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Author Topic: Reloading Newbie velocity issues  (Read 4810 times)

Offline 10mmg

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Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« on: April 30, 2022, 08:45:54 AM »
I am reloading 6.5 creedmore with 129 nosler accubond LR with once fired nosler brass. Following the nosler book I am using fed 210 primers and RL15. My dad is trying to reload 7mm weatherby magnum using h4350 and 154 hornady. Both of us are using rcbs dies. Powder measure has been verified digitally and on a manual scale.

The issue is this. Our FPS is swinging all over the place. Sometimes as much as 125 fps. The chrono has been verified using factory nosler ammo. The factory stuff has a 7-9fps variation. The brass is cleaned and the primer pockets cleaned.

So my question is what could be causing the variation? Dad and I are using the same press. Any thought or ideas would be greatly appreciated as I dont want to keep wasting ammo.

Thanks

Offline h20hunter

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2022, 09:03:32 AM »
How uniformly accurate is your seating depth? To far from or to tight to the lands may be an issue if your seating depth is not consistent.  I'm no expert so just a thought. Neck tension maybe....to much or to little?

Offline buckfvr

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2022, 09:13:09 AM »
Variance of 125fps "to me" indicates a powder charge issue.  Until you can consistently get fps under control, I would weigh each charge individually on a small digital scale after calibrating it.  Load 5, fire and confirm.

If using standard dies and basic reloading technique neck tension should all be the same and unless you have a loose seating stem, seating depth should be uniform enough.

Also, Im assuming you are not mixing brass........

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2022, 09:33:49 AM »
Something isn't consistent.
What does accuracy look like.
Can't imagine too good.
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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2022, 09:35:23 AM »
Variance of 125fps "to me" indicates a powder charge issue.  Until you can consistently get fps under control, I would weigh each charge individually on a small digital scale after calibrating it.  Load 5, fire and confirm.

If using standard dies and basic reloading technique neck tension should all be the same and unless you have a loose seating stem, seating depth should be uniform enough.

Also, Im assuming you are not mixing brass........
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Offline Rainier10

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2022, 09:39:24 AM »
Tag so I can see what the final fix is.
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Offline bobcat

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2022, 09:50:25 AM »
Can you give us an example of what your actual velocity variation is? Because if it's more like 20 or 30 fps from shot to shot normally, that's entirely different than a 125 fps difference every time.

Are you cleaning the brass? Tumbling? If so, before resizing or after? Or both? What are you using for lube when you resize?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 10:13:34 AM by bobcat »

Offline GWP

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2022, 10:01:20 AM »
Factory ammo is new bulk ‘everything’ and ‘should’ be loaded to very close tolerances.
Your fired cases have conformed to your chamber and are slightly harder than they were from brand new. They have also stretched in length slightly.
Are you neck sizing only? You may be resizing too much.
There are many things to get to extreme tight FPS and accuracy that any one item may throw it off.
As someone stated, how is the accuracy? That is really all that matters if you are shooting at speeds that will reliably cause the bullet to perform as it should.
Be ‘realistic’ about the distance you are shooting, and capable of shooting.
Eliminating competition shooters, I have seen ‘maybe’ three shooters that were ‘actually’ capable of shooting truly long distances that they boasted about. Two were snipers in the military, so I would probably put them in with the competition shooters.
You can start chasing being ‘exact’, and while it can be fun, if it really does not matter to the accuracy, it may not be worth your time or worrying about.
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Offline callturner

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2022, 10:39:22 AM »
Are you copying the load fps the same as your factory loads ? I shoot one hole with IMR 4350. @ 100 yds. I also shoot Nosler brass.

Offline b23

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2022, 10:57:08 AM »
It is very possible, even likely, it's not just one big issue but rather 2 or 3 smaller issues. 

Depending on case size I've found inconsistent seating depth, particularly when you start getting close to the lands, to cause bigger ES numbers than being a slight bit off on powder charge.  Are you using a bullet comparator on your calipers or just measuring base to tip?  If you aren't using a bullet comparator you need to get one because measuring base to tip isn't a very accurate way to do it.

