Blues Elk Downward Spiral

[jackelope]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

https://nwsportsmanmag.com/more-on-elk-calf-woes-in-washingtons-blue-mountains-wdfws-investigations/

Calf survival is a bigger problem.
https://www.union-bulletin.com/sports/wire/monitoring-documents-high-mountain-lion-predation-of-blue-mountains-elk-some-suggest-limiting-hunting/article_cb8af486-6382-11ec-8a0f-57ed06ea672b.html

Tribal hunters have been killing bulls in there for years and years.
*Not saying the excess tribal elk killing is ok. Just saying it's not new and I don't personally think it's the cause of the current problem.

[LDennis24]

that tribal harvest has always been there even when the elk pop was booming. The tribes are shooting bulls and not calves. The cow to calf ratio is alarming

 
They are shooting big bulls from the road. Where are all the spikes? Where are all the cow calf pairs? Where are the bulls in the Watershed? I have had two different groups of guys draw a Watershed tag in the last five years and both were willing to shoot almost any bull that was a six point or better as they have never shot a bull elk before. They went home empty handed. It's a bigger issue than native harvest. If anything I would say native harvest is probably down from where it was ten yrs ago. 

[trophyhunt]

If it was down, it’s only because there are fewer bulls for them to shoot.

[hunter399]

Only if there was a way to get hunters to predator hunt,more than they hunt deer and elk.
Now that would be a solution I could hang my hat on.

[Taco280AI]

Help out if the natives focused on hunting wolves and sea lions... for traditional ceremonial purposes

[nwwanderer]

Know a place with a dozen plus branch antlered bulls about, a couple pushing 400.  Have not seen a cow/calf for weeks and part of the area is open to cow take muzzleloader.  It is way more than predators of any ilk.  These imported beasts are in trouble after 100+ years and the folks that brought them in can not see past their paperwork.

[jackelope]

You guys saw the Blues collared calf study, right? Like 80% of them killed by predators, mostly lions if I remember correctly?
I don’t want to sound like a know it all of biology, but in order to have adults, you have to have babies that turn into adults. If all the babies are getting killed by lions, we’re going to eventually run out of bulls to kill.

9 years ago I had 5 different lions on the same camera in the Blues. That’s not good!

[buckfvr]

Cats are the killing machines but how many of their kills get jacked by bear and wolf ?  Cats, I believe, are killing more and eating less which means they kill even more.

[trophyhunt]

I must be blind to the cats, I have spend hundreds of hours glassing those hill sides looking for spring bears, never seen a cat. I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T A BIG PROBLEM!!!  I believe they are a problem, It just baffles me that I haven't seen at least one of those b'tards.  Not having spring bear is the straw that breaks the camels back down there, it's a reflection of whats going on in our country, self inflicted wounds, done for a reason.

[pianoman9701]

I’m gonna get some heat for this one….but a lot of the issue is not necessarily predators. I have buddy who is one of only a few actual registered guides in the Washington blues, but will leave him unnamed. The problem is native harvest. He knows one individual that took 18 bulls in the 2021 season, all over 300”. This is a guy that if he said it, I believe him knowing his character. If that truly is the case I think the management is doomed between both predators and this issue.
For the record too…this is not slam to all native hunters. I know a lot who hunt for management, ethically, and are very aware of issues like this and even don’t agree with many of what others do. But,  when you have a populous, even just a few, that over harvest with no restrictions it can do as equal damage as a prominent overpopulate predator presence.

It is necessarily predators. Out of 125 calves collared, only 9 survived. 70% of monitored calf mortality is cougar kills. This means less than a 1/3 of  the needed calf survival rate is surviving the first year. That's completely unsustainable. Tags should be severely limited, maybe some of them only to those who fill a cougar tag. Cougar harvest limits need to be doubled.

[Woodchuck]

I must be blind to the cats, I have spend hundreds of hours glassing those hill sides looking for spring bears, never seen a cat. I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T A BIG PROBLEM!!!  I believe they are a problem, It just baffles me that I haven't seen at least one of those b'tards.  Not having spring bear is the straw that breaks the camels back down there, it's a reflection of whats going on in our country, self inflicted wounds, done for a reason.

Shoot, I saw a cougar a couple weeks back in the middle of a fairly well traveled, paved road, in broad daylight. There is a large working rock pit and several homes very close. They are a massive problem.
What I have seen with my own eyes, in the 21 years I have lived here is sickening. The elk are disappearing amazingly fast. All of my ideas to help would never fly in this state. Sad.

[2MANY]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

[LDennis24]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

Combined with dysentery

[pianoman9701]

If only liberals got hoof rot.

Combined with dysentery

Rabies is always a good choice.

[Timberstalker]

What are "calves?"