Post by: h5c5o5 on August 21, 2012, 06:28:13 PM
In a pre elk hunting delirium I have been looking at new bow setups that maximize the kinetic energy (KE) of your arrow. I was busy laughing in a insane mad scientist manner when I stopped to ask myself if more KE was really going to change anything. I am shooting at 81 ft/lbs at the moment and was crafting theoretical bows that would pack 120+ ft/lbs wallops.
I guess my question would be, are there any shots you could take with a 120 ft/lbs bow that you wouldnt be able to take with an 80 ft/lbs bow (if we are talking about elk)? Will that force allow you to blow through shoulders now? Will it shear rib cages in two? Will it shift the killing potential of a bow more towards shock and trauma (like that of a rifle) or are we just talking bigger bleeding holes? What are your guys thoughts on the matter.
Cheers
Henry
Post by: lghtnquik on August 21, 2012, 10:08:42 PM
Second, NO, more elk have survived 300 Win Mags and Weatherbys than anyone would care to admit. With an arrow there is little room for error they are just that tough!
Post by: huntnnw on August 21, 2012, 10:39:45 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on August 22, 2012, 06:32:37 AM
Post by: h5c5o5 on August 22, 2012, 06:46:43 AM
Thanks again
Post by: coachcw on August 22, 2012, 08:08:33 AM
Post by: Johnb317 on August 22, 2012, 08:24:31 AM
Worry more about shot placement and accuracy. Practice practice practice
If you hunt with a pack practice with it on.
Post by: Recurve-Elk on August 22, 2012, 08:32:15 AM
Nope, there wouldn't be very much shock trauma, you are still dealing with razor blades and a stick. They are going to slice through. In fact there would probably be less trauma because the arrow would cut clean through. Bullets cause trauma from hydrostatic shock. A bullet does more of a "ripping"/"exploding" action through the vitals which turns the insides to jelly. Just watch a slow mo of ballistics gelatin, with an arrow, then with a bullet. You will see the difference.
Arrows can actually completely severe nerves and therefore cause much less pain. This is why animals often stand there like nothing happened, then just fall over dead.
All this being said. It is nice to have more KE in the event that one does make a less than preferable shot. Gives you more wiggle room so to speak.
Post by: Mxracer532 on August 24, 2012, 07:29:27 AM
Kevin also holds the world record for arrow flight. GUY IS A BEAST!
Post by: Recurve-Elk on August 24, 2012, 08:31:37 AM
Sorry guys but YES, you most definately can punch through both shoulders with an arrow. Will the average bow guy shooting the bow be able too? :dunno: But YES it has been done and yes the more KE (MOMENTUM) you can achieve the greater the odds are. For instance Kevin Strother (formally the lead designer for bowtech,Owner of Elite archery, Strother archery and K&K archery) did so a couple years ago. If I remember right 40 yard shot clean pass through right through BOTH shoulders of a large cow. Now the KEY POINT he was shooting his custom set up bow set at (if I remember this right) 165lbs :yike:) and like a 600gn arrow. So yes the more KE and momentum the better ur odds are. END OF STORY! Not saying you should go for those shots even if you can but yes it can change things! :twocents:He didn't ask if it would increase his odds. He simply asked if the setup would allow shoulder shots. He also wasn't talking about a 165lb bow, he asked if 120lbs would allow him to take that double shoulder shot. Sure it "increases" his odds, but is still a horrible idea. Have a broadhead get stuck in the shoulder, animal runs off, slowly dies of an infection and feeds the rats.
Kevin also holds the world record for arrow flight. GUY IS A BEAST!
So if we are talking about increasing odds, I think everyone can agree that more KE will increase your odds of taking risky shots and having them be successful harvests. Also that there has to be a point where you could take any shot you wanted if you had enough KE. That wasn't his question though.
