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Author Topic: Is there an elephant in the room  (Read 5954 times)

Offline trophyhunt

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2024, 11:09:47 AM »
It'san interesting question and I don't think it should be an elephant in the room regardless of the reasoning.  We should be able to discuss wildlife related issues.  I'm definitely on the fringe of this one but the first thing that jumps out is the ratio.  13:100 is not great,  not cause for panic but it's a reason you may want to pull back a little.  We would really have to take a deeper dive into age structure to get to root questions. 
Acknowledging that there is over 100 miles of elk fence in Yakima separating elk from their historic critical range is also key. This is not only an issue of marginal habitat but also the lack of escape refuge for predators.  This does not benefit the human harvest. There is also specific seasons (right now) where elk are damned for existence on certain landscapes.  According to your local farm bureau the population and intrusion is at near all time highs.
So I'll offer an overvalued  :twocents: .
Bull population is near minimum according to surveys (?)
Archery success is consistent. Predators play a key role, likely the driver however I would question that it's forcing a trend if other metrics are consistent. Tribal harvest seems consistent, admittedly with little knowledge on this. 
Sustainable is a great question.  Is state management sustainable? Is unlimited harvest of yearling bulls coupled with significant other harvest i.e. draw tags,  landowner tags, master hunters sustainable?
I'm not sure what the recipe for success is but I feel like few have been able to see the forest through the trees and accept that it's a shared resource. 
It's a critical time in this state and really beyond. We all must evolve with the changing dynamics.
Fantastic post.

I'd also add that I'm highly skeptical of the 13 to 100 cows. Yakima elk population continues to thrive. This year will likely be an all time historic high for our elk herds. Let us kill some Surplus cows and that bull to cow ratio will come into line nicely.
lots of word salad but, I wanna know how Tbar comes up with the native harvest REAL numbers?  Really?  Heís a native and doesnít even know what the native harvest is in the 346 unit.  Even our spokesperson for the yakama tribe refuses to give us solid numbersÖ wonder why. 

What does Tbar have to do with the Yakama tribe and how would you expect him to know numbers? Just because he's native? Where did you see him come up with any harvest numbers at all?
Probably one of the most logical comments in this thread really.
The Yakima herd was brought up, and there is no records that anyone knows of when it comes to the yakama tribal kills.
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Offline trophyhunt

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2024, 11:11:46 AM »
Long story short...

I crunched a bunch of WDFW numbers last year going way back with the Yakima herd. Bull/Cow ratios have bounced back rapidly from numbers much worse than 18:100.

I agree with some on here that 18:100 might not even be accurate.

The calf survival numbers are the problem when you really dig into it. My research led me to believe that predators are the problem. Not state or native hunters.

They could definitely give us more bull permits.

I'll look for that data I collected and share it on here.
I'd be very interested in that data and curious where you found ANY data at all on Predator based calf mortality as I've never been able to find any. Admittedly my google-fu is not the strongest  :chuckle:
There was a study in the Blue Mountains a few years back.

https://nwsportsmanmag.com/some-details-from-year-2-of-blues-elk-calf-mortality-study-out/#:~:text=In%20response%20to%20that%20dangerously,4%20to%20allow%20hunters%20to
yes but this discussion is about the Yakima pmu not the blues.
:yeah:
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Offline time2hunt

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2024, 11:13:55 AM »
Local 3482

Offline Special T

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2024, 11:27:23 AM »
Something I would like to insert into the discussion. How much do we trust the department and the anti hunting agendas being pushed? The commission, certain politicians, and some employees  are facilitating anti predator control.

I KNOW some tribes are doing BETTER work than the WDFW.Why? Because they are unencumbered  by the political trappings we are. Why would they share information except with each other? Unless it solves a problem I wouldn't. I still find it frustrating like everyone else.
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Offline hughjorgan

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2024, 01:50:46 PM »
I donít trust our commission to follow the science before their eyes, the biologists from what Iíve seen present at the meetings are very professional and have made a good case based on science and data. Iíve personally met and worked out of the same building as one of our Biologists; he is a big time hunter and fisherman. I personally donít buy the department is pushing or full of a bunch of anti hunters. If that was the case we wouldnít see wildlife for all and Washington wildlife first pushing their extremist minority view through appointments to the commission.

When it comes to co management information should flow both ways. Tribes are not the elephant in the room because of their take or for any other reason. But if we want sound wildlife management it makes sense to share harvest data to best manage the resource.

Offline Slamadoo

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2024, 01:58:36 PM »
Having trouble with my attachment. Help!

Offline Special T

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2024, 02:27:51 PM »
I donít trust our commission to follow the science before their eyes, the biologists from what Iíve seen present at the meetings are very professional and have made a good case based on science and data. Iíve personally met and worked out of the same building as one of our Biologists; he is a big time hunter and fisherman. I personally donít buy the department is pushing or full of a bunch of anti hunters. If that was the case we wouldnít see wildlife for all and Washington wildlife first pushing their extremist minority view through appointments to the commission.

When it comes to co management information should flow both ways. Tribes are not the elephant in the room because of their take or for any other reason. But if we want sound wildlife management it makes sense to share harvest data to best manage the resource.

The department doesn't have to be a majority of folks that are anti hunters. It only needs a few folks that follow the Wilgus predator science. A handful of employees can handicap even the director, whom I think is a sportsmen ally. I too know and have talked to some great WDFW employees who got the issue or problem I was discussing. Unfortunately they had no pull because they were a cog in the machine... controlled by the best science that was directed by ignorant or disingenuous employees.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline hughjorgan

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2024, 03:32:13 PM »
Having trouble with my attachment. Help!

Did you resize it?

Offline hughjorgan

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2024, 03:34:41 PM »
I donít trust our commission to follow the science before their eyes, the biologists from what Iíve seen present at the meetings are very professional and have made a good case based on science and data. Iíve personally met and worked out of the same building as one of our Biologists; he is a big time hunter and fisherman. I personally donít buy the department is pushing or full of a bunch of anti hunters. If that was the case we wouldnít see wildlife for all and Washington wildlife first pushing their extremist minority view through appointments to the commission.

When it comes to co management information should flow both ways. Tribes are not the elephant in the room because of their take or for any other reason. But if we want sound wildlife management it makes sense to share harvest data to best manage the resource.

The department doesn't have to be a majority of folks that are anti hunters. It only needs a few folks that follow the Wilgus predator science. A handful of employees can handicap even the director, whom I think is a sportsmen ally. I too know and have talked to some great WDFW employees who got the issue or problem I was discussing. Unfortunately they had no pull because they were a cog in the machine... controlled by the best science that was directed by ignorant or disingenuous employees.

Valid point.

Offline Slamadoo

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2024, 04:48:42 PM »
Bull:Cow and Calf:Cow ratios. Yakima Herd.

Offline dreamingbig

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2024, 05:16:55 PM »
Those calf recruitments donít surprise me at all.  No hound hunting of cougars and no baiting of bears.  This is exactly what WE all knew would happen.  More predators and higher calf/fawn mortality.


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Offline Slamadoo

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2024, 05:40:55 PM »
I'll share my other half (predator) of the research tomorrow.

Offline Dan-o

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2024, 06:14:49 PM »
Bull:Cow and Calf:Cow ratios. Yakima Herd.

Thanks!

I'd seen this before but  I couldn't find it again.
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I wonder how many people will touch their nose to their screen trying to read this...

Offline Tbar

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2024, 06:30:46 PM »
Bull:Cow and Calf:Cow ratios. Yakima Herd.

Thanks for this @Slamadoo . Where were these numbers derived? Feed lot survey? Aerial?
I think this supports the thought of "in Karl we rust", the herd is in decent shape.  I'm still not sure what would drive the tag reduction but an outside assessment would really say there is no elephant in the room and that the herd is stable. Maybe trying to avoid boom bust management?

Offline dreamingbig

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Re: Is there an elephant in the room
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2024, 06:52:04 PM »
The tag reduction started about 5 years ago with no real explanation.

I last drew a bull permit in a Yakima unit in 2017 with over 125 archery permits.  This year there is 4 permits. Yet the over all herd numbers have barely budged.

North of a 95% reduction.  They still have the 2 quality rifle permits for the same unit.  Makes you scratch your head more than a little.


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