Eastern Elk Management

[Longfield1]

I’ve been seriously hunting elk with a bow for a couple years now in Idaho. I’ve also taken a few online classes that give me a little insight on elk hunting that I’ve never thought about. Specifically, why is the eastern side of the state specifically the Yakima herd managed for age class? Spike only or true spike only means a lot of old bulls die of natural causes and go to waste. The big bull permits might as well be 0 it’s so low. And me as a late hunter would be better off putting points into a lottery ticket instead of trying to catch up.

How long has eastern been spike only? I feel like some hunters and the commission at the time wanted to manage the herds for big antlers instead of opportunities for regular folk.

I’ve read parts of the North American elk book put out by Wyoming years ago and they have quite a few interesting studies. One of them was a 3 year study of changing the management plan to open up any bull in a certain area. Their objective was to see the effect it would have on the herd. They found out at the end that yes there were less big  old bulls but that the herd health did not have a noticeable impact on the population. That younger bulls were still doing the job and that opportunities for regular hunters was much higher.
One of the long term questions was if mostly younger bulls were doing the breeding how would the herd social structure change as well as younger bulls would usually breed cows later than big bulls so calves would be a little younger going into the following winter. I may have gotten some minor details mixed up but that was the gist of it.
So was there a time in Washington when the eastern side wasn’t spike only?

[steeleywhopper]

I remember when 3point minimum on deer and spike only went into effect in the Blues. I believe it was only supposed to be a 3 year deal and here we are now. Pretty sure that was in 1994 or 1995. The "true spike" rule is one that just baffles me and really cannot for the life of me see the good it's doing or has done other than put a bunch of 1x2 elk on the ground to waste.

[RC]

Spikes are for us and the branch bulls are for the tribes.  I don't think a lot of the old bulls are dying of natural causes...

[Longfield1]

Spikes are for us and the branch bulls are for the tribes.  I don't think a lot of the old bulls are dying of natural causes...

After I posted this I thought why else would it be managed and immediately thought about the tribes. Why wouldn’t they want the biggest bulls for only them and not normal hunters. Must of been a behind the scenes deal. Just really unfortunate but in reality, that makes the most sense. If it was hunters wanted bigger elk then they got screwed with point creep and lack of tags. If they gave out 100 or so big bull tags a year that would be better but I think observatory had 1 big bull tag lol.

[Kingofthemountain83]

It really doesn't make sense to me either... I read the Yakima herd is healthy and at management goals... Muzzy in Cowichie got 2 quality any bull tags this year... I seen 12 branch bulls within 400 yards on opening day...

[time2hunt]

It’s to manage people also we have way more hunter than ever also trying to kill a bull. If you turn it to a open to all season you would decimate your herd.


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[nwhunter]

Central Wa elk herds could handle more permits given out but tribal harvest is an unknown number every year so I think that’s a big reason they don’t …YTC has loads of elk and it wasn’t even an option to hunt .. Definitely can’t go back to general over the counter it would be wrecked in one season…

[addicted1]

Because people want to hunt every year, even if it means low success and lots of hunters. Versus a draw system that would allow you to hunt every couple years at best.

[str8meat]

There’s 1.3 elk hunters for every 1 elk in the state of Washington, we have to set hunters up for failure. That came right from the commissioners mouth. So would it be easy to state they being the department of screw everything up is over selling their elk herds and deer herds? Perhaps since the wildlife is an assets like a herd of black angus cattle are to a rancher, then a loan can be taken out on the asset. So did the state take out loans using the wildlife as collateral? Hence the same regulations for 30 plus years with no change. I know this is far fetched and the regular public will never get the truth out of a government official or state employee. So since the state owns the wildlife, our hunting license and tags are the bill of sale so to speak from the state to possess the wildlife, then how is this not a plausible idea that the state has taken loans out against the wildlife, over selling the herd numbers by not limiting tag sales and we the people get to pay the loans back by non stop license sales and poor regulations setting up failure.  Although many hunters may only get to hunt elk every 5-10 years in other states with draw only regulations, some even longer. So do you want to hunt spikes every year with a otc tag or wait years to hunt an elk? Classic case of what don’t ya want.

[trophyhunt]

There is no real management when the tribes can do what they want, and this state is not about to ruffle the (eagle) feathers of the tribes.  Zero limits on deer and elk, and a few bad apples take real advantage of that.   I've always said, OPEN it up to ANY elk, otc or have 500 permits for it.  Once the elk are so far gone, the tribes will be forced to set some rules on themselves.  I'm not kidding at all on this.

[nwwanderer]

More than 30 years for spike only in the SE, any elk, OTC in the NE and those elk have higher calf survival.  Connected?  Complicated, certainly not directly.