Post by: h5c5o5 on August 24, 2012, 09:08:53 AM
Post by: Mxracer532 on August 24, 2012, 10:39:55 AM
Sorry guys but YES, you most definately can punch through both shoulders with an arrow. Will the average bow guy shooting the bow be able too? :dunno: But YES it has been done and yes the more KE (MOMENTUM) you can achieve the greater the odds are. For instance Kevin Strother (formally the lead designer for bowtech,Owner of Elite archery, Strother archery and K&K archery) did so a couple years ago. If I remember right 40 yard shot clean pass through right through BOTH shoulders of a large cow. Now the KEY POINT he was shooting his custom set up bow set at (if I remember this right) 165lbs :yike:) and like a 600gn arrow. So yes the more KE and momentum the better ur odds are. END OF STORY! Not saying you should go for those shots even if you can but yes it can change things! :twocents:He didn't ask if it would increase his odds. He simply asked if the setup would allow shoulder shots. He also wasn't talking about a 165lb bow, he asked if 120lbs would allow him to take that double shoulder shot. Sure it "increases" his odds, but is still a horrible idea. Have a broadhead get stuck in the shoulder, animal runs off, slowly dies of an infection and feeds the rats.
Kevin also holds the world record for arrow flight. GUY IS A BEAST!
So if we are talking about increasing odds, I think everyone can agree that more KE will increase your odds of taking risky shots and having them be successful harvests. Also that there has to be a point where you could take any shot you wanted if you had enough KE. That wasn't his question though.
Post by: Recurve-Elk on August 24, 2012, 04:09:56 PM
Yes I realize he wasnt talking about odds, but to say it cannot be a reasonable assuption that the 120ft/lbs of KE WILL NOT is a far stretch from the truth. There are ALOT of variables that go into this. How far is the shot? What broadheads? ECT.... At 120 ft/lbs of KE at 5 yards with a really good cut on contact head I would bet it would punch right through the shoulder and it would be a dead elk. Again this is my opinion. Should you take that shot on purpose? I guess thats for the guy behind the bow to decide. :twocents:Sorry guys but YES, you most definately can punch through both shoulders with an arrow. Will the average bow guy shooting the bow be able too? :dunno: But YES it has been done and yes the more KE (MOMENTUM) you can achieve the greater the odds are. For instance Kevin Strother (formally the lead designer for bowtech,Owner of Elite archery, Strother archery and K&K archery) did so a couple years ago. If I remember right 40 yard shot clean pass through right through BOTH shoulders of a large cow. Now the KEY POINT he was shooting his custom set up bow set at (if I remember this right) 165lbs :yike:) and like a 600gn arrow. So yes the more KE and momentum the better ur odds are. END OF STORY! Not saying you should go for those shots even if you can but yes it can change things! :twocents:He didn't ask if it would increase his odds. He simply asked if the setup would allow shoulder shots. He also wasn't talking about a 165lb bow, he asked if 120lbs would allow him to take that double shoulder shot. Sure it "increases" his odds, but is still a horrible idea. Have a broadhead get stuck in the shoulder, animal runs off, slowly dies of an infection and feeds the rats.
Kevin also holds the world record for arrow flight. GUY IS A BEAST!
So if we are talking about increasing odds, I think everyone can agree that more KE will increase your odds of taking risky shots and having them be successful harvests. Also that there has to be a point where you could take any shot you wanted if you had enough KE. That wasn't his question though.
You also have to consider more than just does it have enough energy. Will the broadhead break, bend, or splinter. Will the arrow bend, shatter, brake, or splinter. Where on the bone are you hitting. There is just way too many variables to give the plane answer, yes it will go through. It may, or it may not. You are right, more KE ups your odds though.
Would I take the shot, nope. Most wouldn't but I am sure there is those who would (I personally know several) who would).
Post by: Maybee-R on August 28, 2012, 07:43:09 AM
I would also not try a shoulder shot. Stick with a double lung or heart.
Post by: dille on August 28, 2012, 10:12:24 AM
Post by: Mxracer532 on August 28, 2012, 06:31:11 PM
KE wont help as much as KE with more momentum. You would have a better chance if you could increase both, More so then just increasing Kinetic Energy alone. Some will argue but you cant push a bowling ball through a wall unless it has some momentum to help penetrate. JMO.
I would also not try a shoulder shot. Stick with a double lung or heart.
Well put, now go kill a big bull already! O wait its not quite time. :chuckle:
Hopefully Dad and I tag out and I can come help. :dunno: