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Author Topic: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........  (Read 9126 times)

Offline AutumnPulse

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My friend and I spent yesterday at a personal 150 yard range (owned by a friend) sighting-in and shooting our muzzleloaders for the upcoming muzzy-elk season, which is coming up on us....FAST!  6 weeks and it's GO-TIME!!! 
I've long been a reloading fanatic and am constantly looking for the best recipe for any given situation; And with elk hunting, the scenarios can be endless.  I haven't lost many elk, but I have lost a couple, and it is truly devastating when it happens....

5 years ago, we switched from Rifle (general) to Muzzleloaders for the elk season.   It was a good switch, as the pressure in the WA Mtns. is ALOT lower and no one in my camp is the spray and pray type...... One opportunity, producing one shot is more than adequate.  And yes.....because we are human, have botched some of those......   
I've shot plenty of elk and I've seen good performance and horrible performance, even if i've recovered the quarry.  Muzzleloading (with slower than rifle velocities) introduces a whole new realm to elk hunting.  (It's my belief that most muzzy bullets are mass-produced and are designed for whitetail.)  I've shot a lot of deer, but bucks ain't what I'm thinking about year around...........It's Bulls!

So what do you choose when you want to elk hunt with a muzzleloader and don't wanna grab a Powerbelt off of the shelf?  I would point you to the Barnes Bullets, but I myself refuse to use them.  ( But I would rather you choose Barnes Bullets than a powerbelt)   My brother swears by them, but I've lost two animals that were solidly hit by them and neither one opened up to provide any kind of wound channel.  That is my personal opinion and this "post" is about offering another "option".  My day job includes metallurgy so I understand changing metal properties, probably better than most, so I won't suffer any arguements, in this regard.  I know the ins and outs of heat-treating metal and just how sensitive (and vulnerable) it can be.   I purposefully choose bullets that have "some" lead in them......
 
So.....Here's my thoughts:   I've shot Elk with hardcast bullets out of my muzzleloader.  Did I get awesome penetration?  Yep, pass-through penetration and didn't recover the bullets..... Have I lost elk with hardcast?  Also, Yes...... If your shot is less than perfect, hardcast will "pencil" through like a laser-beam and won't do much damage.....  The blood-clotting ability of an elk, is simply unmatched.....They'll take a solid lung hit, give you the middle finger, and die somewhere within a 5 mile diameter, after they they have "clotted" and purchased themselves another 20 minutes of running........
 
With off the shelf bullets, You can expect something all together different, especially with a shoulder shot.......  We can't use scopes here in WA, so all of the ballistic Coefficient doodads, count for nothing.... If you're getting 2" groups at 100 yards, please PM me and let me know what sight config, your rockin'.....  Our party has decided that if we can hit an 8" paper plate at 150 yards, (with open sights) we are good to go.....  (Now I also know that there is a whole community of peep sight/ladder sight folks out there that can do better than this,) but my counter arguement is a bull in the timber at 30 yards.....   A WA elk hunter needs to be able to do both..... (a shot at 30 and a shot at 150)
   
Here is the recipe that I firmly believe in:  I would take this over a Thor, Barnes, custom bullets from all mfg's like T/C, Remington, CVA or ANY of the other brands........  Again, those companies are in the business to sell stuff and designing bullets are going to be 100% geared for whitetail which all of the lower 48 states have...... WHICH MEAN SALES FOR THEM!!!!   Elk are a WHOLE different animal......... You need POWER  with something that has superb penetration and good expansion.......

Here is what we are using:   We use a 350 Grain Swift A-Frame Bullet, which if you ask any pro-hunter, is theeeee benchmark for penetration, with expansion...  If you're going to Africa, they will tell you to get Swift A-Frames, Woodleigh WeldCore's, NorthFork's and possibly Nosler Partitions, might be included......

