Big Game Hunting > Bow Hunting
The new Muzzy broadhead trocar.
sakoshooter:
The first deer I ever shot with a Wasp cam loc when they first came out was hit a bit high and in the spine. I recovered the deer after shooting it again. The first shot lost every bit of blade. Broke all three completely. Thick enough? I think not. Or was I just unlucky? I've never tagged a steel drum and don't plan on it but .010 or .015 in addition to .025 makes a big difference in blade strength in my opinion.
RadSav:
--- Quote from: sakoshooter on March 08, 2013, 01:29:28 AM ---The first deer I ever shot with a Wasp cam loc when they first came out was hit a bit high and in the spine. I recovered the deer after shooting it again. The first shot lost every bit of blade. Broke all three completely. Thick enough? I think not. Or was I just unlucky? I've never tagged a steel drum and don't plan on it but .010 or .015 in addition to .025 makes a big difference in blade strength in my opinion.
--- End quote ---
Stainless? All of us broadhead manufacturers back then heat treated that crappy stainless way to hard.
The .010" blades were definitely too thin. Sharp as heck, but too fragile. Plus back in those days most blade heat treating was hard to control and we got a good number that would break just by dropping them on the floor. Savora then came out with the .015" (50% thicker!!) and most of that seemed to stop. But he spent a lot of time working with Weick to develop the grind angles and the heat treating parameters that made them so efficient. I took two elk with spine shots, a couple bear where I broke the front shoulders and also took a cow elk by shooting straight down and through the skull. Never a failure.
Then "Experts" started telling us we had to use stainless steel. That just might be the one thing that set the broadhead industry back two decades. Especially those early stainless blades before Gillette helped develop AEB-L. I did a good bit of the lab work on testing those blades. They were so awful I chose not to do any of the field testing with them. Had I you can be assured my "No failure" record would have been busted for sure. The sharpness of those early stainless blades through the microscope was like looking at a bandsaw blade. Absolutely terrible stuff. But the demand for stainless by the experts drove WASP, Savora and Satelite into offering wide spread product choices. Satelite made their .010" Aero in stainless leading most states to outlaw the use of .010" blades.
Later the development of adding cryogenic chill plates into the stainless heat treating process greatly improved the consistency and durability of good stainless blades (I use that term comparatively) and the stainless broadheads improved greatly. They still had to be made softer than carbon. They still could not be ground to the level of sharpness as a high carbon blade. But at least you could expect consistant performance even though through the scope the edge still looked like a saw blade made from aluminum foil.
Then Savora developed the Titan broadhead with .020" blades and mistakenly took it to S.H.O.T. before having the proper blade dies in hand. With health issues and financial issues stemming from some theft and issues related to the development and supply of the Cam-Shaft arrows he did not make that product to market before Herter's archery expert and designer Bob Barrie brought us the Rocky Mountain Razor. The Razor was .020" stainless (100% thicker than the original .010" blades of the original WASP that used the Chic Injector blade and Satelite's Aero) with the highest quality stainless of the time, heat treated to perfection and ground with Savora's Titan blade angles. It was hard but not too hard, durable and as effective as any stainless blade up to the development by Gillette and Uddeholm's AEB-L. And finally the Experts had what they wanted and told the world that stainless was the greatest.
Years later Andy Simo brought us the Thunderhead 125 and the world of broadheads changed forever. .020" just was not good enough. Now everyone wanted bigger, thicker blades. And fewer and fewer people gave a damn about broadhead sharpness. So what if you had to blood trail further, could not afford to replace your blades often, and companies felt the need to try Asian suppliers of sub-par materials. Thickness and shooting steel drums and aluminum plate is all that mattered. Some companies did their very best to keep the quality of their blades high. Simo's NAP at that time made it a high priority as did Barrie's Rocky Mountain. They had their blades built by Crescent/Weick who was the world leader in sporting razors. But the average person still could not afford to replace their blades with the amount of regularity they had before. And why? Stainless doesn't rust! Or does it :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: There is a reason it is not called "rustless" ;)
I would say that with today's materials and processing equipment a good .015" high carbon razor heat treated properly is thick enough to reliably work in all but the steepest blade angled broadheads. But .020" would be better in every respect except the ever so minute disadvantage of sharpness. Over the last 20 years the .020" carbon has been my blade of choice and has never let me, my hunting partners or the wife down once. Even with today's great stainless and proper heat treating I believe .020" would be the minimum thickness I would be willing to try. However, in .020" stainless, if the blades are manufactured correctly I wouldn't choose a .025" or thicker blade ground poorly or heat treated poorly above it. So I would say .020" stainless is good enough - with the condition that poor grinding, poor material and poor heat treating even .060" is not enough with stainless.
Well, I could go on, but bed is calling, I fear my lack of sleep is turning into a rambling and I'm sure any more and I'd be writing an article instead of a post.
BOWHUNTER45:
:chuckle: :chuckle: No you just wrote a book .... :chuckle: But well done again ... Its all good guys ...Like I said before, I just like :stirthepot: nothen ment by what I say .. I am a firm believer in using whats works best for you ..Thats why I have shot Wasp for well over 25yrs and Hornaday bullets for even more :chuckle:
sakoshooter:
However, in .020" stainless, if the blades are manufactured correctly I wouldn't choose a .025" or thicker blade ground poorly or heat treated poorly above it. So I would say .020" stainless is good enough - with the condition that poor grinding, poor material and poor heat treating even .060" is not enough with stainless.
I appreciate the info Radsav and agree for the most part.
Let's be fair though and compare .020 or .025 tempered and sharpened correctly to .035 or .040 of the same. I would pic the thicker. But that's just me.
And by the way, it was Muzzy that started the 'steel drum' testing if memory serves, with their steel tips.
RadSav:
--- Quote from: sakoshooter on March 08, 2013, 01:43:11 PM --- However, in .020" stainless, if the blades are manufactured correctly I wouldn't choose a .025" or thicker blade ground poorly or heat treated poorly above it. So I would say .020" stainless is good enough - with the condition that poor grinding, poor material and poor heat treating even .060" is not enough with stainless.
I appreciate the info Radsav and agree for the most part.
Let's be fair though and compare .020 or .025 tempered and sharpened correctly to .035 or .040 of the same. I would pic the thicker. But that's just me.
And by the way, it was Muzzy that started the 'steel drum' testing if memory serves, with their steel tips.
--- End quote ---
I personally would never take .040." over .025" in stainless. Thing is you are talking sharpness and terminal performance. If you use the same hone angles on both the edge is just as fragile on one as it is the other. But rarely are the same hone angles used. Plus one of the most impartant factors in broadhead design is trying to prolong coagulation. The thicker rear blade surface and vents create a vacuum when they enter the soft tissue. If you watch them enter ballistic gel you'll notice a much larger bubble on most thick blade broadheads. .030" with a good grind and hone would be a nice stainless compromise IMO.
When it comes to shooting plates? Barrie was the one that started that. They would send all their qualified dealers a broadhead that was shot into aluminum plate as a counter display. The idea was to take away Savora's huge market share by showing their point was tougher. That was before the Muzzy we know entered the market place.