Post by: Band on August 02, 2012, 02:24:07 PM
So why is it that mechanicals are illegal for big game in this state anyway? Is there something inherently wrong with today's mechanical broadheads? Are they not an acceptable tool to get the job done for some reason? Maybe this is one of those rules that will eventually be overturned in Washington like it is in most other states and we just need to bide our time until that happens? What are the recognized archery organizations in this state saying about legalizing mechanicals?
Post by: Woodchuck on August 02, 2012, 02:30:37 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on August 02, 2012, 02:31:36 PM
What are the recognized archery organizations in this state saying about legalizing mechanicals?
They are generally opposed. I am generally opposed as well. Fixed blade heads introduce a higher chance of failure and have the potential to encourage shots at game that are not as ethical. It is a very detable and sometimes heated issue. :twocents:
Post by: huntnnw on August 02, 2012, 02:51:15 PM
Post by: Band on August 02, 2012, 02:54:10 PM
sounds to me you need to get your bow tuned..I have owned 10 different bows and have shot a multitude of broadheads since and I have had no difference in fieldtips and broadheads...paper tuned?I'm paper tuned beautifully which is why I'm still mystified that I can't get my broadheads to cooperate.
Post by: Band on August 02, 2012, 02:59:03 PM
I agree with keeping some of the advances out of bow hunting to keep it somewhat "primitive" but allowing broadheads that are easier to make fly like field points seems like a no brainer to me. I tend to think that those who are having this kind of problem are still likely to take longer shots in the heat of the moment because they can make the kill with their field points and they hope their broadhead shot will hit the mark which would make the intent you mentioned backfire and cause more animals to be wounded without recovery. This is likely particularly true for those with less experienced.What are the recognized archery organizations in this state saying about legalizing mechanicals?
They are generally opposed. I am generally opposed as well. Fixed blade heads introduce a higher chance of failure and have the potential to encourage shots at game that are not as ethical. It is a very detable and sometimes heated issue. :twocents:
Post by: h20hunter on August 02, 2012, 03:00:30 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on August 02, 2012, 03:03:52 PM
Post by: h20hunter on August 02, 2012, 03:08:34 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 02, 2012, 03:09:32 PM
Post by: Fullabull on August 02, 2012, 03:15:39 PM
After a huge amount of ongoing effort and testing of various scenarios with fixed blade broadheads I'm just not getting the kind of grouping I expect. I get excellent grouping to 60 yards with field points but my broadheads do something completely different with no grouping to speak of.
Your statement above is key to why Mechanicals are not allowed.
No matter what fixed blade you are shooting, you should be able to tune you bow to have your Field points and BH's hit the same place.
Anything "Mechanical" has the potential to fail which is not ethical to the animal you are hunting.
Like firearm hunters, Bow hunters are suppose to know how their weapon shoots and not have to rely on devices that help them make up for tuning issues (which is what mechanicals do).
I would suggest downloading the Eastman tuning guide from their web site and do some fine tuning for your fixed blades. You will never regret it ;)
Good luck
Post by: h20hunter on August 02, 2012, 03:19:06 PM
quick edit: by the way....I'm not even sure of my opinion to this question......just looking for opinions.
Post by: Russ McDonald on August 02, 2012, 03:24:54 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 02, 2012, 03:25:48 PM
This may be on or off topic but would be curious to a few opinions on the "mechanical" difference between an expandable broadhead and hollow point or expandable hunting bullet? Both have gone through extensive product development, testing, and trials and both could/do fail to perform at least some small percentage of time.I don't think that this comparison is relevant due to the fact that arrows and bullets are meant to kill in different ways. Arrows meant to cut vital tissue and induce bloodloss. Bullets are meant to kill with shock or delivering massive amounts of energy to the targets organs. It is a good thought tho. I guess a failure in wither case could leave a similar result... small hole and little shock or cut tissue. :dunno:
quick edit: by the way....I'm not even sure of my opinion to this question......just looking for opinions.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 03:29:16 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 02, 2012, 03:33:18 PM
Mechanicals are junk ... just my opinion... I will take a fixed blade any day over a mechanical ....Yeah they blow a big hole as long as you hit dead center threw the lungs ... and even then they may deflect if there is any kinda angles involved .. and you definately want to stay away from heavy bone... :twocents: getting your bow in tune is a must ! :tup:hey bowhunter" what kind of fixed broadhead would you reccomend he try? :chuckle:
Just had to...
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 03:34:04 PM
I killed a deer in VA with an expandable and it did open a nasty hole. Died within 5 steps:twocents: I have shot alot of animals with 1 1/8 hole and watched them flop over in seconds too !! But this could go on forever with all these different opinions :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: h20hunter on August 02, 2012, 03:34:59 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 03:36:43 PM
Post by: alwinearcher on August 02, 2012, 03:37:18 PM
The problem is there are good mechanicals and good fixed blades.
I have seen plenty of crappy fixed blade broadheads but that doesn't mean I can say "fixed blades are junk"
Mechanicals have come a long ways and I dont think there should be a law against using them! :twocents:
I shot a Grizzly this spring with a Ulmer Edge mechanical and the performance was amazing!
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 03:39:01 PM
Post by: alwinearcher on August 02, 2012, 03:41:24 PM
O.K So your saying you would give up your shuttle T over one :dunno: :o :chuckle:
I will be shooting both this year because in some states (WA mostly) I cant use the Ulmer Edge.
If they were legal in all states I just might.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 03:43:56 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 03:48:27 PM
Post by: alwinearcher on August 02, 2012, 03:49:56 PM
If I recall I can not say I have seen many elk shot with a mechanical ....Think they would work on an elk out to 50 yrds ...I do not ! Those low profile broadheads work better at longer distances ....fIXED BLADES for me :dunno: :chuckle:
I would have no hesitation in shooting a bull at longer ranges with a Edge. This broad head was designed by the most accomplished long range elk killers there are!
Post by: alwinearcher on August 02, 2012, 03:51:19 PM
I just collect some info from my back east boys ... and they ALL were excited about them and now most of them are back to fixed blades including my brother who is a whitetail killin machine ....he has lost a couple do to deflection and everyone I have talked to pretty much say the same thing ....But again we all have our own opinion and I am not causing trouble .... :hello: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Here is the issue... What broadhead did that happen with? "A mechanical"? :chuckle:
Post by: JPhelps on August 02, 2012, 03:56:45 PM
Quote
most accomplished long range elk killers there are!Are we still talking about archery hunting? I like the fact that the broadhead will perform, but...
My issue is people not having to spend as much time with their setup and walking out the door hunting after checking a couple field points.
Post by: whacker1 on August 02, 2012, 03:58:58 PM
check out this thread on Archery talk to see how many both fixed blade heads and how many mechanicals failed. I will say that there is a higher volume of mechanicals that failed, but there were several fixed blades that failed as well. over 100 pages, but you can look at the pictures if you go page by page or just look at the spreadsheet and it will tell you, which failed and which did not.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1790525 (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1790525)
I posted this thread earlier, and it really open my eyes to the durabality of both fixed blade and mechanical. And Mr. Alwine is correct on the Ulmer Edge with respect to this test- Cliff notes version is that theThe Shuttle T, Phathead, ramcat are three that are very high on the list for fixed blade. Ulmer Edge is the highest penetration of any of the mechanicals to date.
Post by: alwinearcher on August 02, 2012, 04:00:36 PM
Quotemost accomplished long range elk killers there are!Are we still talking about archery hunting? I like the fact that the broadhead will perform, but...
My issue is people not having to spend as much time with their setup and walking out the door hunting after checking a couple field points.
Yeah, maybe I should have said "longer range archery elk killers" lol
I agree, but the problem is I know tons of guys that do that anyways with fixed blade heads, and when you do it with fixed blade heads it can also be ugly :twocents:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 04:10:37 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 02, 2012, 04:27:36 PM
sounds to me you need to get your bow tuned..I have owned 10 different bows and have shot a multitude of broadheads since and I have had no difference in fieldtips and broadheads...paper tuned?I'm paper tuned beautifully which is why I'm still mystified that I can't get my broadheads to cooperate.
This doesn't mean your broadheads and bow are tuned. Once you paper tune, you need to start shooting at 20 yards (at least that's what I do). The grouping of the broadheads and field points will be the same once you've adjusted your arrow rest based on where your broadheads hit. Shoot the field tips first to adjust your sights. Once your field tips are hitting the bull, then shoot your broadhead. If the broadhead isn't hitting the same place, then you have to move your arrow rest in the direction you want the arrow to move (i.e. if the broadhead hits to the left, you want to move your rest slightly to the right, or the direction you want your broadhead to be moved for the correction). Here's a really good video that demonstrates this simply. Bow Tuning Tips / Broadhead Tuning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm_mBH9lhRw#)
Also, if your shaft spine isn't correct for your bow and weight, the field points can hit right and the broadheads can plane off. Make sure you're matching spine to draw length and weight. Your local bow guy can help with that. Good luck.
I
Post by: colockumelk on August 02, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
As far as the Ulmer Edge goes I'm pretty sure Randy Ulmer, Rusty Ulmer and Dan Evans knows what they are doing. The chances of that head failing is the same as a fixed head failing. It also has the same chance of deflecting.
Matt is correct. The Ulmer Edge is plain nasty when it comes to damage it causes on animals.
Post by: colockumelk on August 02, 2012, 05:18:16 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc)
Post by: steeleywhopper on August 02, 2012, 05:24:15 PM
After a huge amount of ongoing effort and testing of various scenarios with fixed blade broadheads I'm just not getting the kind of grouping I expect. I get excellent grouping to 60 yards with field points but my broadheads do something completely different with no grouping to speak of.
So why is it that mechanicals are illegal for big game in this state anyway? Is there something inherently wrong with today's mechanical broadheads? Are they not an acceptable tool to get the job done for some reason? Maybe this is one of those rules that will eventually be overturned in Washington like it is in most other states and we just need to bide our time until that happens? What are the recognized archery organizations in this state saying about legalizing mechanicals?
Too many do-gooders out there think our state and animals are too good for them. My opinion. If you don't like them then don't use them.
Post by: colockumelk on August 02, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 11:12:31 PM
ALL THIS IS FUNNY :chuckle: I mentioned this on here once and a few bow pros went on to say your crazy and if your bow is in tune you do not have to line up your fletching with your broadheads ...Well I have done that for as long as I have been shooting a bow and never intend to change :yike: :tup:sounds to me you need to get your bow tuned..I have owned 10 different bows and have shot a multitude of broadheads since and I have had no difference in fieldtips and broadheads...paper tuned?I'm paper tuned beautifully which is why I'm still mystified that I can't get my broadheads to cooperate.
This doesn't mean your broadheads and bow are tuned. Once you paper tune, you need to start shooting at 20 yards (at least that's what I do). The grouping of the broadheads and field points will be the same once you've adjusted your arrow rest based on where your broadheads hit. Shoot the field tips first to adjust your sights. Once your field tips are hitting the bull, then shoot your broadhead. If the broadhead isn't hitting the same place, then you have to move your arrow rest in the direction you want the arrow to move (i.e. if the broadhead hits to the left, you want to move your rest slightly to the right, or the direction you want your broadhead to be moved for the correction). Here's a really good video that demonstrates this simply. Bow Tuning Tips / Broadhead Tuning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm_mBH9lhRw#)
Also, if your shaft spine isn't correct for your bow and weight, the field points can hit right and the broadheads can plane off. Make sure you're matching spine to draw length and weight. Your local bow guy can help with that. Good luck.
I
Post by: deleted BGS on August 02, 2012, 11:22:37 PM
Post by: Band on August 03, 2012, 09:34:32 AM
Thanks for the video link, Pianoman. I've been so caught up with getting my paper tuning perfect that I didn't take the next step so now I'm going to try following this guy's tips about moving my rest to "tune the broadheads", although I'll pass on his advice to line up the fletchings with the broadhead blades which seems unnecessary to me.sounds to me you need to get your bow tuned..I have owned 10 different bows and have shot a multitude of broadheads since and I have had no difference in fieldtips and broadheads...paper tuned?I'm paper tuned beautifully which is why I'm still mystified that I can't get my broadheads to cooperate.
This doesn't mean your broadheads and bow are tuned. Once you paper tune, you need to start shooting at 20 yards (at least that's what I do). The grouping of the broadheads and field points will be the same once you've adjusted your arrow rest based on where your broadheads hit. Shoot the field tips first to adjust your sights. Once your field tips are hitting the bull, then shoot your broadhead. If the broadhead isn't hitting the same place, then you have to move your arrow rest in the direction you want the arrow to move (i.e. if the broadhead hits to the left, you want to move your rest slightly to the right, or the direction you want your broadhead to be moved for the correction). Here's a really good video that demonstrates this simply. Bow Tuning Tips / Broadhead Tuning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm_mBH9lhRw#)
Also, if your shaft spine isn't correct for your bow and weight, the field points can hit right and the broadheads can plane off. Make sure you're matching spine to draw length and weight. Your local bow guy can help with that. Good luck.
I
If adjusting the rest doesn't work the next thing I'm going to try is a stiffer-spined arrow. The charts have me at 400's, which I have shot all along, but if necessary I'll get 1/2 dozen 340's and see how they perform.