So with Muzzleloaders, what is the name of the game?  We have slower velocities, but want deep penetration.  What bullet would slightly open up, but not go complete mushroom, so as to allow the bullet to retain it's weight as it travels through the animal?  When I first started pondering this, I had a muzzy that didn't like anything beyond 100 grains of powder....  WA changed it's rules 2 years ago and we can now use 209 ignition, but we can't use scopes..... I have a T?C Triumph and I freeeeekin' love it!!!!   I'm currently looking into ladder sights, like the buffalo hunters of old.......  I've certainly got a bullet that will do it and that is what this post is about....

I use a 350 Grain Swift A-Frame (45-70) bullet.....  (I own a 45/70 guide gun, which is the best damn timber-elk rifle on the planet, and so these bullets can be dual purpose)......  In my 50 Cal. muzzleloader, I want a bullet that will expand, but KEEP it's mass, so as to push as deep as it can through the bull...... and we pray for an exit wound, which will make tracking easier......  We learned yesterday, that this is ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE for a muzzleloader, shooting reasonable distances........

We were shooting at 100 yards, 3 inch high (100 yard) zero, with open sights and this bullet performs flawlessly.......  We use a Harvester Crushed Rib Sabot (orange for .458 diameter) and 120 grains of 777 FFG to push it.....along with Fed. 209A primers.......  This load produces 1850 fps average and I am confident out to 150 yards........

This load is NOT designed for deer...... It'll work, but a Powerbelt will too.  Powerbelts, (as expensive as they are) are designed for deer.  This load is for ELK, and if you are going to put in the time to get up there, put in the miles and seriously go after them, then you want a load that will be commensurate with the effort you put in.....  THIS IS IT.............
If you want this, you will need a sabot that accommodates this bullet.  To my knowledge only one mfger makes it, and it is what I use.  It's a Harvester "Crushed Rib" Sabot designed for .458 bullets.  They are color coded just like different gauges in shotguns, so pay attention: If your going to use a 45/70 bullet, like I described, you ONLY can use an "ORANGE" sabots from Harvester Muzzleloading.  www.harvestermuzzleloading.com     If someone else is making .458 sabots, I am not aware.  If you know who is, please let me know!

This post is meant to be informational, even if you can't obtain what you need this year, from all of the mfgers.  The shortage is a mess and I'm genuinely pissed about all of the mfgrs. being out and all of their primary carriers, also being out.  Powder, Primers and Bullets are a trick to find these days in WA or online, but it will ease up......It always does.......   BUY THIS $H*T IN JANUARY.......   You hunt every year, so buy ahead.......  Is it expensive?   Yes......but you can relegate it a bit........  I shoot Sierra " Hot-Cor" rounds as my practice shots and they are damn good!   Sierra's are $35 for a box of 50 bullets.....  Swift A-Frames are 92.00 for a box of 50.....Is it worth it?   Damn Right!      How much do you spend taking the time off of work, and pullin' a trailer or tent and (all of your supplies) up into Elk country?   Your spendin' $700 plus to get up there, ( at the least) and you wanna throw a walmart bullet at your big bull opportunity?

Here is some data that we pulled yesterday:
Load:
350 Grain Swift A-Frames, Sierra Hot-Corrs, @ 100 yards
Federal 209A Primers
120 Grains of T7 FFG Powder  (Hodgdon 777 Powder)
Harvester .458 Sabots for muzzleloading  (orange color)
We had a chrono and we dug some bullets out of the bank.
Average FPS was 1842 w/ 120 Gr. of 777 FFG.

Lowest (recovered) weight of the A-Frames was 327 Gr. from a bullet that hit an old bicycle frame, buried in the backstop....which caused the shredded petal.  The others had 330 grains+ and perfect mushrooms,......and these were with a muzzleloaders!   If you need an elk bullet, this is it.........

I hope this has helped you and NOT given you anxiety.......But then again, I would rather trouble your ass now, then to for you to blow the shoulder out on a trophy bull that you spend 3 days looking for, but never recover........ 

Offline ThurstonCokid

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2021, 09:01:58 PM »
Thanks for the info!


