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Author Topic: What We Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk  (Read 7671 times)

Offline Browndawg

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What We Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« on: January 11, 2022, 10:44:31 AM »
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 06:19:36 PM by Browndawg »

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2022, 10:51:33 AM »
The ban was instated by voter initiative. Except for performing emergency removal, the WDFW has no power to reverse that vote. It has to be done through voter initiative or referendum.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline 7mmfan

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2022, 10:52:26 AM »
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?

This comes up every time. They can't just "bring back" hound hunting. It was an initiative that was passed by the people, so it will take an act of the legislature or another initiative to bring it back.

Next in line is the Governor, who last year I believe wouldn't authorize an increase in the cougar quota despite WDFW saying it was advisable. We also have a game commission who, while currently under fire, has made it clear that they do not care what the WDFW biologists have to say and will make their decisions on seasons and quotas based on feelings.

My guess is the WDFW has known this for a while and would probably like to do something about it, but they literally have all the cards stacked against them, with very few meaningful options available to them that could make a difference.

Right now, all GMU's in the state are still open for cougar hunting. Get out there and track one down.
I hunt, therefore I am.... I fish, therefore I lie.

Offline timberfaller

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2022, 10:57:30 AM »
You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either! :bash: :bash:
The only good tree, is a stump!

Offline Browndawg

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2022, 11:05:26 AM »
https://www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/cougars-decimate-washington-elk-calves/

When will WDFW get to the base of the problem and bring back hound hunting?

This comes up every time. They can't just "bring back" hound hunting. It was an initiative that was passed by the people, so it will take an act of the legislature or another initiative to bring it back.

Next in line is the Governor, who last year I believe wouldn't authorize an increase in the cougar quota despite WDFW saying it was advisable. We also have a game commission who, while currently under fire, has made it clear that they do not care what the WDFW biologists have to say and will make their decisions on seasons and quotas based on feelings.

My guess is the WDFW has known this for a while and would probably like to do something about it, but they literally have all the cards stacked against them, with very few meaningful options available to them that could make a difference.

Right now, all GMU's in the state are still open for cougar hunting. Get out there and track one down.

Yeah, I shouldn't have said WDFW. I know it's not up to them. It's just makes me sick to my stomach that our elected officials refuse to do the right thing for our elk and deer herds.
I need to learn how to hunt big cats. I've spent 40 years in the woods and have never laid eyes on one. I've seen tracks and have come across their kills, but that's it. 

Offline headshot5

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2022, 11:06:25 AM »
You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either! :bash: :bash:

Yeah that.  The initiative was bogus, as it dealt with banning hound hunting, and banning baiting at the same time.  Should have been thrown out as it deals with 2 issues on one initiative.

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2022, 11:21:46 AM »
You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either! :bash: :bash:

Yeah that.  The initiative was bogus, as it dealt with banning hound hunting, and banning baiting at the same time.  Should have been thrown out as it deals with 2 issues on one initiative.

I-1639 also had multiple aspects. The state Supreme Court is packed with liberals. That vote will never happen unless the bill they're considering is about more rights for the people or fewer government restrictions or taxes. And it doesn't matter for two reasons. First, the way the laws are written about the WDFW, they can't express an opinion about the impacts or concerns about an initiative or referendum. This allowed huge and unopposed misinformation by the anti-hunting lobby, the lobby that probably fills the governor's pockets with the most money or close to it. And secondly, this anti-hunting lobby can far outspend any group or coalition of groups to make sure that King, Pierce, and Thurston Counties  kill any initiative or referendum seeking to overturn the ban. We're stuck with the ban as long as the controlling liberals are counting the votes.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Farmer72

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2022, 12:10:16 PM »
You can thank the WA Supreme court jesters for not overturning the Initiative!!  They couldn't count!  Our state claims to have "single" issue Initiative system.  To bad the court jesters couldn't count past ONE!  But then the WDFW didn't fight very hard either! :bash: :bash:

Yeah that.  The initiative was bogus, as it dealt with banning hound hunting, and banning baiting at the same time.  Should have been thrown out as it deals with 2 issues on one initiative.

It is a single subject system not single issue. You can have multiple things on it if it all works toward the same single subject.

I agree it is BS and that they stretch it by coming up with broad subject they can stuff several things under.

That is how I-1639 was put because it was all under the subject of safety.

Offline Alan K

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2022, 01:08:12 PM »
What WDFW could do though, for bears in addition to cougars, is expand seasons and bag limits for boot hunting methods recognizing that the lack of hound hunting has led to massive population increases having a detrimental effect on ungulates. Bear and cougar populations we sustainable with long season, baiting, trapping, etc. before the initiative. There could be unlimited bag limits and year around hunting and the boot hunting harvest would never reach those pre-initiative levels.

Falling populations are a function of take outpacing growth. The predator population has increased to a point that there needs to be a some take removed from the system, either in the form of predator removal, or hunting reduction in order to maintain the healthy populations we've historically had.  This is why the enviro's fight for no predator control, because it will eventually lead to a reduction in hunting. Restrict hunting enough and the sport will continue to fade out of existence. The more hunter numbers shrink, the higher the proportion of anti-hunting input. It's a snowball effect in the wrong direction.

Offline Special T

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2022, 02:17:14 PM »
IMO the important factor is the general trend of protecting predators. The Antis can make us chase our tail debating the details, while we do so they will just shave us a little closer to thier goal.  Fact, losing hounds has reduced harvest. Fact at every turn certain WDFW employees, legislators and the Govenor have done everything to suppress harvest. Other methods of hunting cats can be effective but lowering the quotas and ignoring the impacts of predation is a tactic. Delay is a strategy, and it is currently on the side of animal rights groups.

The powers that be are ok with killing more cats in the NE due to depredations than hunting season. The are ok will selling us on lower carry capacity of elk in the Blues than increase predator harvest. More than 1 tribe is running dogs to kill cats, and have killed a lot of them. (I wish more of it took place) I don't think the issue is killing predators as much as hurting and disenfranchisement of hunters.
We need to wrestle back control of the comission and some politicians in the Natural Resource Comitties.
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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2022, 03:16:05 PM »
What WDFW could do though, for bears in addition to cougars, is expand seasons and bag limits for boot hunting methods recognizing that the lack of hound hunting has led to massive population increases having a detrimental effect on ungulates. Bear and cougar populations we sustainable with long season, baiting, trapping, etc. before the initiative. There could be unlimited bag limits and year around hunting and the boot hunting harvest would never reach those pre-initiative levels.

Falling populations are a function of take outpacing growth. The predator population has increased to a point that there needs to be a some take removed from the system, either in the form of predator removal, or hunting reduction in order to maintain the healthy populations we've historically had.  This is why the enviro's fight for no predator control, because it will eventually lead to a reduction in hunting. Restrict hunting enough and the sport will continue to fade out of existence. The more hunter numbers shrink, the higher the proportion of anti-hunting input. It's a snowball effect in the wrong direction.
I've been saying this since 1996 when the initiative passed.
"Restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens based on the actions of criminals and madmen will have no positive effect on the future acts of criminals and madmen. It will only serve to reduce individual rights and the very security of our republic." - Pianoman

Offline Humptulips

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2022, 05:03:26 PM »
An idea I have talked up with the Department for a number of years, trapping season on Cougar. The Commission has the power to do this without going to the Legislature. All they would need to do is reclassify cougar with the dual classification of big game/ furbearer and set a season. It would be cage traps only, but I believe it would be possible to catch cougar in a cage trap. Many units never reach their target harvest. Why not open those units to trapping? I had thought in the past if the Department would give a nod to it the Commission might listen.  I have pretty much gotten the cold shoulder from the Department.
With the current makeup of the Commission, I would have less hope. I think the idea still has merit though. Personally, I think anything that would increase the harvest of cougar would be a good thing. I'm not sure how many cougar might be taken this way but it is worth a try IMO.
Bruce Vandervort

Offline high_hunter

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2022, 05:55:03 PM »
I'd just seen this article and went to post it but am glad to see there is already constructive discussion around it.  I like Humptulops idea about the dual classification as furbearers.  The idea about unlimited boot hunting take is also appealing for predator management.

If not doing so already sportsmen need to continually voice our concerns and ideas to the politicians and WDFW board.

I'd read an article just the other day about concerns over cougar migration and lack of genetic diversity.  To combat it there are plans to install animal  overpasses..  Definitely not where I want my tax money spent unless there is research showing it benefits all game species as a whole.  If I can find it again will post for comments.   

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2022, 06:50:19 PM »
There is also the notion of "they can't do anything."  Seems to come up a bunch on a variety of topics.  What was WDFW's position on the initiative?  What voter education material did they put out?  There is almost always something that could be done, maybe it helps, maybe not but at least try.

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Re: What Already Knew About Why We Aren't Seeing Elk
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 07:36:47 PM »
Washington spews this BS voter crap.
Where's my 30 dollar car tabs,ohh ya it was voted in by the people,we can't do that.
The state does what it wants period. And the people get the shaft.
Two birds in the Bush is always better than one in the hand-that way you can always go to the Bush and hunt another day .conservation=Better hunting.
Wrote by hunter399

 


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