Post by: bearpaw on September 11, 2012, 02:28:06 PM
The Johnny King Buck made it's way to the Bowhunting.com booth during the 2012 Wisconsin Deer & Turkey Expo. Here you can clearly see the famous G2 and G3 tines that have kept this deer from being the largest typical of all time.
In what a saga that rivals that of many Hollywood break ups, it appears that the Johnny King buck is finally going to get it's due. In a story that's been in development for over 6 years, it looks like this buck will officially make the record books soon.
more: http://www.bowhunting.com/publisher/hunting-news/2012/8/31/johhny-king-buck-finally-to-see-boone-and-crockett-panel (http://www.bowhunting.com/publisher/hunting-news/2012/8/31/johhny-king-buck-finally-to-see-boone-and-crockett-panel)
Post by: Bigshooter on September 11, 2012, 02:34:38 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on September 11, 2012, 02:45:01 PM
Post by: Button Nubbs on September 11, 2012, 03:52:31 PM
Post by: huntnphool on September 11, 2012, 04:07:30 PM
Post by: bearpaw on September 11, 2012, 04:26:58 PM
Post by: highmuley on September 11, 2012, 05:01:25 PM
Post by: 400out on September 11, 2012, 06:30:32 PM
Post by: huntnphool on September 11, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
Post by: blacktailer on September 11, 2012, 08:44:09 PM
Post by: blacktailer on September 11, 2012, 08:45:40 PM
Post by: hunt4 on September 11, 2012, 09:20:10 PM
this guy does a pretty good job of explaining why he thinks it is a typical
Post by: huntnnw on September 11, 2012, 09:47:18 PM
that tine is not a seperate tine..its a abnormal and shares a common base with the g2..if this buck is allowed then the Alberta giant that guy arrowed a few years ago should also be allowed thats what took him out of the world record archery typical
Post by: hunt4 on September 11, 2012, 10:11:55 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv474%2FWoowoo1%2Fzaftbuckpic.jpg&hash=dbd602bdfeb5a2dad4a762e80f3acf74cb17f72e)
Post by: huntnnw on September 12, 2012, 01:22:54 AM
Post by: blacktailer on September 12, 2012, 06:03:23 AM
its not up to anyone who can score it one way or the other..for it to be non typ it has to have a certain % of abnormal points to qualify in the non typ category.
that tine is not a seperate tine..its a abnormal and shares a common base with the g2..if this buck is allowed then the Alberta giant that guy arrowed a few years ago should also be allowed thats what took him out of the world record archery typical
This is from B & C's website. Two different panels from ID and PA determined it was an abnormal pointt. I am just curious why the sudden reversal. Not arguing toe facts. Just seems like it shouldn't be so subjective...
Here’s a summary:
The highest and best use of Boone and Crockett Club’s records is providing conservation professionals with a gauge for measuring success. Science-based and time-proven, trophy records can indicate habitat quality, herd dynamics, and much more.
The King Buck was reviewed and scored using the same procedures used to score whitetails since 1950. It’s this consistency over time that makes Boone and Crockett Club’s records a valuable tool for game managers.
A panel of four official measurers personally examined the King Buck in Pennsylvania. On page 41 of the Boone and Crockett Club’s scoring manual, a rule states, “There are instances where a single point comes off the top inside edge of the main beam and is considered an abnormal point.” The panel unanimously determined that a point on the King Buck’s right side fit this description. Resulting deductions lowered the antlers’ final score well below the threshold of a World’s Record.
The trophy was accepted into Boone and Crockett Club’s records as a 180-class typical trophy. The hunter, Mr. Johnny King, later withdrew the buck from the records. King then reportedly sold the rack, presumably as an investment, to Mr. Jay Fish who began a campaign to dispute the score.
Fish shopped for a Boone and Crockett Club volunteer official measurer willing to perform an unauthorized re-scoring of the rack. In doing so, Mr. Ron Boucher crossed a longstanding Club policy and Code of Conduct. Moreover, he re-scored the rack incorrectly.
Official measurers on the Boone and Crockett Club’s staff in Montana and the chairman of the Club’s Records Committee reviewed photos of the antlers and the score sheet, and unanimously determined that Boucher was mistaken. The original entry score was accurate.