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Offline wadu1

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2021, 09:17:01 PM »
Good information, when I upgrade. I currently use 460 Buffalo Bullets over 110grs of 2FF and RWS cap. My rifle is a Thompson Hawkins sidelock everything is original. The only thing I change is adding whiteout on the front sight. The bullets are no longer made down to my last 20 and the whiteout can be hard to find.
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Offline MountainDevil54

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2021, 09:32:22 PM »

Offline Dan-o

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2021, 09:49:31 PM »
Nice.

I'm absolutely a fan of working up an elk load for your muzzleloader....   And I totally agree with you about stuff that is geared toward Whitetails.

My personal load is a 400 grain Harvester hardcast flat nose bullet over 120 grains of powder.

I always* get a huge exit wound and a devastating wound channel.

Good luck out there this year!
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Offline lonedave

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2021, 11:49:17 PM »
I'm with MountainDevil54 on this one, though my ball of choice is .595 with a little more lube on the patch!

Offline callturner

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2021, 07:05:49 AM »
You did not mention the gun of choice. Muzzle loaders do have different barrel sizes on the inside and that also makes a difference on which sabot you choose. I shoot a CVA Accura v2 PR with a rear peep and Lyman front and a post apture for hunting. I shoot a .452Deep Curl Speer bullet in a black crushrib sabot over 84 weighed gr of Blackhorn 209.  Deadly on anything it hits.

Offline kselkhunter

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2021, 07:16:57 AM »
The Swift A-Frames are also my chosen muzzy bullet in states that allow sabots.  Swift sells their 44 cal 300gr pistol in a sabot as their "muzzleloader" bullet.  Nice thing is they "open" and perform all the way down to 850 fps impact velocities and since they're an AFrame can also perform at high velocity impacts at closer ranges (higher than a muzzy can really get to).


Sounds like you accomplished the same thing with their 45 cal bullet and your own sabot selection. 

Offline ruttnbuck

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2021, 09:51:39 PM »
Thanks for the info,  I'm new to muzzy hunting this year and and am going after elk .  I know it'll be a learning year so I'll take all the advice I can get.  Thanks again

Offline Damnimissed

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2021, 10:46:56 AM »
What Barnes bullets were you having not open up?? My buddy and I are all Barnes for elk, 290gr TMZ and TEZ with 100gr 777-3f (now BH209) We’ve killed a good handful of bulls with them since switching over and only recovered one that blew through both scapulas and came to rest against the hide. The rest were expanded pass-throughs. Plus, they shoot ridiculously good from my CVA optima, like MOA or better with a Williams globe set up.

Offline Farmer72

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2021, 11:32:32 AM »
MMP makes 50 cal .458 sabots. I use the .451 sabots and 250 FTX bullets for deer hunting.

https://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/

Offline sixgun_symphony

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2021, 12:25:41 AM »
You really need to get the book "The Sporting Rifle and It's Projectiles" by James Forsyth (1867)

 That guy killed more elephant and other big dangerous game than any modern hunter will ever see.
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Offline hike2hunt

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2021, 06:37:02 PM »
Thanks for sharing.

Offline cooltimber

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2021, 07:31:43 PM »
awesome writeup's
rvn 69-70 11 b 2p 173rd
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Offline MerriamMagician

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2021, 12:08:19 PM »
Man, this may be the post I've been looking for. I was a first time muzzy hunter for elk last year. Ended up getting in to some incredible elk hunting. On day 5 I put a barnes 250 TMZ into a huge 7 points shoulder at under 40 yards. He went straight down and was flopping around feet up. I backed off to give him time but made 2 mistakes I usually wouldn't. I failed to mark the shot location with flagging in the thick woods like I normally would and I left a gps pin, but accidently marked a different location over a quarter mile off from where the shot occurred. Long story short, I had a hard time finding the original shot location and spent days looking for the bull with no sign of blood anywhere. Even came back a week later looking and still no bull. It was a crushing heartbreak.