Thanks, fellas! :hello:
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 03, 2012, 09:51:13 AM
Post by: ribka on August 03, 2012, 06:54:04 PM
Almost 80 years ago Pope and Young used to take animals over 100 yds with homemade arrows bows and broad heads
I can shoot COC Magnus in tight groups out to80 yds
Tuning problem
After a huge amount of ongoing effort and testing of various scenarios with fixed blade broadheads I'm just not getting the kind of grouping I expect. I get excellent grouping to 60 yards with field points but my broadheads do something completely different with no grouping to speak of.
So why is it that mechanicals are illegal for big game in this state anyway? Is there something inherently wrong with today's mechanical broadheads? Are they not an acceptable tool to get the job done for some reason? Maybe this is one of those rules that will eventually be overturned in Washington like it is in most other states and we just need to bide our time until that happens? What are the recognized archery organizations in this state saying about legalizing mechanicals?
Post by: fly4fish on August 04, 2012, 05:50:39 AM
Original poster, are your arrows fletched at the maximum helical to induce the most spin. I started scraping the fetching off of my arrows and putting my own on with an "Arizona Fletcher" and that helped out a lot for my broadhead flight. If you are shooting broadheads at all directions from your field points, then it is hard to tune your broadheads to shoot the same.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 04, 2012, 08:10:26 AM
Thanks for the video link, Pianoman. I've been so caught up with getting my paper tuning perfect that I didn't take the next step so now I'm going to try following this guy's tips about moving my rest to "tune the broadheads", although I'll pass on his advice to line up the fletchings with the broadhead blades which seems unnecessary to me.Band , why does it seem unnecessary to you to line up the vanes with the broadhead ...seems like a no brain er to me ...if the vanes and broadhead are not lined up with each then when the arrow is released from the bow the vanes and broadhead are fighting each other going threw the air making the air not fly as true ... take 2 arrows one that's not lined up with the vanes and one that is and using the same head and arrow and see if there is a difference ...most likely their will be !! :tup:sounds to me you need to get your bow tuned..I have owned 10 different bows and have shot a multitude of broadheads since and I have had no difference in fieldtips and broadheads...paper tuned?I'm paper tuned beautifully which is why I'm still mystified that I can't get my broadheads to cooperate.
This doesn't mean your broadheads and bow are tuned. Once you paper tune, you need to start shooting at 20 yards (at least that's what I do). The grouping of the broadheads and field points will be the same once you've adjusted your arrow rest based on where your broadheads hit. Shoot the field tips first to adjust your sights. Once your field tips are hitting the bull, then shoot your broadhead. If the broadhead isn't hitting the same place, then you have to move your arrow rest in the direction you want the arrow to move (i.e. if the broadhead hits to the left, you want to move your rest slightly to the right, or the direction you want your broadhead to be moved for the correction). Here's a really good video that demonstrates this simply. Bow Tuning Tips / Broadhead Tuning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm_mBH9lhRw#)
Also, if your shaft spine isn't correct for your bow and weight, the field points can hit right and the broadheads can plane off. Make sure you're matching spine to draw length and weight. Your local bow guy can help with that. Good luck.
I
If adjusting the rest doesn't work the next thing I'm going to try is a stiffer-spined arrow. The charts have me at 400's, which I have shot all along, but if necessary I'll get 1/2 dozen 340's and see how they perform.
Thanks, fellas! :hello:
Post by: fly4fish on August 04, 2012, 10:33:26 AM
That is why I think your problem either lies in the arrow spine or the angle of the fetching. I was not grouping well at one time with my broadheads, but my field points were. I put on new fetching with the maximum angle, and now the broadheads fly just as good as my field points.
Are your vanes factory installed? If so, check the angle. As for lining up the broadheads with the fetching, it may not make a huge difference, but it wont hurt and it just looks better when looking down the arrow. Why not line them up is the question?
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 05, 2012, 07:40:20 AM
Here are the results. Dur = Durability, Pen=Penetration, Dep= Dependability , SB= Sharpness Before, SA= Sharpness After.Clockum ... thanks but I can not see on this sheet where they stated what grain broadheads they used ....thats the problem with these test we have no way of knowing what they are doing .....they all should use the same weight head and the same arrows and the same poundage of bow ... :twocents:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc)
Post by: lokidog on August 05, 2012, 09:14:16 AM
I started fletching my own arrows this year. While I was trying to sight in and such I discovered my arrows liked to group in different places (slightly). I numbered my arrows and discovered that they did usually go to the same place each time. A couple I stripped the fletches as they were obviously off for some reason. Factory arrows might be fletched more uniformly than my beginning attempts though.
