Central Washington Deer Population

[boneaddict]

I had this conversation the other day. I agree, a lot of deer got smacked on the road.  They are proposing a wildlife bridge at a crossing between Twisp and Winthrop.   That place has always been a tremendous crossing.  People knew it and slowed down.   Now everyone zips through in their SUVs because they aren’t used to stopping or slowing down for deer.  There are so few deer, people are becoming less cautious or watchful.   Traffic is way worse, people way worse, their damn dogs way worse.

[CarbonHunter]

Just the shear volume of vehicles, semi trucks and trains today at high speeds is so much more than it was in the 40’s, 50’s & 60’s and when those vehicles were moving back then they moved at half the speed.

Same goes for birds and other critters out there. Way less today and it’s not just game species that are affected.

[bigmacc]

Whats sad is now if people see a herd of 20 deer in a field they run to Huntwa and report all is well, glory days are back.   What they are clueless about is that field used to have 350 in it, and the field next to it, and the field next to that one.   No exaggeration, I'd go shed hunting and count literally a thousand deer in a basin.   Now there might be 5.   I'm not even that frickin' old.  I used to go hunt before I had to ride my bike into work.  I'd look over more than 250deer  in a morning on the ridge outside of town on public land during hunting season.   I would count more deer in less than an hour than Fitkin counted this year in three days on prime winter range.   Just looking at trails and tracks.   Its crazy how a snow covered ridge used to be crisscrossed with game trails, now just snow

Spot on bone. And your exactly right, you are not exaggerating.

[Skyvalhunter]

Those over or under wildlife passes can be spendy. They also have to fence along the highway to steer the deer to the crossings and provide escarpment so that those on the road have a one way out. They work well along the AZ/UT border but cost $$$. Salting the roads doesn't help as that attracts the deer to the highways.

[CarbonHunter]

I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.

[bigmacc]

I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.

And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.

[timberfaller]

Having lived in the Valley for approx. 35 years, the demise of the "herds" started long before Fitkin was around.  The big herds I remember started to decline the year the "Game" dept. decided "Doe's" needed removed so to get "their" perceived notion of the perfect buck to doe ratio.  Oh and it was only going to take 3 years and they would "stop" the doe killings.  NOW if you know anything about "animal husbandry" Killing off the number that they did(just in those 3 years), removed a lot of "lead does".  They are the ones who knew where the winter ranges were.  Beginning in the mid 80's and into the 90's a lot of winter ranges HAD NO deer so up. Hummmm wonder why??  As a faller, I could tell you all kinds of interesting wildlife story's, but now is not the time.

I've said my peace numerous times in the past here on HW, and as a logger and rancher, I've seen the decline.  Mis-management is the biggest problem facing wildlife in this state, allowing wolves to be re-introduced, NOT protecting winter range habitat in land purchases(Big Valley Ranch), allowing "lazy"(walk off ten feet for a road) people to feed deer in the winter. Thinking alfalfa is what deer need to feed on(require woody fiber in diet)to be healthy.  Don't get me started on the "3 point or better" fiasco", even the "game warden's" I worked around and with, were against it.  Another animal husbandry issue.

FYI, the fields in front of our ranch house would have up to 80-100 head of deer in them, both muley's and whitetail, 1982.  When I left, those field were lucky to have 20,1996. You could travel the whole length of the ranch and count many more.  I won't tell you how many moose and elk were there!!  Of course this is before the WDFW took over.  I and my friends and family members always got a laugh when we'd see or talk to out of the area "hunters" who would make comments about "well the reports by WDFW in our newspapers and radio shows, said the valley is the state's best area to hunt, lots of critters"  Living in East Wenatchee now, I still hear the same story's.

Do I have all the answers NO, but I do know where and who are the "problems".  I read the MVN every week, and just shake my head as to where the valley has GONE.  I don't think it will ever be back, especially with who in charge in Olympia.  Just research "jingles" problems with a couple of local women and his trap lines!!!  Should have been jail time for what they did, but WDFW just slapped their hands.  The department hasn't learned anything, even from the days of hound hunting getting banned "we are going to become pro-active instead of re-active" doesn't look like it to me!!

[OutHouse]

It was not a positive experience to talk to a guy who showed me old pictures of herds of deer outside Naches and west of Tieton.   

I’ll have to dig up some pics in the upper Methow in the 60’s and the 70’s. Jaw will drop!

Oh ya they will. 

A guy who has since passed but whose mother owned a substantial fraction of Mazama at one point showed me at least a 25 inch wide mule deer rack he had and he told me he could get one of those every year if he just "tried hard". And he said he was not that great of a hunter.   

I and others believe that for sure. Remember the story I told on here years ago about the motor homes parked in a big circle in one of the big migrations corridors in the Methow back in the early 70’s, they had a pole full of bucks that were unbelievable, the weather hit up high and they killed them all sitting around their fire sipping whiskey! It was shortly after that my dad started advocating for some of the roads to be gated. Many conversations and rides with Game guys and bios. My dad said the herd would eventually be slaughtered if some of those roads were left open with the amount of new hunters after the North cascades highway was open. After what’s happened to that valley since it did open, I must admit he was right. Not even mentioning the predator issues.

That was back in the day when we had a “Game department”, that herd was at the top of the totem pole back then, job 1.

Some probably remember those days, folks would return home and say “there’s deer every where over there”. IMHO that pass was the valleys demise as far as hunting goes and for the plain ole sleepy feeling you got when you were there. Relaxing, cattle, logging, orchards, etc. It was one of those “best kept secrets”. No more.

I think I do remember that Bigmacc! That same fellow I was referencing said the same thing--the pass opened up and it has never been the same since. Kind of off topic but that same fellow told be that Ted Bundy drove the governor or some big wig over the pass right after it opened!

[OutHouse]

I think a lot of people underestimate the damage to herds caused by road kill. Once these highways and passes got cut through the land and everyone started driving 70mph the shear number of kills was exponential. Then add in hunting, poaching, habitat loss and predators. Hard to say if we’ll ever see herds like we used to.

True. I was up there for Christmas and one jumped the guard rail and I hit her as soon as she hit the highway. I could do nothing about it and felt really bad. I talked to a guy who went and kept the meat. I was in my mom's car.

[bigmacc]

Having lived in the Valley for approx. 35 years, the demise of the "herds" started long before Fitkin was around.  The big herds I remember started to decline the year the "Game" dept. decided "Doe's" needed removed so to get "their" perceived notion of the perfect buck to doe ratio.  Oh and it was only going to take 3 years and they would "stop" the doe killings.  NOW if you know anything about "animal husbandry" Killing off the number that they did(just in those 3 years), removed a lot of "lead does".  They are the ones who knew where the winter ranges were.  Beginning in the mid 80's and into the 90's a lot of winter ranges HAD NO deer so up. Hummmm wonder why??  As a faller, I could tell you all kinds of interesting wildlife story's, but now is not the time.

I've said my peace numerous times in the past here on HW, and as a logger and rancher, I've seen the decline.  Mis-management is the biggest problem facing wildlife in this state, allowing wolves to be re-introduced, NOT protecting winter range habitat in land purchases(Big Valley Ranch), allowing "lazy"(walk off ten feet for a road) people to feed deer in the winter. Thinking alfalfa is what deer need to feed on(require woody fiber in diet)to be healthy.  Don't get me started on the "3 point or better" fiasco", even the "game warden's" I worked around and with, were against it.  Another animal husbandry issue.

FYI, the fields in front of our ranch house would have up to 80-100 head of deer in them, both muley's and whitetail, 1982.  When I left, those field were lucky to have 20,1996. You could travel the whole length of the ranch and count many more.  I won't tell you how many moose and elk were there!!  Of course this is before the WDFW took over.  I and my friends and family members always got a laugh when we'd see or talk to out of the area "hunters" who would make comments about "well the reports by WDFW in our newspapers and radio shows, said the valley is the state's best area to hunt, lots of critters"  Living in East Wenatchee now, I still hear the same story's.

Do I have all the answers NO, but I do know where and who are the "problems".  I read the MVN every week, and just shake my head as to where the valley has GONE.  I don't think it will ever be back, especially with who in charge in Olympia.  Just research "jingles" problems with a couple of local women and his trap lines!!!  Should have been jail time for what they did, but WDFW just slapped their hands.  The department hasn't learned anything, even from the days of hound hunting getting banned "we are going to become pro-active instead of re-active" doesn't look like it to me!!

I 100 percent agree with you about the doe tags, never should have happened and shouldn’t happen today in that valley, whether it be seniors or youth. Let them shoot any buck but lay off the does.

I will defend a few of the old “game Department” folks from back in the day, most of them were not on board with the “doe shoots” either, I remember my cousin who was a big wig with Idaho F and G back in the day that sometimes after “killer” winters” some doe thinning may need to happen, especially if the feed and browse took a beating. I remember he said it helped out the herd in general for a couple years to cut back on starvation. This WDFW just keeps issuing doe tags.

I’m sure it’s all about the money at this point cause it sure as heck isn’t about rebuilding that herd, they’ve shown that by all the song and dance concerning predators including the wolf fiasco, not to mention bogus herd counts.

[ghosthunter]

Having lived in the Valley for approx. 35 years, the demise of the "herds" started long before Fitkin was around.  The big herds I remember started to decline the year the "Game" dept. decided "Doe's" needed removed so to get "their" perceived notion of the perfect buck to doe ratio.  Oh and it was only going to take 3 years and they would "stop" the doe killings.  NOW if you know anything about "animal husbandry" Killing off the number that they did(just in those 3 years), removed a lot of "lead does".  They are the ones who knew where the winter ranges were.  Beginning in the mid 80's and into the 90's a lot of winter ranges HAD NO deer so up. Hummmm wonder why??  As a faller, I could tell you all kinds of interesting wildlife story's, but now is not the time.