At Fish’s urging, another review took place by a panel of official measurers in Idaho. The panel unanimously agreed that the tine in question was, by rule, an abnormal point.
Club officials informed Boucher that the King Buck’s original score had been confirmed. Boucher, Fish, and others who continued to argue the ruling were invited to send new photos that might offer new evidence, but no photos were received.
Eventually, Boone and Crockett Club was forced to dismiss two individuals for violating the Club’s policies and Code of Conduct. It was not the first time that strong action has been taken to protect the integrity of the Boone and Crockett Club’s records program—and the trophy data used by so many professionals in science-based management of whitetails.
Post by: D-Rock425 on September 12, 2012, 06:52:04 AM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on September 12, 2012, 06:11:20 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on September 12, 2012, 06:34:22 PM
Post by: blacktailer on September 24, 2012, 01:18:53 PM
http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/featured_story.asp?area=news&ID=150 (http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/featured_story.asp?area=news&ID=150)
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 27, 2012, 07:59:27 PM
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/exclusive-king-buck-scoring-video?user=daniel93077%40yahoo.com (http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/exclusive-king-buck-scoring-video?user=daniel93077%40yahoo.com)
If that link doesn't work you can get to it here:
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/video-triggered-world-record-panel (http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/video-triggered-world-record-panel)
Article addressing the outcome:
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/opinion-king-buck-got-hosed (http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/articles/deer-news/opinion-king-buck-got-hosed)
Post by: SB on December 27, 2012, 08:18:43 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on December 27, 2012, 08:22:20 PM
Dandy buck for sure!
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 27, 2012, 08:35:33 PM
Post by: steeliedrew on December 27, 2012, 10:26:02 PM
Post by: RadSav on December 27, 2012, 11:06:51 PM
They did score it as a typical but they said both G-3's were "non-typical"... with that ruling it scored 180 net as a typical...without that ruling it would be a new world record.
That is the way I understand it. And I think I have to agree with that. Though I could probably care less one way or the other - It's one amazing creature!
The only thing that bugs me about the whole thing is the motivation behind all the controversy. This rack was sold to someone who is trying to make big money by reclassifying someone elses trophy. If it weren't for the monetary value of a world record rack this would have been settled six years ago.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 27, 2012, 11:42:42 PM
They did score it as a typical but they said both G-3's were "non-typical"... with that ruling it scored 180 net as a typical...without that ruling it would be a new world record.
That is the way I understand it. And I think I have to agree with that. Though I could probably care less one way or the other - It's one amazing creature!
The only thing that bugs me about the whole thing is the motivation behind all the controversy. This rack was sold to someone who is trying to make big money by reclassifying someone elses trophy. If it weren't for the monetary value of a world record rack this would have been settled six years ago.
I can certainly see the conflict of interest for the purchaser.....but I also see a conflict of interest for a higher ranking B&C official who may have made a premature call and now the organization could be trying to save face.
What I don't think is a conflict of interest is the fact that a number of respected and experienced measurers stepped up (Like Craig Cousins in the video) and said that the buck is a typical....and then clearly described why it is a typical using B&C's play book.... I have yet to see B&C offer as clear of an explanation as to why the G-3's are not typical. In fact they did everything they could to not be transparent. When they finally decided to panel score the buck they insisted that it be in private (which never happened in the past when panel scoring possible world records).
It's definitely an amazing animal..... I have no invested interest in the matter but I do think B&C (right or wrong) did their reputation no favors in the way they addressed this matter.
Post by: RadSav on December 28, 2012, 01:25:20 AM
He makes some sense out of much of the confusion. I just wish the rack had not been sold to Fish and was still in the possession of Mr. King. Though honestly I have never understood the bounty of possessing the fruits or trophy of someone else's labor. Where do you find pride of ownership in that case?
Nice post DBHAWTHORNE. I am glad you made the statement, "...I do think B&C (right or wrong) did their reputation no favors in the way they addressed this matter." They have been pushing a lot of members towards SCI. This whole thing is probably going to push even more people that direction. We can respectfully agree or disagree with Cousins. However, I think most of us will agree that B&C could have handled this in a manner that was more civil and definately with more class.
