Post by: Todd_ID on August 02, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on August 02, 2012, 07:34:01 PM
Post by: alwinearcher on August 02, 2012, 07:36:55 PM
Post by: Hunterman on August 02, 2012, 07:40:05 PM
Hunterman(Tony)
Post by: DoubleJ on August 02, 2012, 07:45:51 PM
Yes.. The primitive status went out the door years ago.. This state needs to catch up to the times..
Hunterman(Tony)
:yeah:
If you want to stay primitive, go right ahead but I don't see why you should infringe on my right to choose my broadhead of choice.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 02, 2012, 11:03:55 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 03, 2012, 04:31:06 AM
Post by: winshooter88 on August 03, 2012, 05:26:35 AM
Post by: RadSav on August 03, 2012, 05:29:37 AM
Then again, I can not for the life of me figure out why 209 primers are not allowed for muzzy hunting either. So, perhaps I'm just an idiot :dunno:
Post by: bwhntr350 on August 03, 2012, 05:48:46 AM
Do people forget how political the issue of hunting is and especially Archery? For everything we get we lose days off of our season as the other user groups will and can use it against us in their lobbying.
I am a definite "NO" and I will never change.
Soon we will be down to one week seasons.
Post by: Russ McDonald on August 03, 2012, 06:59:46 AM
Totally agree. It should be our choice.Yes.. The primitive status went out the door years ago.. This state needs to catch up to the times..
Hunterman(Tony)
:yeah:
If you want to stay primitive, go right ahead but I don't see why you should infringe on my right to choose my broadhead of choice.
Then again, I can not for the life of me figure out why 209 primers are not allowed for muzzy hunting either. So, perhaps I'm just an idiot Radsav I agree with you there too. I know that California laws and regulations suck for hunting but the can use illuminocks, mechanical broadheads and 209 primer.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 03, 2012, 07:21:58 AM
Post by: arrowflinger on August 03, 2012, 08:00:20 AM
Totally agree. It should be our choice.Yes.. The primitive status went out the door years ago.. This state needs to catch up to the times..
Hunterman(Tony)
:yeah:
If you want to stay primitive, go right ahead but I don't see why you should infringe on my right to choose my broadhead of choice.
Then again, I can not for the life of me figure out why 209 primers are not allowed for muzzy hunting either. So, perhaps I'm just an idiot Radsav I agree with you there too. I know that California laws and regulations suck for hunting but the can use illuminocks, mechanical broadheads and 209 primer.
:yeah:
Post by: Band on August 03, 2012, 09:47:20 AM
On a side note, I also wonder whether mechanical blades are more prone than fixed blades to coming apart upon hitting bone or even a target? :dunno:
Post by: Russ McDonald on August 03, 2012, 09:53:34 AM
Provisionally, I'm a "yes" on the issue. My only hesitation is the question of whether blades on mechanicals open before or after they pierce the hide. If they open after piercing the hide the entry wound would be completely covered by the arrow shaft on a shot that doesn't pass through, which could make blood trailing more difficult and lead to more unrecovered animals.I know Grim Reapers and Rage all open on impact with the skin. I have seen some mechanicals that shoot through plywood on the advertisements. My family in Minnesota use pretty much all mechanicals and never have had any problems. I have talked with my uncle and he recommended mechanical broadheads to me when I asked him what kind of broadhead I should use. This was when I lived in California.
On a side note, I also wonder whether mechanical blades are more prone than fixed blades to coming apart upon hitting bone or even a target? :dunno:
Post by: LRP on August 03, 2012, 11:16:15 AM
"It is unlawful to hunt big game animals with a broadhead blade unless the broadhead is unbarbed and completely closed at the back end of the blade or blades by a smooth, unbroken surface starting at maximum blade width and forming a smooth line toward the feather end of the shaft, and such line does not angle toward the point."