This year me and my buddy returned and both got bulls. However the barnes bullets again failed to expand and recovering the bulls was really painstaking with no blood trails or signs of a good hit. I'd like to get a better elk killing combo for next year, so thanks for this post along with others input!  :hello:
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Offline bobcat

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2021, 12:22:12 PM »
I had great results with a 290 grain Barnes T-EZ out of a CVA Optima last weekend, on a big cow elk at 45 yards. Bullet punched through both shoulders and she went down hard in less than 50 yards. They're accurate in my gun and load easy. The Swift A frames do sound like a great option, but I'm already well stocked up with Barnes bullets, and the thing I like the most is no lead fragments in the meat.

Offline duckmen1

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2021, 01:14:24 PM »
For me I am a new believer of Harvester Hard cast 330 gr with 100gr pyrodex rs and musket caps. Last bull I just saw shot was a double lung shot. Went no more than 20 yards. And 10 yards of blood trail was like this. Pass through and awesome terminal damage.
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Offline sixgun_symphony

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2021, 01:49:14 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle. Thought it can be said that your inline rifle is a modern rifle.

 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge. A Winchester Model 94, an M-16, a Kentucky longrifle, these are all rifles though some are more advanced than others.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 01:58:47 PM by sixgun_symphony »
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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2021, 01:54:43 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle.

 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge.

Don't need to be so tooth and nail about it  :chuckle:

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2021, 01:56:12 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle.
 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge.

What is also true is a bullet in a modern rifle is considered loaded as it is a cased cartridge. But a bullet in a muzzleloader rifle  is considered primed but not loaded as long as a cap isn't on the nipple. Had to throw that out there too. It was fitting.   :chuckle:
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Offline sixgun_symphony

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2021, 01:59:15 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle.

 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge.

Don't need to be so tooth and nail about it  :chuckle:

 I get the same annoyance when people say "bullets" when they mean "cartridges".
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Offline sixgun_symphony

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2021, 02:02:52 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle.
 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge.

What is also true is a bullet in a modern rifle is considered loaded as it is a cased cartridge. But a bullet in a muzzleloader rifle  is considered primed but not loaded as long as a cap isn't on the nipple. Had to throw that out there too. It was fitting.   :chuckle:

 Not just a bullet, but a metallic cartridge. You got primer (ignition), powder, and bullet. All self contained.

 Being a handloader and bullet caster, my OCD gets triggered when people say "bullets" to mean "cartridge". Though the term can also mean paper combustable cartridges too.
Audacity, and again, audacity, and always audacity.

Offline phildobaggins

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2021, 02:17:24 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle.
 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge.

What is also true is a bullet in a modern rifle is considered loaded as it is a cased cartridge. But a bullet in a muzzleloader rifle  is considered primed but not loaded as long as a cap isn't on the nipple. Had to throw that out there too. It was fitting.   :chuckle:

 Not just a bullet, but a metallic cartridge. You got primer (ignition), powder, and bullet. All self contained.

 Being a handloader and bullet caster, my OCD gets triggered when people say "bullets" to mean "cartridge". Though the term can also mean paper combustable cartridges too.

Since we’re doing this, the cartridge doesn’t have to be metallic 😉

Please don’t assume my cartridge’s identity 😂

Offline Dan-o

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2021, 03:34:00 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle.
 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge.

What is also true is a bullet in a modern rifle is considered loaded as it is a cased cartridge. But a bullet in a muzzleloader rifle  is considered primed but not loaded as long as a cap isn't on the nipple. Had to throw that out there too. It was fitting.   :chuckle:

 Not just a bullet, but a metallic cartridge. You got primer (ignition), powder, and bullet. All self contained.

 Being a handloader and bullet caster, my OCD gets triggered when people say "bullets" to mean "cartridge". Though the term can also mean paper combustable cartridges too.

Since we’re doing this, the cartridge doesn’t have to be metallic 😉

Please don’t assume my cartridge’s identity 😂

"Your" cartridge?

So your cartridge can identify as it wishes, but it doesn't have full bodily autonomy?   :yike:
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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2021, 04:41:22 PM »
Just a pet peeve of mine, but you did not go from "rifle to muzzleloader". You went from modern rifle to muzzle loading rifle.
 It is the rifled bore than makes a rifle, not the metallic cartridge.