[NOCK NOCK]

There is really no plausible reason why more branched permits could not be given out, plenty of them die every year by old age.

Jerry does have a valid perspective IMHO. It would prolly work, but would take quite a few years to get back to any kind of "normal" hunting.

[Henrydog]

I am pretty sure OTC Spike only started in 93, or 94.  About the time dogs were banned for Cougar and Bear and I676 was the first knock at the wall for our gun rights.  Draw your own conclusions.    Putting my tin foil hat back on.

[Pathfinder101]

I think the "spike only" management plan stems from three things; too many hunters, not enough elk, and WDFW wants to keep selling elk tags OTC to everyone who will buy one (because WA hunters kind of demand it). 
I don't think there is anything nefarious about it.  Like you said; there are more elk hunters than there are elk.  I don't think that is going to change.  The only way to sell that many tags, but limit the bull harvest so that it doesn't dip into the carrying capacity is to say "You can have a tag, but you can only shoot a spike". Spike elk are generally easy to identify (even for novice hunters), so it's not a hard policy to enforce (for the most part). 
The only other option would be to change all elk hunting to a draw system.  That would probably manage the elk herds better, but would ruin all those Elk Camp traditions that people have been partaking in for 100 years in WA. 
As for gobs of big bulls dying of old age... probably not.  Like was said earlier; I think the tribes take care of that "problem" for the most part.   

[ShedHead20]

As someone going into the 2026 WA draw with 17 quality elk points and 18 bull points, I would %100 percent loose them all just to go to a draw system that has no points, liberal tag allocations, longer seasons, and the chance to hunt big bulls with any weapon every 2-4 years. I would not hesitate to do the same for mule deer.
Ive always thought to appease all the high point holders (because we all know the guys to complain about “Oh I have all these points cant draw a tag, this state sucks, blah, blah, blah, even though I only apply for the most sought after units in the state with a rifle with almost zero draw odds) that a points cut off would be established in the first couple years of the new draw only system. Meaning, guys with, for example, 15 points and above would get to keep their points in the draw and then guys with less automatically go to zero points and stay that way. After a few years, the guys who kept their points will have much higher chances to draw and will get phased out. Kinda like grandfathering in high point holders. Once a guy drew a tag with points, the next year he would be at zero and stay at zero forever just like everyone else.
This way, the people who have been applying for decades can actually get their tags and keep some hunters happy. Then, after 5-10 years with the new system, everyone would be at a true level playing field with ZERO points. One name – One Chance.

[Longfield1]

One question kinda out there.

How can WDFW even possibly hope to manage the elk herd effectively and know if certain efforts are having impact without at least knowing how many elk the tribes yank out of there every year. It seems to me that they have no clue and just go with the most conservative approach every year. If that’s the way it’s gonna be seems like they could fire some bean counters and unnecessary staff and hire more wardens to atleast stem poaching and maintaining a presence.

[ShedHead20]

I believe the tribes have no obligation to exchange harvest reports with WDFW. I think some tribes do in fact have regular harvest data reports with WDFW, but most do not. There is really no way of knowing the tribal harvest. I have seen pictures of native camps in the blues from the last 5 years that have more branched antler bulls hanging in their camp, then there are branched antler tags available to draw for the three GMU's in that area combined for whitey. Or when tribal members are hunting pregnant cows in December, January, and February; each one of those kills are two elk.   

[buglebuster]

Or when tribal members are hunting pregnant cows in December, January, and February; each one of those kills are two elk.

I’m not siding with the tribal overharvest at all, but this is no different than killing them anytime after September by anyone else with a cow tag.

[ghosthunter]

As someone going into the 2026 WA draw with 17 quality elk points and 18 bull points, I would %100 percent loose them all just to go to a draw system that has no points, liberal tag allocations, longer seasons, and the chance to hunt big bulls with any weapon every 2-4 years. I would not hesitate to do the same for mule deer.
Ive always thought to appease all the high point holders (because we all know the guys to complain about “Oh I have all these points cant draw a tag, this state sucks, blah, blah, blah, even though I only apply for the most sought after units in the state with a rifle with almost zero draw odds) that a points cut off would be established in the first couple years of the new draw only system. Meaning, guys with, for example, 15 points and above would get to keep their points in the draw and then guys with less automatically go to zero points and stay that way. After a few years, the guys who kept their points will have much higher chances to draw and will get phased out. Kinda like grandfathering in high point holders. Once a guy drew a tag with points, the next year he would be at zero and stay at zero forever just like everyone else.
This way, the people who have been applying for decades can actually get their tags and keep some hunters happy. Then, after 5-10 years with the new system, everyone would be at a true level playing field with ZERO points. One name – One Chance.