The other thing, as also mentioned, is that you might need a stiffer arrow. According to the charts, my arrows with my previous bow should have worked fine, but there were some consistency issues. When I got some slightly stiffer arrows, the group tightened up quite a bit. I still target shoot with my old arrows but they definitely group more loosely than the stiffer ones.
Good luck.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 05, 2012, 09:32:34 AM
Post by: colockumelk on August 05, 2012, 12:28:25 PM
Here are the results. Dur = Durability, Pen=Penetration, Dep= Dependability , SB= Sharpness Before, SA= Sharpness After.Clockum ... thanks but I can not see on this sheet where they stated what grain broadheads they used ....thats the problem with these test we have no way of knowing what they are doing .....they all should use the same weight head and the same arrows and the same poundage of bow ... :twocents:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc)
Well duh of course everything was the same. Do you think I would put any credibility in a test if all things were not the same? That defeats the purpose of a study or test if you don't use the same standard. Everything was the same. Same bow, same DL, same draw weight, same shooter, same arrows, same distance, same BH weight.
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on August 05, 2012, 12:42:40 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 05, 2012, 01:28:54 PM
One thing I like to do is. Shoot all my arrows with a broadhead and some arrows will shoot consistently better than others. I label them 1-6 on my fletchings with dots. Works well:tup: I am sure a few of us have done that before :chuckle:
Post by: colockumelk on August 05, 2012, 03:01:13 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2012, 07:36:13 AM
I don't' think tuning your bow for broadheads will make you group any better (will it?), but more so just make them group with your field points. If your field points are grouping fine, then your broadheads should be grouping as well if your bow is tuned correctly, maybe just not in the same place. That is when moving the rest a little in the direction of the field point will make your broadheads group with your field points. First you have to get the broadheads to group by themselves before you need to worry about that.
That is why I think your problem either lies in the arrow spine or the angle of the fetching. I was not grouping well at one time with my broadheads, but my field points were. I put on new fetching with the maximum angle, and now the broadheads fly just as good as my field points.
Are your vanes factory installed? If so, check the angle. As for lining up the broadheads with the fetching, it may not make a huge difference, but it wont hurt and it just looks better when looking down the arrow. Why not line them up is the question?
This is exactly when broadhead and bow tuning is needed. Again, if you're shooting the same weight broadheads as field points and they're not hitting the same place, either tuning or a shaft change is needed. Field tips are very forgiving. Your rest can be way off, causing right or left movement and you can still sight in to center with them. Broadheads will plane off when you have these problems. Don't re-adjust your sights for the broadheads when your field tips hit true and the broadheads don't. Make sure you spine is right and tune, tune, tune.
Post by: colockumelk on August 06, 2012, 09:52:20 AM
Post by: Band on August 28, 2012, 08:25:08 AM
I tuned and tuned, going back to the beginning several times, with no satisfactory results until I removed the Octane Hostage and put on my Whisker Buscuit and then paper tuned and broadhead tuned yet again and now the broadheads and field points are flying identically to 60 yards, which is what I have my pins maxed out at.
I was on the verge of "outing" my crappy broadheads and/or bow that shoots inconsistently and was just about to go invest in a different brand of broadhead but I finally made the one equipment change I had been avoiding and now I'm ready for the season, not a moment too soon! :IBCOOL:
I take back what I was thinking about Muzzy broadheads. Like everyone says, good tuning will make broadheads like they should. ;)
Post by: firedog on August 28, 2012, 09:54:19 AM
I have been fighting an uncoopertive bow since I put new strings on it, lost some draw weight somehow and spent yesterday shooting(150+ arrows) and adjusting. Paper tuned it last night and shooting bullet holes out to 20. Went out this morning and adjusted sights a little and back dialed in with Field points and broadheads out to 60.
1 week to go and time to chase elk!!
Back to the original question, I like fixed blades. I want less possibility for issues and anything that has moving parts has potential for problems. If people want to shoot mechanicals that is thier choice but I will stick with my Slick tricks
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 28, 2012, 10:38:45 AM
Post by: worldsworsthunter on August 28, 2012, 11:26:48 AM
Post by: halflife65 on August 28, 2012, 11:33:32 AM
G5 makes a little device to help with that: http://www.g5outdoors.com/product_detail/48 (http://www.g5outdoors.com/product_detail/48)
It works pretty well, by the way.