What is also true is a bullet in a modern rifle is considered loaded as it is a cased cartridge. But a bullet in a muzzleloader rifle  is considered primed but not loaded as long as a cap isn't on the nipple. Had to throw that out there too. It was fitting.   :chuckle:

 Not just a bullet, but a metallic cartridge. You got primer (ignition), powder, and bullet. All self contained.

 Being a handloader and bullet caster, my OCD gets triggered when people say "bullets" to mean "cartridge". Though the term can also mean paper combustable cartridges too.

Since we’re doing this, the cartridge doesn’t have to be metallic 😉

Please don’t assume my cartridge’s identity 😂

"Your" cartridge?

So your cartridge can identify as it wishes, but it doesn't have full bodily autonomy?   :yike:

LMAO smoked me  :tup:

Offline HntnFsh

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2021, 07:51:01 PM »
Man, this may be the post I've been looking for. I was a first time muzzy hunter for elk last year. Ended up getting in to some incredible elk hunting. On day 5 I put a barnes 250 TMZ into a huge 7 points shoulder at under 40 yards. He went straight down and was flopping around feet up. I backed off to give him time but made 2 mistakes I usually wouldn't. I failed to mark the shot location with flagging in the thick woods like I normally would and I left a gps pin, but accidently marked a different location over a quarter mile off from where the shot occurred. Long story short, I had a hard time finding the original shot location and spent days looking for the bull with no sign of blood anywhere. Even came back a week later looking and still no bull. It was a crushing heartbreak.

This year me and my buddy returned and both got bulls. However the barnes bullets again failed to expand and recovering the bulls was really painstaking with no blood trails or signs of a good hit. I'd like to get a better elk killing combo for next year, so thanks for this post along with others input!  :hello:

Personally, I wouldn't use a 250 grain bullet for elk. Even if it's a Barnes. I have killed probably 10 elk with Barnes 290 and 300 grain bullets and the ones I have found have all mushroomed beautifully. Just like the 1 in my avatar.

Also look at the 300 grain Lehighs that Sabot loader promotes on here. incredible bullet. I killed a small bull Saturday evening with one. Heck of a blood trail. But a short 1. Never found the bullet.

Offline Dark2Dark

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Re: (In my Opinion) The Best Elk Load for Muzzleloaders Available..........
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2021, 02:19:31 PM »


Personally, I wouldn't use a 250 grain bullet for elk. Even if it's a Barnes. I have killed probably 10 elk with Barnes 290 and 300 grain bullets and the ones I have found have all mushroomed beautifully. Just like the 1 in my avatar.

Also look at the 300 grain Lehighs that Sabot loader promotes on here. incredible bullet. I killed a small bull Saturday evening with one. Heck of a blood trail. But a short 1. Never found the bullet.

I use the 250-grain bullet, but I push it with 200 gr of powder. It works exceptionally well. I have killed my biggest bull and my biggest mule deer with that load.

I have had nothing but great performance from Barnes/Remington bullets- both the 250 and the 290 TEZ's. And they are extremely accurate.

Sorry, while I understand the concept that whitetails make up a large amount of the country's quarry, I don't buy into the Barnes 290s being designed to kill whitetail, primarily. Or, that being the case for their rifle projectiles, either. But, don't ask me, I only worked for them! Haha. Barnes is located in the heart of elk hunting country and they have a bunch of hardcore hunters that work in R & D. None of them that I knew hunted whitetail.

The bullets that I have recovered in the offside hide all looked like perfectly mushroomed copper (like HntnFsh's avatar). The ones that I did not recover certainly left a hole big enough to suggest full expansion. To me, every animal dies differently. They won't all be boom-flops. If you hit an animal high and don't hit a substantial artery, you're going to get internal bleeding instead of a flowing blood trail. My biggest bull lived probably 25 minutes (although he laid down after about five)- he was dumping enough blood that I could watch it with my naked eye from 150-200 yards.

The only application in which I do not use Barnes with super high confidence is on animals outside of about 600 yards- where, by their own admission, most rounds and calibers lack the velocity to fully expand. 

 


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