declines in the absence of targeted cow harvest are often ecological and in this case predators.  Plain and simple. If you want to reference individual cohorts within a population (i.e. mature bulls)  I would likely take a different position and say human influence can and will change age structure within a population.  Management schemes can vary dramatically and do vary, even in this state, but as long as there is a gender bias towards male animals and you bull to cow ratio meets minimum biological needs you can reasonably expect stability or even increase within a herd. So is it painful for trophy hunters who heavily invested in either a lifetime of points or a bundle of cash to watch THE bull along with several others  loaded into an 80s era tan Toyota pickup? Absolutely!  Especially when it's in back to back years but again this is the result of management schemes to grow trophy quality animals. This can also be classified as an issue that, in this case,  is not management based. The problem lies in predator management or lack there of where partnering with the local tribes, who have more management tools in their toolbox, could prove mutually beneficial.
I totally agree that predators are the main issue. A biologist in the Blues told us back in the mid 90ís that calf survival was already below 40% due to cats and bears. Crazy to think that they knew about this problem almost 30 years and they did nothing to attempt to fix it. Couple that with the damage the wolves are doing and we are in a world of hurt. Super sad when you remember what it used to be like.


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Offline Tbar

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2021, 08:47:56 PM »
@dvolmer you can kiss my ass. I represent with my reality in the woods, in court and when I  advocate for OUR mutual interest.  If you have a problem with drums or traditional practices, that's on you.  Those same drums are EVERYWHERE we are, period. You keep on with your racist rhetoric.  I  won't begin to try to change your mind but will always advocate for a SHARED  resource.
Hey @Tbar, where is @dvolmer being racist or pushing a racist rhetoric? Heís just stating the facts and Iíd say he pretty much nailed it on the head. Traditional practices are one thing. However, it is well beyond traditional practices. Harvesting the resource and making a tremendous profit from it is completely unacceptable.


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Tremendous profit? Where do you get that?  There are avenues to tremendous profit, commerce of parts is not the first that comes to mind. Traditional practices? There is nothing at all that binds to traditional practices nor has that been a claim, even by the most conservative courts in the u.s.

Offline Tbar

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2021, 08:53:22 PM »
I'll offer a brief opinion of the op's initial topic. The root cause is looking us in the eye and solutions may lye in the realm of co-management with the tribes.  Population level declines in the absence of targeted cow harvest are often ecological and in this case predators.  Plain and simple. If you want to reference individual cohorts within a population (i.e. mature bulls)  I would likely take a different position and say human influence can and will change age structure within a population.  Management schemes can vary dramatically and do vary, even in this state, but as long as there is a gender bias towards male animals and you bull to cow ratio meets minimum biological needs you can reasonably expect stability or even increase within a herd. So is it painful for trophy hunters who heavily invested in either a lifetime of points or a bundle of cash to watch THE bull along with several others  loaded into an 80s era tan Toyota pickup? Absolutely!  Especially when it's in back to back years but again this is the result of management schemes to grow trophy quality animals. This can also be classified as an issue that, in this case,  is not management based. The problem lies in predator management or lack there of where partnering with the local tribes, who have more management tools in their toolbox, could prove mutually beneficial.
I totally agree that predators are the main issue. A biologist in the Blues told us back in the mid 90ís that calf survival was already below 40% due to cats and bears. Crazy to think that they knew about this problem almost 30 years and they did nothing to attempt to fix it. Couple that with the damage the wolves are doing and we are in a world of hurt. Super sad when you remember what it used to be like.


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There are several things that have changed since then.  All of the changes have been detrimental to elk. I know what Pat Fowler built but as he told you the ship began to sail towards the end of his career.  Couple that with serious habitat loss/constriction and a philosophical management change in regards to human/elk conflict and impacts and it doesn't promote growth. The giant bulls he grew were really cool but not drivers of the population.  The drivers are and always will be the factories(cows).

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2021, 08:58:21 PM »
I have an idea. Get tribal members to start running hounds and killing cats. While theyíre at it they can run bears and kill some of them also. Then in their spare time they can whack some of the wolfs. Theyíre a user group that could actually have an effect that could help numbers in areas but I donít personally see that ever happening.