In my opinion, going to draw only for Mule deer or elk will kill hunting period.
Yeah you can point to other states but they are not Washington. We barley have enough hunters now to ward off anti hunters efforts.
Going to draw only eliminates family and buddy hunts. And reduces hunters.
And the thought that you  are going to draw a tag every five years is wishful thinking. More like once or twice in your life depending on age.

Washington is one of the fastest growing states in the USA in population, and the majority coming here are not hunters. Draws cater to folks who want to hunt trophies. I am a meat hunter if I never kill a big bull fine. Everyone I know is a meat hunter. Those who want trophies are not hunting this state.

I don’t know what the tribes kill, I have given up worrying about it. There is not a darn thing you can do about the tribes. Whining about the tribes is just wasted effort.

We could have our  deer herds and elk herds back if we had any kind of good management.

We could improve herd odds across the board with some effort and some personal restraint.
By:

Zero cow or doe tags state wide.
Pick westside or east side for deer and elk. Spread hunters out.
Pick mule deer, black tail, or whitetail. Hunt your choice and done. Spread hunters out.
Zero multi season tags.
Zero use of Atv any where a pick up cannot travel.
Pick early or late hunts not both.
Get rid of Three point rule for mule deer.
All Predator hunting open state wide, no quotas .
Restrict winter use of motorized any thing in winter feeding grounds. December till Spring.
Pressure the governor to install a WDFW commission that supports the North American Model of Wildlife Management.

[Kingofthemountain83]

Or when tribal members are hunting pregnant cows in December, January, and February; each one of those kills are two elk.

I’m not siding with the tribal overharvest at all, but this is no different than killing them anytime after September by anyone else with a cow tag.

   The cows get bred in Sep-Oct... So any cow shot during September may be pregnant, October more than not, and by the time rifle season rolls in you can almost garauntee it...

[Humptulips]

As someone going into the 2026 WA draw with 17 quality elk points and 18 bull points, I would %100 percent loose them all just to go to a draw system that has no points, liberal tag allocations, longer seasons, and the chance to hunt big bulls with any weapon every 2-4 years. I would not hesitate to do the same for mule deer.
Ive always thought to appease all the high point holders (because we all know the guys to complain about “Oh I have all these points cant draw a tag, this state sucks, blah, blah, blah, even though I only apply for the most sought after units in the state with a rifle with almost zero draw odds) that a points cut off would be established in the first couple years of the new draw only system. Meaning, guys with, for example, 15 points and above would get to keep their points in the draw and then guys with less automatically go to zero points and stay that way. After a few years, the guys who kept their points will have much higher chances to draw and will get phased out. Kinda like grandfathering in high point holders. Once a guy drew a tag with points, the next year he would be at zero and stay at zero forever just like everyone else.
This way, the people who have been applying for decades can actually get their tags and keep some hunters happy. Then, after 5-10 years with the new system, everyone would be at a true level playing field with ZERO points. One name – One Chance.

In my opinion, going to draw only for Mule deer or elk will kill hunting period.
Yeah you can point to other states but they are not Washington. We barley have enough hunters now to ward off anti hunters efforts.
Going to draw only eliminates family and buddy hunts. And reduces hunters.
And the thought that you  are going to draw a tag every five years is wishful thinking. More like once or twice in your life depending on age.

Washington is one of the fastest growing states in the USA in population, and the majority coming here are not hunters. Draws cater to folks who want to hunt trophies. I am a meat hunter if I never kill a big bull fine. Everyone I know is a meat hunter. Those who want trophies are not hunting this state.

I don’t know what the tribes kill, I have given up worrying about it. There is not a darn thing you can do about the tribes. Whining about the tribes is just wasted effort.

We could have our  deer herds and elk herds back if we had any kind of good management.

We could improve herd odds across the board with some effort and some personal restraint.
By:

Zero cow or doe tags state wide.
Pick westside or east side for deer and elk. Spread hunters out.
Pick mule deer, black tail, or whitetail. Hunt your choice and done. Spread hunters out.
Zero multi season tags.
Zero use of Atv any where a pick up cannot travel.
Pick early or late hunts not both.
Get rid of Three point rule for mule deer.
All Predator hunting open state wide, no quotas .
Restrict winter use of motorized any thing in winter feeding grounds. December till Spring.
Pressure the governor to install a WDFW commission that supports the North American Model of Wildlife Management.

[ShedHead20]

Or when tribal members are hunting pregnant cows in December, January, and February; each one of those kills are two elk.

I’m not siding with the tribal overharvest at all, but this is no different than killing them anytime after September by anyone else with a cow tag.