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 03, 2012, 11:42:01 AM
Post by: Russ McDonald on August 03, 2012, 12:27:35 PM
just realize one thing ...most of these guys who shoot exspandables are mostly hunting for whitetail and are in tree stands and are shooting at closer ranges ..like 20 to 30 yards ...which in all reality is the ultimate range of any bowhunter hunter ...but out west where we live you can have longer shots which I personally do not think an exspandable will penetrate as well as a fixed blade ...its pretty simple to me .. if you shoot a broadhead that opens up to two inches in diameter compared to one that opens up to 1 1/8 in diameter WHICH ONE will most likely penetrate the deepest ??? Sure hope your not thinking the exspandable with a 2 inch blade ... :yike: :chuckle: I can also say this since I grew up on the east coast ...Back when I hunted whitetail as a kid I never ever thought about shooting at any deer over 35 to 40 yrds and most east coasters still abid by that rule today ...when I tell my buddies back there I am killing sheet at 50 and sometimes 60 yrds they think I am insane ....but I practice at these ranges all the time and know I can kill sheet at these distances with room to spare knowing some of my longer shots were complete pass threws ...and why is this because its all in the broadhead ....a fixed broadhead ...and I WILL NOT SAY WHICH KIND :dunno: :yike: All i know is if I had the equipment I now have today and was back home on the farm I would have a sheet load of monster whitetail ...I sat in a tree stand thousands of hours watch those P.A whitetail just stay out of my shooting range of 40 yrds ...If I was there now , well sheet would be alot different ... :twocents:How long has it been since you looked at expandable/mechanical broadheads. I think the smallest cutting diameter they make now is 1 3/8" most are 1 3/4" to 2". I understand it is all personal preference but it should be our choice and not be illegal. I hope they do change it in the near future. I am sure no one is going to change anyones mind. I always say use what works the best for you.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 03, 2012, 12:48:08 PM
Yeah I know ..it is hard for everyone to agree ...I have my own theory and I stated a few above ...plus I have heard alot more negitive issues with mechanicals than I have positive ones ...I guess thats why I say No ! I would use one on a turkey and thats about it :twocents: its all good and I am waiting for them to legalize them so we can see what feed back we get then :tup:just realize one thing ...most of these guys who shoot exspandables are mostly hunting for whitetail and are in tree stands and are shooting at closer ranges ..like 20 to 30 yards ...which in all reality is the ultimate range of any bowhunter hunter ...but out west where we live you can have longer shots which I personally do not think an exspandable will penetrate as well as a fixed blade ...its pretty simple to me .. if you shoot a broadhead that opens up to two inches in diameter compared to one that opens up to 1 1/8 in diameter WHICH ONE will most likely penetrate the deepest ??? Sure hope your not thinking the exspandable with a 2 inch blade ... :yike: :chuckle: I can also say this since I grew up on the east coast ...Back when I hunted whitetail as a kid I never ever thought about shooting at any deer over 35 to 40 yrds and most east coasters still abid by that rule today ...when I tell my buddies back there I am killing sheet at 50 and sometimes 60 yrds they think I am insane ....but I practice at these ranges all the time and know I can kill sheet at these distances with room to spare knowing some of my longer shots were complete pass threws ...and why is this because its all in the broadhead ....a fixed broadhead ...and I WILL NOT SAY WHICH KIND :dunno: :yike: All i know is if I had the equipment I now have today and was back home on the farm I would have a sheet load of monster whitetail ...I sat in a tree stand thousands of hours watch those P.A whitetail just stay out of my shooting range of 40 yrds ...If I was there now , well sheet would be alot different ... :twocents:How long has it been since you looked at expandable/mechanical broadheads. I think the smallest cutting diameter they make now is 1 3/8" most are 1 3/4" to 2". I understand it is all personal preference but it should be our choice and not be illegal. I hope they do change it in the near future. I am sure no one is going to change anyones mind. I always say use what works the best for you.
Post by: Russ McDonald on August 03, 2012, 01:03:01 PM
10-4 to that :tup:Yeah I know ..it is hard for everyone to agree ...I have my own theory and I stated a few above ...plus I have heard alot more negitive issues with mechanicals than I have positive ones ...I guess thats why I say No ! I would use one on a turkey and thats about it :twocents: its all good and I am waiting for them to legalize them so we can see what feed back we get then :tup:just realize one thing ...most of these guys who shoot exspandables are mostly hunting for whitetail and are in tree stands and are shooting at closer ranges ..like 20 to 30 yards ...which in all reality is the ultimate range of any bowhunter hunter ...but out west where we live you can have longer shots which I personally do not think an exspandable will penetrate as well as a fixed blade ...its pretty simple to me .. if you shoot a broadhead that opens up to two inches in diameter compared to one that opens up to 1 1/8 in diameter WHICH ONE will most likely penetrate the deepest ??? Sure hope your not thinking the exspandable with a 2 inch blade ... :yike: :chuckle: I can also say this since I grew up on the east coast ...Back when I hunted whitetail as a kid I never ever thought about shooting at any deer over 35 to 40 yrds and most east coasters still abid by that rule today ...when I tell my buddies back there I am killing sheet at 50 and sometimes 60 yrds they think I am insane ....but I practice at these ranges all the time and know I can kill sheet at these distances with room to spare knowing some of my longer shots were complete pass threws ...and why is this because its all in the broadhead ....a fixed broadhead ...and I WILL NOT SAY WHICH KIND :dunno: :yike: All i know is if I had the equipment I now have today and was back home on the farm I would have a sheet load of monster whitetail ...I sat in a tree stand thousands of hours watch those P.A whitetail just stay out of my shooting range of 40 yrds ...If I was there now , well sheet would be alot different ... :twocents:How long has it been since you looked at expandable/mechanical broadheads. I think the smallest cutting diameter they make now is 1 3/8" most are 1 3/4" to 2". I understand it is all personal preference but it should be our choice and not be illegal. I hope they do change it in the near future. I am sure no one is going to change anyones mind. I always say use what works the best for you.
Post by: ribka on August 03, 2012, 06:59:17 PM
just realize one thing ...most of these guys who shoot exspandables are mostly hunting for whitetail and are in tree stands and are shooting at closer ranges ..like 20 to 30 yards ...which in all reality is the ultimate range of any bowhunter hunter ...but out west where we live you can have longer shots which I personally do not think an exspandable will penetrate as well as a fixed blade ...its pretty simple to me .. if you shoot a broadhead that opens up to two inches in diameter compared to one that opens up to 1 1/8 in diameter WHICH ONE will most likely penetrate the deepest ??? Sure hope your not thinking the exspandable with a 2 inch blade ... :yike: :chuckle: I can also say this since I grew up on the east coast ...Back when I hunted whitetail as a kid I never ever thought about shooting at any deer over 35 to 40 yrds and most east coasters still abid by that rule today ...when I tell my buddies back there I am killing sheet at 50 and sometimes 60 yrds they think I am insane ....but I practice at these ranges all the time and know I can kill sheet at these distances with room to spare knowing some of my longer shots were complete pass threws ...and why is this because its all in the broadhead ....a fixed broadhead ...and I WILL NOT SAY WHICH KIND :dunno: :yike: All i know is if I had the equipment I now have today and was back home on the farm I would have a sheet load of monster whitetail ...I sat in a tree stand thousands of hours watch those P.A whitetail just stay out of my shooting range of 40 yrds ...If I was there now , well sheet would be alot different ... :twocents:
Post by: colockumelk on August 03, 2012, 07:03:12 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc)
Post by: 92xj on August 03, 2012, 07:21:10 PM
I can also say this since I grew up on the east coast ...Back when I hunted whitetail as a kid I never ever thought about shooting at any deer over 35 to 40 yrds and most east coasters still abid by that rule today ...
Being from the South/East coast and only living out here for 3 years, there are longer shots here to take...BUT...There are plenty of hunters there that will take shots will beyond 35-40 yards. My first year of bow hunting I killed 7 deer total. 3 under 20 yards, 1 35 yards and the others 50-58 yards. Everyone that I bow hunt with down there will shoot out to 60+ yards with a max of 70, using fixed and expandables. I will never claim that "most" would stick to a rule of a max of 35-40 yards.
On the topic of fixed vs expandables. With newish bows and technology of expandables, they will kill and penetrate the same. Every shot is different and every impact on an animal is different. I personally will never shoot an expandable. Of all the bow hunters I have hunted with 50% shot fixed and 50% expandables. All killed deer from 10 yards to 70 yards. The only issue I have ever seen and been apart of the experience that I did not like and turned me off of expandables was one blade not openeing on a doe at 30 yards from a climber 36 feet high. Killed the deer, but the blood trail sucked and it took me 3 hours to find this deer that only went 60 yards. Tall over grown brush with trails ground level for escape routes for the deer. Doing a grid pattern looking for a deer in that stuff sucks. But we found the deer and it killed it dead. If that happened out here, I may not have the same feelings since I have yet to see some brush as thick as what that scenario presented. If it happened in a wide open area or the woods that I have walked and discovered in this state, the tracking and finding of the deer would have been easier and not put a bad taste in my mouth about the expandables.
With an expandable you are just giving yourself one more thing to go wrong and not work properly. I have never seen a fix blade not deploy and open up.
As for the law, I dont see why they would not allow them. Cant say they dont penetrate and dont kill deer. They do. Cant say they suck because of shot placement. I've seen fixed suck because of bad shot placement.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 03, 2012, 07:35:32 PM
Actually Bowhunter the Ulmer Edge ( a 1.5" mechanical) far out penetrated your Wasp Boss. So your statement isn't true. Also a lot of guys shoot elk, moose, caribou, pronghorn etc out west and get pass throughs at 50-60 yrs. With todays modern bows they produce enough energy to push a 2" broadhead through a moose at 50 yds.Colockum ...I am still waiting on that broadhead you were sending me and you might want to send one of those too !!!! :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :hello:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc)
Post by: whitetailslyr on August 03, 2012, 07:44:27 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 03, 2012, 07:48:27 PM
Again the Wasps penetrated 11.5" (which was better than 90% of the other heads) but the Ulmer Edge penetrated all the way through and exited.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 03, 2012, 07:49:52 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 03, 2012, 07:52:52 PM
Post by: deerslyr on August 03, 2012, 07:55:57 PM
and I am sorry but there is no way in h--- your going to convince me an exspandable is going to penetrate as good as a fixed blade .... I am so sure of that , that I will speak with confidence on that one ... Most of the shows on T.V show that the majority are shooting a fixed blade ....I wonder why ? when someone finds a video on someone killing something with an exspandable at 50 yrds please let me know about it ...I can not find any :chuckle: :chuckle: One word for them ( JUNK ) just my own opinion and I do respect all the compliments you guys have with exspandables :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
BH45, your sounding like a liberal right now, when comforted with fact you deny it :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 03, 2012, 07:56:04 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 03, 2012, 07:57:07 PM
Post by: seth30 on August 03, 2012, 08:25:04 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 04, 2012, 04:41:47 AM
and I am sorry but there is no way in h--- your going to convince me an exspandable is going to penetrate as good as a fixed blade .... I am so sure of that , that I will speak with confidence on that one ... Most of the shows on T.V show that the majority are shooting a fixed blade ....I wonder why ? when someone finds a video on someone killing something with an exspandable at 50 yrds please let me know about it ...I can not find any :chuckle: :chuckle: One word for them ( JUNK ) just my own opinion and I do respect all the compliments you guys have with exspandables :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I provided proof you just refuse to open the link to see for yourself. There were actually 3 or 4 mechanicals that out penetrated the Wasps. And I would be willing to bet that at least 2/3 to 3/4 of hunting shows shoot mechanicals. Even the guys who mostly do stuff out west.