Offline rackattack

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2021, 09:07:28 PM »
 :yeah:

What is preventing the natives from running hounds?

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2021, 03:08:56 AM »
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2021, 08:11:46 AM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
4-O is taking a beating again this year.  We saw 3 Idaho rigs going up and one coming down.  Iím about an hour while we were sitting at camp a few weeks ago.  The one coming down pulled in with a six point and not much meat.  He was wearing shorts and a t shirt.  And we talked to one of the Odems that lives there.  Nighttime/daytime it doesnít matter.  Predators hammering the young ones and tribal nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state.

I understand you saw a 6x6 elk being driven out by a guy in shorts and talked to another guy about 24-hour hunting practices. This is hardly empirical evidence that the harvest practices of the tribes have changed in recent years, causing a huge decrease in elk mortality in that area. You go on to say that "...tribal(s) nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state." This is a broad swipe of the brush, as there are many factors contributing to ungulate population declines in different parts of our state, many of them due to mismanagement of resources by non-tribal entities, like state and/or federal agencies.  In almost all of those areas, tribal harvest and the characteristics of that harvest are not a new phenomena. Although I'm open to evidence that shows tribal harvest as a mitigating factor in the decline of ungulate populations, I have seen little so far. To the contrary, many of the tribes in our state are conservation-minded and do their best to maintain healthy ungulate populations, through habitat improvement and predator control. If we are to find solutions to a very clear problem in the Blues (and I see it's a big problem), we'd better start with data and facts, instead of conjecture, or we're liable to miss the actual causal factors and not have the desired effect of stemming the trend. My  :twocents:
you are very wrong that the Nez do anything for conservation in Washington, and there are serious problems in the Yakima area too.  You canít tell me unregulated harvest along with an over abundance of predators isnít a two fold problem?  I live in the Yakima area and see it first hand.  And spend a lot of time in the blues.

I didn't say the Nez or the Yaks did anything. I said that many tribes do work on conservation. Re-read my statements. I'm quite clear. What I did say is I don't see evidence that the impact natives are having on ungulate populations has changed in the period of time that the herds in the Blues have changed. Look past your personal feelings for things that HAVE changed. Again, if you only want to point fingers at all the people you've been pointing fingers at as the cause for the decline, you're likely going to miss the real causes. That's on you.
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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2021, 08:34:37 AM »
The 4-O ranch has only been public land since 2015 and there has been a giant reduction in population since this change occurred.   This land allows for road hunting, individuals that shoot rifles at all times of the year, day or night to easily harvest elk off farm fields with great road access.

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2021, 08:41:47 AM »
The 4-O ranch has only been public land since 2015 and there has been a giant reduction in population since this change occurred.   This land allows for road hunting, individuals that shoot rifles at all times of the year, day or night to easily harvest elk off farm fields with great road access.
Interesting.  There was zero claims of population decline when it went before the commission. There was considerable discussion around mature bull harvest.  And anger towards the same 80s era tan Toyota. The correct approach may have been road decommissioning? That seems to be a less political conservation based approach, but that rhetoric never made it to the commission.

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2021, 09:03:03 AM »
I'll offer a brief opinion of the op's initial topic. The root cause is looking us in the eye and solutions may lye in the realm of co-management with the tribes.  Population level declines in the absence of targeted cow harvest are often ecological and in this case predators.  Plain and simple. If you want to reference individual cohorts within a population (i.e. mature bulls)  I would likely take a different position and say human influence can and will change age structure within a population.  Management schemes can vary dramatically and do vary, even in this state, but as long as there is a gender bias towards male animals and you bull to cow ratio meets minimum biological needs you can reasonably expect stability or even increase within a herd. So is it painful for trophy hunters who heavily invested in either a lifetime of points or a bundle of cash to watch THE bull along with several others  loaded into an 80s era tan Toyota pickup? Absolutely!  Especially when it's in back to back years but again this is the result of management schemes to grow trophy quality animals. This can also be classified as an issue that, in this case,  is not management based. The problem lies in predator management or lack there of where partnering with the local tribes, who have more management tools in their toolbox, could prove mutually beneficial.
     