I agree. female harvest of deer and elk is a sticky subject and personally have only killed 2 female ungulates in my life and in all honesty felt weird about it. I love the opportunity for hunters to take cows and does, but also understand the possible effects it can have on a herd.

[Kingofthemountain83]

Washington State recognizes 29 tribes... Yes 29... Each have their own laws and seasons... Some have more treaty rights then others... I elk hunted and camped with a group of Spokanes during muzzy elk in Cowichie for 13 years... They bought elk tags just like us... Followed the muzzy and spike rules... They have a very limited draw to hunt elk on their rez... And allowed 6 deer a year per person... They mainly take whitetail... I know a few Yakima's... They're laws are way different 4 month's of the year they can take a cows or does, year round for bucks or bulls... No limit per person... But they have a management plan that stops hunting after met... If I could hunt all year or shoot X amount of animals a year I would to... 

 1/16 Blackfeet according to my genioligy... I qualify for nothing... Need another 1/16th! 

[andrew_in_idaho]

I remember back in 2001 I drew a goose prairie bull tag, if I remember right there were something like 200 any bull tags that year, how many are there now? I haven’t elk hunted in Washington since I left in 07


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[RC]

I remember back in 2001 I drew a goose prairie bull tag, if I remember right there were something like 200 any bull tags that year, how many are there now? I haven’t elk hunted in Washington since I left in 07


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2...like the bulk of the units over there now.

All the more reason my wife and I will be bailing out of this state in 4 years.  That time just can't come soon enough.

[Kingofthemountain83]

I remember back in 2001 I drew a goose prairie bull tag, if I remember right there were something like 200 any bull tags that year, how many are there now? I haven’t elk hunted in Washington since I left in 07


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This year there are...   

                     Quality... EA-2
                                   EF-2
                                   EM-1

                     Bull....... EF-5
                     
                Antlerless... They split the two GMU's up and give 50 for EA in 356 down to 10 for EM.... Not many tags...           

[Longfield1]

Is there data detailing the herd health from 2000 vs where it’s at now a quarter century later?  I’d be curious to know what the difference was then till now. Maybe there’s a discussion to be had.

[Kingofthemountain83]

Is there data detailing the herd health from 2000 vs where it’s at now a quarter century later?  I’d be curious to know what the difference was then till now. Maybe there’s a discussion to be had.

 In the early 2000's-2010 the Yakima herd hit all time high's becoming the largest herd in the state... They didn't have a major winter till 2017 and 2018... Killed most all yearlings and calfs, and a lot of older animals 2 years in a row... Now it's the second largest herd in the state and is holding strong... Rebuilding a little every year... They're doing research into calf survival in the Blue Mt. herd... That herd is on a downward trend... All I've read so far...

[hughjorgan]

Is there data detailing the herd health from 2000 vs where it’s at now a quarter century later?  I’d be curious to know what the difference was then till now. Maybe there’s a discussion to be had.

The Yakima herd numbers are doing really well from what I’ve encountered in the woods. More calves than I can recall from the early 2000s. Tons of spikes and lots of bulls. The difference between now and then is there was only one tribe to deal with hunting elk in the early 2000s and now you add the muckleshoots to the mix and about that time all the bull permits started to dry up.

[trophyhunt]

Is there data detailing the herd health from 2000 vs where it’s at now a quarter century later?  I’d be curious to know what the difference was then till now. Maybe there’s a discussion to be had.

The Yakima herd numbers are doing really well from what I’ve encountered in the woods. More calves than I can recall from the early 2000s. Tons of spikes and lots of bulls. The difference between now and then is there was only one tribe to deal with hunting elk in the early 2000s and now you add the muckleshoots to the mix and about that time all the bull permits started to dry up.

and the price per pound of jerky went up! 

[tankcdr66]

The spike only changes happened in the 90s after they changed the Blues to spike only.  The area was (346) clobbered by heavy snow and the elk migrated through to Oak Creek Feed Station.  Back then you could hunt around the station and hunters caught them out in the sage flats and near the road.  I think several hundred bulls were killed over a few days and something like 66% were branch bulls.  The next season was spike only and it has stayed that way ever since.  Back in those days there about 1500 cow tags given out each season in the 346 unit.  Long gone are those days.

[buglebuster]

The spike only changes happened in the 90s after they changed the Blues to spike only.  The area was (346) clobbered by heavy snow and the elk migrated through to Oak Creek Feed Station.  Back then you could hunt around the station and hunters caught them out in the sage flats and near the road.  I think several hundred bulls were killed over a few days and something like 66% were branch bulls.  The next season was spike only and it has stayed that way ever since.  Back in those days there about 1500 cow tags given out each season in the 346 unit.  Long gone are those days.

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