I had never gotten as good a look at that buck as I did tonight on that video. I had always thought that left side was more definitively non-typical. I was wrong! I am now swinging more toward "Typical". Thank you for posting those links.
Post by: Bigshooter on December 28, 2012, 01:27:20 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 28, 2012, 05:13:50 AM
and people think we get caught up on scores on here. Love the caption of why he sold the deer. It was becoming too much to handle fighting for justice....... :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on December 28, 2012, 05:16:24 AM
its not up to anyone who can score it one way or the other..for it to be non typ it has to have a certain % of abnormal points to qualify in the non typ category.
that tine is not a seperate tine..its a abnormal and shares a common base with the g2..if this buck is allowed then the Alberta giant that guy arrowed a few years ago should also be allowed thats what took him out of the world record archery typical
I think what he meant by the poll is if the g3s should be Typical or nontypical thus resulting in a 180 score versus 215 or whatever it was
Post by: bearpaw on December 28, 2012, 05:28:33 AM
its not up to anyone who can score it one way or the other..for it to be non typ it has to have a certain % of abnormal points to qualify in the non typ category.
that tine is not a seperate tine..its a abnormal and shares a common base with the g2..if this buck is allowed then the Alberta giant that guy arrowed a few years ago should also be allowed thats what took him out of the world record archery typical
I think what he meant by the poll is if the g3s should be Typical or nontypical thus resulting in a 180 score versus 215 or whatever it was
Yes, I should have specified "Should the g-3 be scored as typical or non-typical?"
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 28, 2012, 09:42:46 AM
Anyone else notice that Cousins probably had to cancel his credit card after making that video. :dunno: Nothing like making your point at the expense of your entire bank account :yike: Not a smart move there Bucko :o
:chuckle: I did notice that and thought the same thing.
He makes some sense out of much of the confusion. I just wish the rack had not been sold to Fish and was still in the possession of Mr. King. Though honestly I have never understood the bounty of possessing the fruits or trophy of someone else's labor. Where do you find pride of ownership in that case?
I wished it hadn't been sold either. I can understand wanting to own antlers. Some antler collectors hardly hunt but just love collecting antlers. They find them fascinating..as do I. I offered a guy some money for an Idaho dead head this year (probably 180 inch 4x4 whitetail frame...giant!!). Unfortunately he had already given it away for free to someone who knew what they were looking at. :yike: I found it fascinating because it was a 100% mountain buck.. no agriculture. I admit... Even though I didn't find it... I wanted it. Simply amazed by it.
Nice post DBHAWTHORNE. I am glad you made the statement, "...I do think B&C (right or wrong) did their reputation no favors in the way they addressed this matter." They have been pushing a lot of members towards SCI. This whole thing is probably going to push even more people that direction. We can respectfully agree or disagree with Cousins. However, I think most of us will agree that B&C could have handled this in a manner that was more civil and definately with more class.
These days I certainly lean more towards SCI. That being said in my dealings with B&C they have been very responsive and I do enjoy their online Trophy Search and subscribe to it every year. I personally wish someone would come up with a displacement method for measuring antlers.
I had never gotten as good a look at that buck as I did tonight on that video. I had always thought that left side was more definitively non-typical. I was wrong! I am now swinging more toward "Typical". Thank you for posting those links.
I also had never got as good look at the rack as I did in that video. I have seen photos that make it appear to be typical point and photos that make it appear to be a non-typical. After seeing it in that video and after hearing Craig's explanation I am 100% convinced it's a typical point unless B&C comes up with better explanation as to why it is not a typical point.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 28, 2012, 10:19:02 AM
"money grabbing shenanigan."
and people think we get caught up on scores on here. Love the caption of why he sold the deer. It was becoming too much to handle fighting for justice....... :chuckle:
After reading the story I think this is a reasonable explanation. I personally would like to see the buck get the recognition it deserves. The guy tried to have B&C look at it for three years. When Fish bought it B&C said that he was shopping for a score... Ironically when they said that he had never had it scored by a measurer and was only asking for it to be panel scored.
Post by: boneaddict on December 28, 2012, 10:22:38 AM