Post by: grundy53 on August 04, 2012, 06:25:26 AM
:yeah: BH45 don't let facts get in the way of a good story.....just like a liberal....and I am sorry but there is no way in h--- your going to convince me an exspandable is going to penetrate as good as a fixed blade .... I am so sure of that , that I will speak with confidence on that one ... Most of the shows on T.V show that the majority are shooting a fixed blade ....I wonder why ? when someone finds a video on someone killing something with an exspandable at 50 yrds please let me know about it ...I can not find any :chuckle: :chuckle: One word for them ( JUNK ) just my own opinion and I do respect all the compliments you guys have with exspandables :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
I provided proof you just refuse to open the link to see for yourself. There were actually 3 or 4 mechanicals that out penetrated the Wasps. And I would be willing to bet that at least 2/3 to 3/4 of hunting shows shoot mechanicals. Even the guys who mostly do stuff out west.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 04, 2012, 08:01:59 AM
Post by: RadSav on August 04, 2012, 12:59:21 PM
Good arrow flight leads to better penetration than the differences between broadheads these days. If you are shooting 45# then maybe worry about how a head penetrates. If you are like 98% of most American bowhunters you should worry far more about sharpness and reduction of air into the wound channel. I'd much rather watch my animal go down than marvel at how deep my arrow penetrated the dirt on the other side.
Steel blunts penetrate plywood better than any broadhead. An axe will break cinder blocks better than any broadhead. And an X10 with target point will out penetrate a broadhead in ballistic gel. Even with all that "Fact" I would still prefer to shoot my elk with a nice sharp broadhead. ;)
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 04, 2012, 02:21:12 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 04, 2012, 08:31:28 PM
And the testing wasn't an infomercial ( see Grim Reaped or Swhacker or anything else produced by Wade Nolan). It was done by some guy with too much time on his hands. People donated broadheads to test just like Bwhnter has asked. If it was rigged then a big name like G5, Grim Reaper, or Rage or NAP would have won. ( Each actually did poorly). Instead the broadheads that did the best were names like VPA, Trophy Taker, Wasp, Slick Trick, grave Digger.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 04, 2012, 11:15:25 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 04, 2012, 11:22:54 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 04, 2012, 11:31:09 PM
Post by: fair-chase on August 04, 2012, 11:36:57 PM
:tup: i guess I better join this archery talk site and see what everyone is talking about ...they will proberly throw me off :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
LOL. Those guys are more ego sensitive than waterfowlers. I'd love to see how that unfolds. :chuckle:
Post by: carpsniperg2 on August 04, 2012, 11:44:44 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 05, 2012, 12:40:11 AM
Two blade heads in general have 30% less frictional drag than a similar shaped 3 blade broadhead of the same diameter. Yes about 30% as regardless of popular conjecture and supposition point and ferrule design only effect about 3-4% of a legal broadheads frictional drag. Thus, your two blade broadhead generally penetrates better than a three blade broadhead of equivalent profile. Vented blades less than non-vented blades, thicker blades less than thinner blades...etc.
The wound channel, however, is vastly different. In a three blade broadhead design you are guaranteed to have a minimum of two blades cutting across the grain of tissue. With two blades the possibility exists to have no cutting across the grain of tissue. In the lungs this may not matter much. But if solid muscle tissue is struck as in a Texas Heart shot or the spinal cord is struck this could lead to a lost animal. And recovery distances lengthened greatly.
I don't suggest people give up something they like, but there is far more to the lethality of a broadhead than penetration and/or cutting diameter. And few get beyond the marketing spin and emotional response of hype to fully evaluate their broadhead choices. Even fewer apply known facts through the study of medical/clinical, metallurgical and external/terminal ballistics. Seems the emotional excitement of broadheads make so many forget basic physics classes of our youth.
Don't for a minute believe that a successful harvest means an efficient harvest. In 1986 I won a national field testing and representation award on my very last hunt of the year taking a nice 7X7 bull in Oregon's Strawberry Mountains. Much hype was created at the following SHOT show with that bull and the then production version of the 1.5" two blade broadhead prototype I was using. Between pig and goat culling and general seasons in four states I had harvested 37 animals efficiently with that broadhead prior to the big bull. That bull was only harvested successfully because of a fourth arrow placed through both lungs at 80 yards. Two of the three previous arrows had gone high at distances of 15 and 20 yards driving completely though the spinal cord with both arrows (that's not the spinal column but the actual cord itself). The third drove from thirty yards through the ham stopping short of the liver after making hard contact with bone. Not one of those three shots saw the two blade broadhead cross the directional fiber of tissues needed for an efficient and quick harvest.
While one out of 38 might not seem such bad odds, had I been shooting a three blade broadhead of even 1" diameter the results would have been 100% with 38 of 38 efficiently harvested. I haven't shot a two blade broadhead without bleeders since.
I really hate it when I see penetration tests. It means absolutely nothing about the efficiency of a broadhead. It takes the focus off of sharp blades and edge maintaining steel. It's like debating what car manufacturer makes the fastest car while not noticing that your test subjects have only steel rims and no tires. It's completely senseless in my mind.
Bowhunter45 - Please man! Save yourself and stay away from Archery Talk.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 05, 2012, 07:31:19 AM
Post by: colockumelk on August 05, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
I am not trying to sell people on mechanicals. My head of choice is a Slick Trick Magnum that has a 1 1/8" cutting diameter. A hole that most on archery talk consider tiny. I agree Archery talk is dumb. I joined it because they have the largest classifieds of any website.
I agree with almost everything you said in your last post. So you were preaching to the choir at least with me.