Why dont the tribes run hounds for cats and even kill wolves? That WOULD be mutually beneficial

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Re: Blues Elk Substantial Decline and the Root Cause
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2021, 09:12:27 AM »
Unfortunately these grateful, well meaning, meetings, tracking collaring research efforts are all a waste of time unless everyone is willing to address the gorilla in the room. The group of people no one is willing to address or are able to change is the Tribal impact on the elk in the SE Blues...period. When the state purchases private land, leading us to believe they are helping the hunters and wild life, it just opens more available opportunities for hunters other than Washington Licensed hunters. No one is willing or able to address. Look at the grouse flats/4-0 acquisition...took a terrible beating last year. Sad, but nothing will happen

So, are you saying that the relatively recent decline in elk calf production is due to Native harvest, and if so, which tribe, The Yakima or the Nez Perce? This is a confusing statement to me because both tribes have had access rights to the Blues for decades, as far as I know. There would have had to be a large upward change in native harvesting quite recently for your statement to show causation. What I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the population problems only started to appear within the last decade and have accelerated within the last 4-5 years. What's changed in that period of time regarding the tribes? What other changes have there been during that period of time - predators, Hoof disease?

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, bobdog, but the patterns don't align with what you're claiming unless I'm missing a change in tribal harvest trends over the last ten years or less.  :dunno:
4-O is taking a beating again this year.  We saw 3 Idaho rigs going up and one coming down.  Iím about an hour while we were sitting at camp a few weeks ago.  The one coming down pulled in with a six point and not much meat.  He was wearing shorts and a t shirt.  And we talked to one of the Odems that lives there.  Nighttime/daytime it doesnít matter.  Predators hammering the young ones and tribal nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state.

I understand you saw a 6x6 elk being driven out by a guy in shorts and talked to another guy about 24-hour hunting practices. This is hardly empirical evidence that the harvest practices of the tribes have changed in recent years, causing a huge decrease in elk mortality in that area. You go on to say that "...tribal(s) nailing bulls and bucks is a recipe for what we have going on in this state." This is a broad swipe of the brush, as there are many factors contributing to ungulate population declines in different parts of our state, many of them due to mismanagement of resources by non-tribal entities, like state and/or federal agencies.  In almost all of those areas, tribal harvest and the characteristics of that harvest are not a new phenomena. Although I'm open to evidence that shows tribal harvest as a mitigating factor in the decline of ungulate populations, I have seen little so far. To the contrary, many of the tribes in our state are conservation-minded and do their best to maintain healthy ungulate populations, through habitat improvement and predator control. If we are to find solutions to a very clear problem in the Blues (and I see it's a big problem), we'd better start with data and facts, instead of conjecture, or we're liable to miss the actual causal factors and not have the desired effect of stemming the trend. My  :twocents:
you are very wrong that the Nez do anything for conservation in Washington, and there are serious problems in the Yakima area too.  You canít tell me unregulated harvest along with an over abundance of predators isnít a two fold problem?  I live in the Yakima area and see it first hand.  And spend a lot of time in the blues.

I didn't say the Nez or the Yaks did anything. I said that many tribes do work on conservation. Re-read my statements. I'm quite clear. What I did say is I don't see evidence that the impact natives are having on ungulate populations has changed in the period of time that the herds in the Blues have changed. Look past your personal feelings for things that HAVE changed. Again, if you only want to point fingers at all the people you've been pointing fingers at as the cause for the decline, you're likely going to miss the real causes. That's on you.
 
 I would agree native harvest is not the only or not even the main problem. But native harvest IS a factor and should be pointed out.
The Nez Perce from Idaho hammer the elk in there and they do get more money for horns than they used too. My guess is their harvest has gone way up. I think the point is when you have a predator pit you need to consider all 4 predators-Tribes,cats,wolves and bears. Before wolves and out of control cats and bears the herd probably could sustain a higher native harvest. With all 4 beating on the elk they stand no chance. You can't consider just 3 issues you have to look at all 4 and how they inter relate. I don't think pointing the finger at the tribes only is fair or helpful but it needs to be pointed out which is what the op was doing.(i think)   

 


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