I've said my peace numerous times in the past here on HW, and as a logger and rancher, I've seen the decline.  Mis-management is the biggest problem facing wildlife in this state, allowing wolves to be re-introduced, NOT protecting winter range habitat in land purchases(Big Valley Ranch), allowing "lazy"(walk off ten feet for a road) people to feed deer in the winter. Thinking alfalfa is what deer need to feed on(require woody fiber in diet)to be healthy.  Don't get me started on the "3 point or better" fiasco", even the "game warden's" I worked around and with, were against it.  Another animal husbandry issue.

FYI, the fields in front of our ranch house would have up to 80-100 head of deer in them, both muley's and whitetail, 1982.  When I left, those field were lucky to have 20,1996. You could travel the whole length of the ranch and count many more.  I won't tell you how many moose and elk were there!!  Of course this is before the WDFW took over.  I and my friends and family members always got a laugh when we'd see or talk to out of the area "hunters" who would make comments about "well the reports by WDFW in our newspapers and radio shows, said the valley is the state's best area to hunt, lots of critters"  Living in East Wenatchee now, I still hear the same story's.

Do I have all the answers NO, but I do know where and who are the "problems".  I read the MVN every week, and just shake my head as to where the valley has GONE.  I don't think it will ever be back, especially with who in charge in Olympia.  Just research "jingles" problems with a couple of local women and his trap lines!!!  Should have been jail time for what they did, but WDFW just slapped their hands.  The department hasn't learned anything, even from the days of hound hunting getting banned "we are going to become pro-active instead of re-active" doesn't look like it to me!!

I 100 percent agree with you about the doe tags, never should have happened and shouldn’t happen today in that valley, whether it be seniors or youth. Let them shoot any buck but lay off the does.

I will defend a few of the old “game Department” folks from back in the day, most of them were not on board with the “doe shoots” either, I remember my cousin who was a big wig with Idaho F and G back in the day that sometimes after “killer” winters” some doe thinning may need to happen, especially if the feed and browse took a beating. I remember he said it helped out the herd in general for a couple years to cut back on starvation. This WDFW just keeps issuing doe tags.

I’m sure it’s all about the money at this point cause it sure as heck isn’t about rebuilding that herd, they’ve shown that by all the song and dance concerning predators including the wolf fiasco, not to mention bogus herd counts.

For seniors in Twisp area last year instead of doe they gave any buck. Didn’t do any good never saw a buck. Over 65 special draw.

[timberfaller]

Not surprising, went up a couple of weekends ago. Saw the most deer in quite awhile on that trip!!  5 doe's, up from 2 doe's the previous trip.  Used to be a gauntlet driving past Pateros all the way to Mazama!

[CarbonHunter]

I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.

And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.

Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.

There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.

[Mtnwalker]

I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.

And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.

Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.

There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.

Habitat encroachment, roads everywhere, uncrossable manmade barriers, rural development and recreational pressure all work in favor of predators and put the ungulates at a disadvantage. The anti-hunting argument of "leave them alone and they'll naturally self-regulate over time" doesn't hold water, as the modern landscape isn't natural. One could argue since humans have affected their habitat so greatly it is now our duty to manage predators.

[bigmacc]

I forgot about the salt on the roads attracting them to the death lanes. That is something else that wasn’t there 50-70 years ago when the numbers were so high.

And let’s not forget what else wasn’t there 50-70 years ago, an exploding population of cats and bears and the darling of them, all as far as WDFW is concerned ever growing packs of wolves. Everyone knows one cat kills around 50 deer per year, now multiple that by hundreds of cats possibly in that valley(no one really knows)and that’s a hell of a loss every year and that’s not counting what the increasing population of bears have done to the fawn crop over the last 20 years and yes, now throw in wolves, add all those losses together over the last 20-30 years and there’s the number 1 reason this herd has tanked and can’t fight their way back. My opinion.

Predators and prey will self regulate over time. If you go back 200 years ago before the area was settled there was cats, wolves, wolverines, black and grizzly bears and there was far more wildlife than there has ever been since settlement occurred. Yellowstone is a good example of this, it took 30 years after wolves were reintroduced but it’s finally taking shape.

There is one new factor that wasn’t there 200 years ago and that is domestic animals that the predators can feed on when the prey numbers are low and that is why hunting needs to be a tool used to manage predators. Not that the libs will ever understand that though.

I do overwhelmingly agree that predators need to be hunted along with upping quotas and extending seasons on predators along with a “hound hunting window”, even if the hound hunting is a draw hunt, like they do with the quality deer tags. I also agree that the libs within the WDFW and in our state govt will “never understand that”.