Post by: colockumelk on August 05, 2012, 12:51:46 PM
So since I'm only hunting Whitetails this year with my bow I decided to try a mechanical. Because I am always tinkering with my set up and trying new stuff. So I figured why not. But man those things are expensive. So what to do. Then comes along a stupid infomercial with Wade Nolan for Swhacker. Never even considered this head until the end of the commercial when it mentioned that they were buy one pack get the second pack free. So yep I have six Swhackers in my quiver. Not because of anything Wade Nolan said but because I am cheap sometimes. :chuckle:
Would I use these on an elk. Mmmmmm no! It will be a cold day in hell before I switch my Slick Tricks out for western game. :tup:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 05, 2012, 01:23:20 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on August 05, 2012, 02:33:32 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 05, 2012, 03:07:41 PM
I do however think the test is a good indication as to how tough the broadheads are. In this area the fixed heads defenitaly stood the trst way better than the mechanicals. I think in the top ten scores on that guys test there were only two mechanicals so what does that tell you. And yeah the Rage was not in the top 10 despite what all the tv adds would have you believe.
Post by: rainshadow1 on August 05, 2012, 03:19:14 PM
How long it takes the animal to die isn't part of the primitive discussion. Everything up to projectile penetration is stylistic/taste/tradition... the hole it makes? Hey, bigger the better! Put 'em down!
Post by: RadSav on August 05, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
Radsav you are misunderstanding me on almost everything I have said. I am not saying a two blade is the best. I am not saying that a WASP makes a tiny hole. I am not saying mechanicals are better than fixed heads. I am only trying to disprove BWHNTRS biased opinions that 1. Mechanicals are junk. And 2. Fixed heads always penetrate deeper. Both are wrong.
Colockumelk - I was not trying to dismiss anything you had said. Thus no copied quote. I was just hoping to clarify things a little bit as to the differences in heads. Or the lack of differences as the case often is. Sorry if it seemed I was picking on your thoughts or opinions. That was not the intention at all.
So often I think the desire to limit ones choices in hunting equipment is based wholly on emotion. I'm not a WDFW hater, but I often think fact takes a back seat in decision over fear and conjecture at many times. Many of these so called tests and testimonies we see and hear have no fact based results yet plant a seed of benefit or doubt about such products. My personal belief is that the individual bowhunter should have the right to chose for themselves just as rifle hunters are allowed to chose the bullets they prefer. As long as stray arrows are allowed to work their way out by restricting barbed heads and blades have a ground sharp edge I see no reason for restriction.
Sure there are broadheads I personally would never shoot (most of them actually). As there are bullets I would never shoot big game with. But, to believe that the fear of us losing our seasons or hunting rights because of a broadhead choice is unsubstantiated fear. As the benefits and negatives just don't exist beyond the hype and consumer marketing. And even the best built and designed broadhead on the face of the earth is worthless if the individual shooting it does not exhibit a willingness and dedication to keep it sharp.
Post by: colockumelk on August 05, 2012, 07:15:05 PM
Post by: bow-n-head on August 05, 2012, 08:14:34 PM
Let them make their own decision.
Glad I don't live in Washington.
Post by: throttlejocky20 on August 05, 2012, 10:35:54 PM
Post by: jess on August 05, 2012, 10:56:06 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 05, 2012, 11:41:27 PM
No for me. I never have to worry about a fixed bladed broadhead working after it leaves my bow. :twocents:
Does that mean you want to take away others right to chose for themselves? Or just "no" for you personally? Just curious to know if your vote is accurately answering the posted question. I'm not arguing either way. Just trying to clarify.
Post by: colockumelk on August 06, 2012, 05:30:51 AM
I never have to worry about a fixed bladed broadhead working after it leaves my bow. :twocents:
This is not true. Fixed blades fail too. Everytime you release that arrow no matter what type of arrow, broadhead you use etc. There is ALWAYS a chance of failure on the part of your projectile.
Post by: bearpaw on August 06, 2012, 06:30:20 AM
Lighted Nocks
I totally support that. IMHO, they offer the bow hunter no advantage in the hunt above regular nocks other than the ability to possibly see your arrow flight and see the location of the hit better, thus possibly enabling you to recover a larger percentage of wounded animals. That seems like a win/win to me, I cannot understand why anyone cannot support that.
Mechanical Broadheads
I cannot support them for western big game hunting. I've had hunters show up with these things and made them go to town and get legal broadheads. Then I found out they were sneaking them into the field. :bash:
One guy in Idaho arrowed a 6x6 bull and also arrowed a 26-28 inch mule deer on the same day a few years ago. Didn't kill either animal, the mechanicals hit heavy bone in both cases and it stopped the arrow. When I found out I was extremely pissed about that, both because they are illegal and because two animals were wounded that quality fixed blades would have likely killed.
IMHO, it's not just about how big of hole, or about how much penetration in gell, what matters in a big game broadhead is that it reliably penetrates no matter if you hit that perfectly angled shot correctly or if you accidentally hit the shoulder or some other heavy bone. I shot clear through both shoulders of my muskox with a muzzy as would many other good fixed blades, but I know at least some mechanicals would have stopped at the shoulder, or the mechanical blades would have broke off reducing the effectiveness of the broadhead. Maybe there is some new fangled mechanical that can take that kind of punishment, maybe not. But I know for a fact that some mechanicals cannot take hitting the bone.
What really matters to me about this issue is that I know mechanicals are more prone to "failure to kill" in certain curcumstances and that is the sole reason I am opposed to their use on western big game. I do not see them as a positive for recovering as many animals. They are not a win/win situation.