Also, how are you measuring your cases for sizing?  Again, get yourself a headspace comparator and start measuring your cases to shoulder datum and not just for overall length.  A loaded cartridge is essentially a pressure chamber and any change in the size of that pressure chamber will cause changes in the pressure curve which will result in velocity changes.

Another thing that's worth mentioning, make sure your primers aren't sitting proud or slightly raised when you measure any case with a primer in it because that'll wreak havoc with your numbers when you're measuring.

Making everything about your ammo as consistent as possible from round to round is what you're after.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2022, 11:02:37 AM by b23 »

Offline buckfvr

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2022, 11:06:48 AM »
He states "Reloading Newbie"......its most likely a simple problem.

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2022, 12:09:55 PM »
Two many variables and not enough information.  I would highly recommend finding and experienced re-loader close to you, and pick their brain one on one.  Lots of good advise on here but also a lot of assumptions based on the limited info.  It is likely an easy fix....if we could see your exact process. 

I will take a few stabs at possible problems...
1.  Mixed head stamp brass could could be the easy fix.  Make sure you are not shooting multiple head stamps
2.  Powder drop is not consistent, though 125 fps would indicate more then a couple tenths of a grain difference....usually
3.  Seating depth, though again, I wouldn't expect to see a spread in velocity of 125 fps if all are being seated with the same seating die. 
4.  If your full length sizing, your neck tension should be close.  The brass won't stretch enough in one firing to cause an issue in most cases, especially if they were factory to begin with. 


So.....the most likely culprits in my opinion are;  1.  You are not on a node and you are getting big fluctuations...combined with 2.  You are shooting to fast, not allowing your barrel to cool and seeing faster speeds with 3, 4, 5, etc. shots.....combined with 3.  your powder drop being slightly inconsistent (this is very normal for the standard powder drops as they can very 2-3 tenths either way with certain extruded powders. 

How did you go about finding the powder charge you ended on?  Did you ladder test....or use another method to find a node? 

Again, lots of variables....find an experienced reloader close and they will get you dialed.   :tup:

Offline 10mmg

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2022, 12:36:46 PM »
How uniformly accurate is your seating depth? To far from or to tight to the lands may be an issue if your seating depth is not consistent.  I'm no expert so just a thought. Neck tension maybe....to much or to little?

I measure the over all length of the factory loads vs my reloads and they are all within .001. The factory loads use the same bullet and weight as my reloads.

Offline 10mmg

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2022, 12:38:42 PM »
Variance of 125fps "to me" indicates a powder charge issue.  Until you can consistently get fps under control, I would weigh each charge individually on a small digital scale after calibrating it.  Load 5, fire and confirm.

If using standard dies and basic reloading technique neck tension should all be the same and unless you have a loose seating stem, seating depth should be uniform enough.

Also, Im assuming you are not mixing brass........

Brass is all nosler the 125 is across a 5 shot string with the average fluctuations being 25-50 fps round to round.

Offline zwickeyman

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2022, 12:47:44 PM »
You could also try the H4350, should work well for you in the CM. I use IMR4350 in mine with an ES of 15
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Offline HighlandLofts

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2022, 02:06:14 PM »
Something simple, there could be a few things affecting the various velocities. 
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Offline jasnt

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2022, 07:14:57 AM »
Where are you located? How much are you bumping shoulders back?
How many firings on the brass? Are you metering charges or weighing each charge, how many rounds through the rifle? Clean bore? Fouled? What chrono?  Using a lead sled? Off bags? Bipod? What distance do you intend to shoot? How is the accuracy?
Need a lot more info to get good info back
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Offline OltHunter

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2022, 07:49:38 AM »
These kind of posts are always hard to help on, so definitely finding someone/mentor to help out in person is the best.

If both you and your dad with 2 different setups are getting the same results, it's something in your process. If everything is right, it might be just as simple as your guns hate the powder/primer combo you are running. You should definitely try the H4350 in your 6.5, that is a great powder.

But, being that you are a newbie, let's start back at the start. What was your initial power charge ladder? You got some max powder charge, started 10% lower off that, and worked up in 0.X grain increments with 3x shots to max load and maybe 1 or 2 steps aboves. OCW is a popular method I've found in the hunting communities, but there are a few others. Hopefully you all didn't just pick a charge and load up a dozen or so.

You also measured your lands at what? And did you seat all your bullets -0.020 or more or to magazine length more off that measured by a comparator?

And neck tension on your resize was what? Should be in the -0.002 range as a starting point.

What are you resizing your shoulder to bump wise?

Also, when you seat, your seating die will not always put your bullets with a comparator at the exact same spot everytime, so need to measure each seat and adjust as necessary. If you are close to the lands or max powder or over, this could cause some variations.

Answering some of these questions could help, and if you can't answer some, then you're on the right track to finding out your issue.

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2022, 08:22:51 PM »
Switch to H4350 and toss those LR Accubond’s in the trash. You can thank me later.🙃🙃🙃
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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2022, 08:27:52 PM »
Switch to H4350 and toss those LR Accubond’s in the trash. You can thank me later.🙃🙃🙃

I do concur as it pertains to the accubond lr's.  Garbage in my opinion. 

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2022, 08:42:03 PM »
How uniformly accurate is your seating depth? To far from or to tight to the lands may be an issue if your seating depth is not consistent.  I'm no expert so just a thought. Neck tension maybe....to much or to little?

I measure the over all length of the factory loads vs my reloads and they are all within .001. The factory loads use the same bullet and weight as my reloads.

I have made a lot of copy cat rounds ,that copy factory rounds. Which sounds like your doing.
Switch powder maybe.
Some will tell ya you have to have a full case of powder.
That's not always true.
I don't load for creedmore .
Have you pulled a bullet out of a factory round and looked to see what the powder looked like.
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Offline NWShooter

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2022, 08:48:16 PM »
With H4350 and the 6.5 Creedmoor. One would be hard pressed to find a load/bullet combo that wouldn’t shoot.
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Offline 10mmg

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2022, 12:42:51 PM »
Where are you located? How much are you bumping shoulders back?
How many firings on the brass? Are you metering charges or weighing each charge, how many rounds through the rifle? Clean bore? Fouled? What chrono?  Using a lead sled? Off bags? Bipod? What distance do you intend to shoot? How is the accuracy?
Need a lot more info to get good info back
Located in Chelan, not sure what bumping shoulders backs means, weighing each charge on a calibrated digital scale, 200 rounds through the rifle, cleaned after each outing, Caldwell chrono, lead sled, for hunting no mare than 400 yards, for fun out to 800 if it is possible. With factory loads I am getting 1/2 moa  reloads are 1.5 moa.

I loaded 5 rounds each starting at 37 grains moving up to 39 grains in .5 grain increments. I am not sure what the objection to the AB LR is but is it all of them of just for reloading. Asking only because I am getting great groups and speeds from the factory ammo.  Is there a better bullet to try? I’ll give the H4350 a try. I started with the rl15 based on the nosler book.

If my brass oal is the same as factory and my reloaded ammo is the same oal as factory should that answer how it is loading into the rifle? Not sure how to adjust neck tension or should resizing. How does one adjust those things on the die? Do I lower where the die sits in my press?

Thanks for the feedback. I knew I wasn’t covering all the info so thank for the patients. If anyone is in the Chelan area and wants to mentor a couple of newbies that would be great.

Online jeffro

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2022, 01:19:49 PM »
I’ve never measured velocity, but only load one round to at a time the exactingly same specs.
As in once fired fired brass out of my gun! All the same brass….
Sized and necked
Good digital scale, double checked with balance, you may be shocked!

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Offline jasnt

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2022, 02:17:22 PM »
The velocity variable could in part be the chrono.  Not all.  That chrono has an accuracy of +/-2% if your shooting square through it.  The “screens” are so close together that even a slight angle can off set the timer causing velocity deviation.  If you were closer I’d be happy to show you the ropes.  Re15 can be a good performer but too temp sensitive for my liking.  As for seating depth and shoulder bump you’ll need to order some more tools.  Comparator kit is a good start
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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2022, 10:15:14 PM »
 :yeah:

That’s a start.
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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2022, 10:27:06 PM »
The velocity variable could in part be the chrono.  Not all.  That chrono has an accuracy of +/-2% if your shooting square through it.  The “screens” are so close together that even a slight angle can off set the timer causing velocity deviation.  If you were closer I’d be happy to show you the ropes.  Re15 can be a good performer but too temp sensitive for my liking.  As for seating depth and shoulder bump you’ll need to order some more tools.  Comparator kit is a good start
Last time I was out shooting.
Crono said one of my rounds was 4888 fps second.
All the other rounds around 3050.
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Offline jasnt

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2022, 04:51:23 AM »
The velocity variable could in part be the chrono.  Not all.  That chrono has an accuracy of +/-2% if your shooting square through it.  The “screens” are so close together that even a slight angle can off set the timer causing velocity deviation.  If you were closer I’d be happy to show you the ropes.  Re15 can be a good performer but too temp sensitive for my liking.  As for seating depth and shoulder bump you’ll need to order some more tools.  Comparator kit is a good start
Last time I was out shooting.
Crono said one of my rounds was 4888 fps second.
All the other rounds around 3050.
lighting can also cause some funky readings.  My old pro chrono had me chasing my tail till I accidentally shot it and ordered a magneto speed :chuckle:
Then I found out my es wasn’t as bad as I thought.
It worked well enough to fuel my passion till I was ready to upgrade 
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Offline 10mmg

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2022, 07:33:43 PM »
Update on this post. I switched to H4350 and got a comparator for my calipers. I found out I was not seating the bullet down far enough based on the comparator measurement against factory Nosler ammo. I loaded 41-43 grains of ammo in 5 round increments in 1/2 grain escalations. Factory ammo is giving me 1/2moa @ 2783 fps. After testing the reloads I am getting 1/2 moa and 2825 fps with 41 grains of H4350. It appears my issue was the powder and seating depth. Of just the seating depth or just the powder or both. Either way I am in business. My FPS variation is 8fps. Interestingly the 41.5 grain loads had a 70 fps variation and the 42.5 grain load at 2850fps had a 20fps variation. The 42.4 had the same group size as the 41 grain. The 41.5 grain was the worst group at 1.5 moa. 

Thanks for the tips everyone. Still curious on why the hate for ABLR bullets. They have killed a deer at 150yrds, hogs at 30 yrds, and antelope at 350yrds. Interested in feedback.

Offline dyhardhuntr

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2022, 08:32:24 PM »
Some good info on here. Like some have posted it’s hard to diagnose over the internet. Another thing to remember is that the loads they put in the book are “suggestions”. They also have a gun that those loads shoot good out of. It does not guarantee it will shoot out of your gun. I always start 5% below minimum and work up. It pays to be particular with reloading. It’s crazy what changing powders will do for your accuracy. My coworker is a bench rest shooter that has been reloading for over 40 years. He shoots with a guy that will load his powder to a certain weight and then cut his grains to trickle in the exact amount. Reloading is fun but can be aggravating. Glad you found your issue!

Offline jasnt

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2022, 08:58:59 PM »
Glad to hear it
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Offline GWP

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2022, 12:26:14 PM »
Great you got it figured out! That's a victory!

A lot of the factory loadings now are excellent, and can be difficult to copy. As a 50 year reloading guy, I remember the first time I shot factory loads that were as accurate as my reloads in 7x57, 7mm Mauser, .275 Rigby, what ever you want to call it.
I was 'sort of' disappointed and pretty happy about it at the same time.
Reloading can be fun and frustrating at the same time.
Wait until the most accurate load you have come up with for a firearm is the dirtiest burning powder you have ever used!  :bash:
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Offline mallard

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Re: Reloading Newbie velocity issues
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2022, 06:04:18 PM »
I found out I was not seating the bullet down far enough based on the comparator measurement against factory Nosler ammo.

Nice detective work and figuring it out. What is your final cartridge overall length?

 


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