My apologies, but I cannot in good mind support mechanicals when I know they could result in a higher percentage of unrecovered animals. :twocents:
Post by: colockumelk on August 06, 2012, 07:07:09 AM
I would say that there are more than a few newer mechanical broadheads out there that have smaller cutting diameters to improve penetration and increase blade strength/durability and some that were designed specifically for elk (Grim Reapers, Ulmer Edge, Swhacker ) which are also built out west. Those heads out of a well tuned bow are more than capable of penetrating an elk shoulder. I think the majority of mechanical failures are due to the person doing the shooting, not the fault of the broadhead.
Post by: predatorpro on August 06, 2012, 07:21:45 AM
No appologies needed bearpaw. It was a very respectfully written and well though out argument against the use of mechanicals for western game. I don't necessarily agree with it but you did bring up good points.:yeah:
I would say that there are more than a few newer mechanical broadheads out there that have smaller cutting diameters to improve penetration and increase blade strength/durability and some that were designed specifically for elk (Grim Reapers, Ulmer Edge, Swhacker ) which are also built out west. Those heads out of a well tuned bow are more than capable of penetrating an elk shoulder. I think the majority of mechanical failures are due to the person doing the shooting, not the fault of the broadhead.
ted nugent the other day was outraged on his show that some states make this illegal! haha not that im a bow hunter....but he believes they are a better more ethical (deadly) broadhead than a fixed blade broadhead and why a state does not allow a faster more ethical kill he has no idea!.....id had to agree with him on that
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 06, 2012, 07:46:06 AM
No appologies needed bearpaw. It was a very respectfully written and well though out argument against the use of mechanicals for western game. I don't necessarily agree with it but you did bring up good points.:yeah:
I would say that there are more than a few newer mechanical broadheads out there that have smaller cutting diameters to improve penetration and increase blade strength/durability and some that were designed specifically for elk (Grim Reapers, Ulmer Edge, Swhacker ) which are also built out west. Those heads out of a well tuned bow are more than capable of penetrating an elk shoulder. I think the majority of mechanical failures are due to the person doing the shooting, not the fault of the broadhead.
ted nugent the other day was outraged on his show that some states make this illegal! haha not that im a bow hunter....but he believes they are a better more ethical (deadly) broadhead than a fixed blade broadhead and why a state does not allow a faster more ethical kill he has no idea!.....id had to agree with him on that
Although I have no problem with legalizing mechanicals, this type of argument ignores the primitive aspect and the increasing tendency away from that. I'm sure there are many devices that would make a clean, quick kill much easier, like scopes, crossbows, electrical devices, and firearms, etc. However, this is where the DFW (and a whole lot of WA bowhunters) has drawn the line. I also disagree that the mechanicals are necessarily more accurate. If you take the time to tune correctly, they aren't. Fixed blade broadheads are as deadly and accurate if they're tuned correctly. The Nuge is a great proponent of hunting and our 2nd Amendment rights. That does not make him the expert on ethics and primitive hunting technique and equipment. He rarely takes part in fair chase, un-fenced hunts on public land. He's got lots of cool stuff and all, but primitive? Not so much.
Post by: bearpaw on August 06, 2012, 08:06:31 AM
No appologies needed bearpaw. It was a very respectfully written and well though out argument against the use of mechanicals for western game. I don't necessarily agree with it but you did bring up good points.
I would say that there are more than a few newer mechanical broadheads out there that have smaller cutting diameters to improve penetration and increase blade strength/durability and some that were designed specifically for elk (Grim Reapers, Ulmer Edge, Swhacker ) which are also built out west. Those heads out of a well tuned bow are more than capable of penetrating an elk shoulder. I think the majority of mechanical failures are due to the person doing the shooting, not the fault of the broadhead.
So more or less the mechanical manufacturers and yourself do realize that some mechanicals don't penetrate as well and are weaker? :dunno:
It is a little unfair that I have not investigated some of these new mechanicals built for elk, but, lets say we legalize mechanicals, what is going to prevent an unknowing archer from getting one of these inadequate mechanicals that you and I both know are "less than best" for elk and going elk hunting? :dunno:
How would you write a law that allows the use of "adequate" big game mechanicals? :dunno:
Post by: buckfvr on August 06, 2012, 08:20:59 AM
Meaning even with superior mechanicals out there, tons of the junk ones will be bought and used.....
Post by: colockumelk on August 06, 2012, 09:49:33 AM
Currently there are no laws that keep people from using inadequate hunting setups whether or not its a fixed or mechanical broadhead or weighted arrow. IMHO a person shooting a 50lb bow with a 300 grain arrow with a fixed blade broadhead (legal in accordance with the game regulations) is far worse of an elk setup than a person who is shooting a 70lb bow with a 420 grain arrow with a mechanical broadhead.
No matter what type of broadhead a person uses shot placement is key. If the shot is bad no matter what type of broadhead a person uses most likely an animal will not be recovered. It is up to the individual on how well a broadhead performs. With todays mechanicals they are extremely reliable and failure rates are almsot non-existant. Most of the bad stories or failures we hear are not the fault of the broadhead. Just like with stories of fixed blade failures 9 out of 10 times the failure is not becuase the broadhead failed its because the person made a bad shot or didn't have their bow set up properly. Human nature is to blame your equipment not yourself.
If mechanicals were not efficient or humane enough then why is it that all Western states (including Alaska) allow mechanicals to be used except for 3 (WA, OR, ID) Like with all broadheads shot placement and quality trumps design and type of head any day.
Like I said I am merely playing the devils advocate here. If I were to go hunting in MT for elk (where mechanicals are legal) 125 grain Slick Trick Magnums would be in my quiver.
Post by: RadSav on August 06, 2012, 05:26:52 PM
So more or less the mechanical manufacturers and yourself do realize that some mechanicals don't penetrate as well and are weaker? :dunno:
It is a little unfair that I have not investigated some of these new mechanicals built for elk, but, lets say we legalize mechanicals, what is going to prevent an unknowing archer from getting one of these inadequate mechanicals that you and I both know are "less than best" for elk and going elk hunting? :dunno:
How would you write a law that allows the use of "adequate" big game mechanicals? :dunno:
What is currently stopping unknowing archers from purchasing Allen broadheads or Atom or shooting a traditional head without realizing they are only rough sharp out of the package?
Those archers you mention made a conscious effort to break the law. Putting themselves and your guide service in jeopardy. Would additional regulation have stopped them from that?
I've seen guys with broadheads that have had the same stainless blades installed and sitting in the quiver for five years. Duller than heck because they believe a high carbon stainless blade does not rust because it is called stainless. They unknowingly made that decision and ended up with an inadequate "legal" broadhead.
There is no maximum broadhead diameter. And, I have heard no demand for one. Even though a 1.5" steep angled broadhead required a very heavy arrow combined with a lot of velocity to penetrate bone or dense muscle.
Longbows are encouraged in this state even though few shoot them well and resulting penetration is often minimal.
No regulation restricts the use of varmint bullets for the taking of large game animals as long as bore diameter is met. You probably have more stories of that nightmare than you do broadheads that did not work.
We can not regulate people into making smart decisions. No matter what our intentions stupidity will show it's face. The government and good doers desire to save us from ourselves without fully understanding the depth of the human stupidity. For some, no amount of regulation can save them from themselves. Taking away the right to chose from those who can to protect those who can not never does work out in the end.
Expandable broadheads have been in production since the early sixties. Long before replaceable blade broadheads ever hit the scene. So they are in all reality more traditional archery equipment than many of the other "improved" models available as legal choices. They pose no real advantage, and their reliability is far greater than they used to be. Rear deployment heads like the Rage are perhaps even more reliable than many of the more popular fixed blade heads on the market. So many of the traditional blasts against them no longer apply.
Myself I would rather see a novice properly use a mechanical head than improperly use a traditional or modern fixed blade head. But we can not regulate the proper use of either of the three styles. So why regulate just one?
"In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable—what then? " George Orwell, 1984
Post by: huntnnw on August 07, 2012, 06:27:42 AM
Post by: grundy53 on August 07, 2012, 07:56:48 AM
yes, but Ill stick to my Shuttle T's :tup:
:yeah:
Post by: Jordanskylery on August 07, 2012, 10:38:36 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 07, 2012, 10:52:26 AM
Post by: bearpaw on August 07, 2012, 11:41:51 AM
Here's another story to illustrate the importance of sharp broadheads and this was with fixed blades, I think they were wasp. :chuckle: :chuckle:
I had a couple guys here bobcat hunting, we killed nice bobcats and they were still here when my next cougar hunter arrived and decided to go along. We hunted very hard, I'm talking all night and most of the day looking for tracks. We finally cut a nice tom track in the early afternoon and turned the dogs on the track, it was a pretty quick chase and in an hour or so we had the cat treed.
He wasn't very high in the tree, maybe a 15-17 yard shot and right in the wide open. The guy had some old compound bow but it was of legal draw weight. It was obvious the hunter wasn't an experienced archer, but he said he could make the shot so I tied the dogs back and he got ready.
He released and missed, arrow was gone.... it seems like the next arrow hit the tree, then maybe the next arrow he hit the cat and bounced off the cat and fell to the ground. :yike: :yike: :yike:
The cat was pissed, he jumped out of the tree and I cut the dogs loose immediately, they treed him again very quickly and we quickly got to the next tree. The hunter nocked another arrow, released and missed, arrow gone, nocked another aroow and it bounced off the cat again. Long story short, we recovered any arrows we could and we shot at this cat until we were out of arrows, only about three even hit the cat and none of them penetrated.
So we had a serious discussion and decided to get one of the other hunters recurves out of the truck. He hiked out, got the bow and brought it back to the tree. We had the hunter practice a few times at an old rotten stump and he was shooting pretty good so we decided to take a try at the cat. I thnk it was the first arrow he hit the cat good and killed it with the recurve immediately, the cat diodn't even get 20 yards from the tree. The difference was the broadheads were sharp.
I've got a few incredible stories regarding all types of weapons and it's usually a lack of practice and knowledge that resulted in less than satisfactory experiences. I definitely have to agree that the most important thing for bowhunters is to practice often and keep your broadheads sharp so nobody is telling stories like this about your hunt. :bdid:
(actually I can't remember what broadheads they were, it was a bowhunter45 joke) :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Whitetail freak on August 07, 2012, 10:40:27 PM
Post by: throttlejocky20 on August 08, 2012, 07:07:46 PM
If it was put into a patitian I wouldnt vote on it. Its a personal preferance.No for me. I never have to worry about a fixed bladed broadhead working after it leaves my bow. :twocents:
Does that mean you want to take away others right to chose for themselves? Or just "no" for you personally? Just curious to know if your vote is accurately answering the posted question. I'm not arguing either way. Just trying to clarify.
Post by: Mudman on August 08, 2012, 07:12:32 PM
Post by: colockumelk on August 12, 2012, 06:06:33 AM
YES I will stick with my WASP ... :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :yike:
You know WASP makes the Jackhammer which is a mechanical right. You could shoot mechanicals and still shoot the Wasp. :chuckle:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 12, 2012, 06:54:59 AM
Post by: predatorpro on August 12, 2012, 07:20:38 AM
Post by: colockumelk on August 12, 2012, 02:20:49 PM
Yeah I know ....they can sell all they want and I will never change my mind ;) :tup:
BOWHNTR its not cheating if you use the same brand. Just like its not cheating if its your own cousin. :chuckle: Wait a minute oops that's not a very good example. Oh darn. Forgot I'm not in Alabama anymore. :sry:
Post by: windygorge on August 18, 2012, 09:20:20 AM
NO for elk and moose
but somehow i can see people using them for elk and moose if they are holding a deer tag.
so my overall poll is a:
NO
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 18, 2012, 09:26:48 AM
i think they should make ballistic tip bullets illegal to shoot coyotes with...just kills them too fast...gives us an unfair advantage i think we should only be able to shoot full metal jackets so its more of a challenge:chuckle: :chuckle: But you may be killing a few peole with those full metal jackets once they blow threw the yote and end up 2 miles the road :chuckle: :dunno: AND I DOUBT THOSE MECHANICALS WILL (ALWAYS PENETRATE ) like a FULL METAL JACKET BULLET !! :chuckle:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 18, 2012, 09:30:50 AM
Colockum you kill me ... :chuckle:Sounds like when I was in high school ..went out with this chick for a couple months and go to our family reunion and :yike: and she show sup :o :dunno: come to find out it was my 3rd cousin :bash: :hello: Guess thats not all that bad is it :chuckle: :chuckle:Yeah I know ....they can sell all they want and I will never change my mind ;) :tup:
BOWHNTR its not cheating if you use the same brand. Just like its not cheating if its your own cousin. :chuckle: Wait a minute oops that's not a very good example. Oh darn. Forgot I'm not in Alabama anymore. :sry:
Post by: windygorge on August 18, 2012, 09:41:29 AM
Idaho - illegal for big game
Oregon - illegal
South Dakota - illegal for elk hunting
Washington - illegal for big game
Montana- legal
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 18, 2012, 09:42:36 AM
Post by: windygorge on August 18, 2012, 09:54:00 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 18, 2012, 10:01:59 AM
Post by: windygorge on August 18, 2012, 10:09:41 AM
Yes.. The primitive status went out the door years ago.. This state needs to catch up to the times..
Hunterman(Tony)
:yeah:
If you want to stay primitive, go right ahead but I don't see why you should infringe on my right to choose my broadhead of choice.
suprised comment from you double J. :'( even if that means more wounded BIG game?
Post by: windygorge on August 18, 2012, 10:13:35 AM
Post by: Battle Ready on August 19, 2012, 05:17:47 PM
Post by: Snapshot on August 27, 2012, 08:01:04 PM
this is kind of a shallow and selfish thread if you read all the comments. sounds like its not what is best for the game, but what is keeping people from shooting what they want regardless of the consequences. thats pretty sad... a sign of the times.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 28, 2012, 08:34:05 AM
this is kind of a shallow and selfish thread if you read all the comments. sounds like its not what is best for the game, but what is keeping people from shooting what they want regardless of the consequences. thats pretty sad
All due respects Windy, I don't get that at all. I do see a difference of opinion on the topic, but I'm not willing to call someone selfish just because they disagree with my side of the debate. Both sides believe their choice is what's best for the sport. The lighted nock people believe that the nocks don't affect shooting skills but do benefit the hunter in trailing and recovery. The no-lighted nock people believe that it's a further departure from traditional, primitive hunting. I don't see any selfishness, just opposing opinions.
Post by: buckfvr on August 28, 2012, 08:45:34 AM
Yes.. The primitive status went out the door years ago.. This state needs to catch up to the times..
Hunterman(Tony)
:yeah:
If you want to stay primitive, go right ahead but I don't see why you should infringe on my right to choose my broadhead of choice.
suprised comment from you double J. :'( even if that means more wounded BIG game?
OK.....lets allow everything you guys could dream of, then we will split the archery season in half.......half the season goes to new modern archery free style, the other half to traditional equipment ......now thats fair, and likely what youd get.
Post by: windygorge on August 28, 2012, 04:40:56 PM
Post by: sebek556 on August 28, 2012, 05:10:18 PM
Post by: windygorge on August 28, 2012, 06:01:58 PM
Hi from reality land, :hello: . All this will ever be is another pissing contest until the sportsman of this state stop doing little matches like this and unite as one voice and take back control of both our wildlife dollars being spent, and our sporting laws. Until then flame on guys this doesn't help anything, might even hurt the cause. :pee: :beatdeadhorse:
:tup: agreed. i will do right by me and hope others do right by them. im just ready to go elk huntin right now i can taste it!!... :bash: