Post by: t6 on September 11, 2012, 08:53:28 PM
I hiked up on some private property where I had seen some good quality deer in the past. I admit I wasn't ready for the first buck. A small forked horn. Not a big deer but one I would have been proud to have taken with the bow in my first season. I didn't have an arrow knocked and by the time I got ready, the buck was out fifty yards and walking away. Never presented a shot.
After learning that quick lesson, I continued to another landing and quickly found another buck. This one was a beautiful 4x4. He immediately had me pegged so moving or trying to stalk closer was not an option.
I ranged him at 58 yards which was about 13 yards more than I had practiced or even had a pin set for. The angle was fairly steep (I'd guess it to be nearly 30 degrees) When he stood up and was broadside, I decided to try the shot. I missed. I was about three feet low.
I know what pin I used but I'd like to hear what more experienced hunters would have done.
Not terribly disappointed yet, It was still a good night. I saw five deer, two of which I would have been happy with.
How would you have set up the shot?
Post by: DoubleJ on September 11, 2012, 08:57:22 PM
Post by: Kola16 on September 11, 2012, 09:01:31 PM
Shooting at a distance I had not practiced, at an angle I had never shot, without the option of stalking closer, I would have passed on taking a shot. Shooting with parameters you don't know has the very real possibility of injuring an animal
:yeah: If I have not practiced a shot, I will not take it, and nobody else should either :twocents:
Post by: sebek556 on September 11, 2012, 09:02:26 PM
Post by: KFhunter on September 11, 2012, 09:03:58 PM
And they are right, you shouldn't be lobbing arrows at a deer unless you are well praticed at that range and elevation change. 58 yards uphill is a long shot for anyone.
You most likely, if you did hit the deer, would have wounded it and made it suffer.
That is what you did wrong, no harm done this time though.
I would suggest that you do some ambush style hunting and less stalking with the bow until you're more proficient at it.
Post by: DoubleJ on September 11, 2012, 09:15:10 PM
You are about to get a reaming from the H-W ethics nazi's.
And they are right, you shouldn't be lobbing arrows at a deer unless you are well praticed at that range and elevation change. 58 yards uphill is a long shot for anyone.
You most likely, if you did hit the deer, would have wounded it and made it suffer.
That is what you did wrong, no harm done this time though.
I would suggest that you do some ambush style hunting and less stalking with the bow until you're more proficient at it.
I didn't post mine from an ethics standpoint. I posted from a common sense standpoint. If you've never taken a certain shot before, why in the hell would you do it trying to hit an animal not having any idea what your arrow will do?
Post by: h20hunter on September 11, 2012, 09:16:58 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on September 11, 2012, 09:18:12 PM
Post by: Kola16 on September 11, 2012, 09:21:47 PM
I do apologize though. I don't mean to bash. I just didn't know any other way to post what was in my head. Sometimes I have difficulty softening things. If my post was read as attacking, I really didn't mean it that way as much as I meant it in a teaching way.
Sometimes the truth hurts, and it has to come out. I think that we have all found that out one way or another :rolleyes: :chuckle:
Hopefully this thread doesn't make it to far.
h20hunter has great advice. Learn and move on. Good luck to you down the road :tup:
Post by: h20hunter on September 11, 2012, 09:22:05 PM
Post by: KFhunter on September 11, 2012, 09:28:07 PM
I do apologize though. I don't mean to bash. I just didn't know any other way to post what was in my head. Sometimes I have difficulty softening things. If my post was read as attacking, I really didn't mean it that way as much as I meant it in a teaching way.
I thought my post as going to be first, but I got sidetracked and it ended up below yours.
nothing wrong with your post :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on September 11, 2012, 09:29:10 PM
Post by: h20hunter on September 11, 2012, 09:30:32 PM
Encourage, educate, support, advise.
Post by: sebek556 on September 11, 2012, 09:37:25 PM
http://www.archersadvantage.com/TipSheets/UpDownHill.htm (http://www.archersadvantage.com/TipSheets/UpDownHill.htm)
Post by: Igottanewknee on September 11, 2012, 09:40:15 PM
Post by: Buckmark on September 11, 2012, 09:40:41 PM
Stay within or under your effective range and you learn alot about the animals you hunt, hunting is much more than killing.
Having an animal inside 20yds without knowing your there is a huge thrill.
I feel like it is the most frustrating weapon choice, never a year goes by that animals are not in rifle range, but just out of bow range..
Post by: t6 on September 11, 2012, 09:51:02 PM
I've hunted with modern rifle a few times but can usually be found with a muzzle loader in hand. I've taken about 30 elk and 20 plus deer. I wanted to try archery hunting before my shoulder is completely torn up.
I wasn't really looking for an ass chewing, I was looking for advice on shooting at angles.
I apologize for not getting in more practice however, I was recovering from another surgery and didn't get healthy enough until a few months ago.
Post by: h20hunter on September 11, 2012, 09:54:29 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on September 11, 2012, 09:59:48 PM
I'm thinking nothing.... Most of the professional's will tell you what they think is the right thing to do. I am an amature like you(lots of experience though) and pretty sure that you did the best that you could. Every one of these guy's that are going to tell you that you did something wrong has done the exact thing that you did. They missed, they wounded an animal, they harvested an animal, hard to say.... Keep at it, enjoy your hunt, and do your best to fill your tag... LIKE THE REST OF US!!! Unless your are one of those professionals....
:rolleyes:
Post by: sebek556 on September 11, 2012, 10:00:21 PM
Post by: t6 on September 11, 2012, 10:01:36 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on September 11, 2012, 10:01:43 PM
:dunno: didn't think I came off giving a ass chewing, sorry if you took it that way. But being a experanced muzzle loader hunter, you should know your max is your max, end of story. and honestly the best thing for angles is a angle compensating range finder, no doing math in your head just click and your done. That and practice shooting angles.
I think I'm the one who came off like I was chewing ass. I really didn't mean to
Post by: DoubleJ on September 11, 2012, 10:02:35 PM
I appreciate the link... time to do some studying and more practice.
Where do you live? If you post that, I'm sure the guys on here can guide you to a good 3d course where you can practice all sorts of real world shots
Post by: sebek556 on September 11, 2012, 10:05:38 PM
I appreciate the link... time to do some studying and more practice.:tup: enjoy, and if you have your own target throw it in your rig, One of my favorite practices to do with friends is drive out in the woods, grab the target and toss it down a hill. No range finders, no calling the range. just shoot and see who ends up best :tup: then walk down past the target at a angle and shoot your way back up.
Post by: billythekidrock on September 12, 2012, 07:06:01 AM
Shooting at a distance I had not practiced, at an angle I had never shot, without the option of stalking closer, I would have passed on taking a shot. Shooting with parameters you don't know has the very real possibility of injuring an animal:yeah:
Post by: rippinlips22 on September 12, 2012, 07:35:31 AM
I appreciate the link... time to do some studying and more practice.
Good luck and keep at it! You will figure it out and will be successful!
Post by: Seabass on September 12, 2012, 01:29:18 PM
Post by: jackmaster on September 12, 2012, 02:18:49 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on September 12, 2012, 02:36:46 PM
Post by: ribka on September 12, 2012, 07:32:04 PM
Archery hunting is a completely different skill set and mentality than firearms or ml hunting.
Accurate Range estimation is crucial. I hear time and time again from friends that they are taking 60 to 100 yd shots at game. Response is always that they thought they could hit the deer or elk.
Perhaps the biggest mistake I see again and again by new archery hunters is that they shoot at alert game and game that is looking at them. I always advise to look down and not in animals ' eyes and wait for them to walk past if alert and wait for the animal to relax before taking the shot. :twocents:
I guess I should have mentioned that I am an experienced hunter. I've hunted with my Father since I was old enough to walk through the woods. (About 40 years)
I've hunted with modern rifle a few times but can usually be found with a muzzle loader in hand. I've taken about 30 elk and 20 plus deer. I wanted to try archery hunting before my shoulder is completely torn up.
I wasn't really looking for an ass chewing, I was looking for advice on shooting at angles.
I apologize for not getting in more practice however, I was recovering from another surgery and didn't get healthy enough until a few months ago.
Post by: t6 on September 13, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
I didn't switch from Muzzle Loading to Archery for a couple of the reasons mentioned. I drew the multi-season tag and thought it would be cool to try to take a deer with the bow before my shoulder is completely shot. Its on its way and I'm told there is no help or chance at repairing it, just too much damage.
I dont like hunting in the heat and probably wont do it again. I have pain from pulling the bow back but its been bearable so far.
I appreciate the advice and promise to keep practicing until I am able to take a deer.
Passed this morning on a small spike and two does.
Post by: mfswallace on September 13, 2012, 08:55:32 PM
I'm thinking nothing.... Most of the professional's will tell you what they think is the right thing to do. I am an amature like you(lots of experience though) and pretty sure that you did the best that you could. Every one of these guy's that are going to tell you that you did something wrong has done the exact thing that you did. They missed, they wounded an animal, they harvested an animal, hard to say.... Keep at it, enjoy your hunt, and do your best to fill your tag... LIKE THE REST OF US!!! Unless your are one of those professionals....:tdown:
Post by: kglacken on September 13, 2012, 08:55:48 PM
Lets keep at least one thread positive!For real! :yeah: A guy on here just wants some advice on how to make that shot more successful. Anyone willing to help him? I think he understands that you should practice a shot before you take it. :twocents:
Post by: DoubleJ on September 13, 2012, 08:56:59 PM
Post by: sebek556 on September 13, 2012, 08:57:13 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on September 13, 2012, 08:58:32 PM
sucks about the shoulder man, whats your current draw weight at? The reason I ask is my wife is shooting a Mathews passion at 45lbs, and she is still getting pass throughs on deer. Maybe if you drop your draw weight you could be more comfortable shooting? :dunno:
:yeah: I shoot 49lbs because of a bum shoulder
Post by: SGTDuffman on September 14, 2012, 04:29:20 PM
If that's not an option most of the newer range finders have angle compensators on them to help you figure out what range to hold for angled shots. Many of those can be specifically selected for certain bow speeds as well to get you as close as possible.
I've shot lots at the range from 10-60 yds and occasionally at 70 yds, but while hunting I won't go over ~45 yds. I've got lots of practice at 60, I'm just not comfortable taking that long of a shot on an animal. Too many variables I can't replicate on the range to get me confident at those ranges in the woods. I figure if can't routinely cover the group with my hand, it's not hunting range.
Post by: JJD on September 15, 2012, 09:08:31 AM
I'm thinking nothing.... Most of the professional's will tell you what they think is the right thing to do. I am an amature like you(lots of experience though) and pretty sure that you did the best that you could. Every one of these guy's that are going to tell you that you did something wrong has done the exact thing that you did. They missed, they wounded an animal, they harvested an animal, hard to say.... Keep at it, enjoy your hunt, and do your best to fill your tag... LIKE THE REST OF US!!! Unless your are one of those professionals....I too am in my first bow season, Thought I'd better give it a shot before I got too old to draw a 60 lb bow.
I am likely not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I do understand that if you ask for opinions, ya might want to be prepared to hear honest opinions. The opinions might not be what ya want to hear.
In less than optimal light, steep terrain, varying foliage, etc, judging distance can be tough. Only way to improve is practice geared to the way you hunt.
Note that the majority of experienced hunters (“professionals” as you call them) are often more successful than less experienced hunters. Yeah, the pros miss once in a while too. Part of hunting involves the unpredictable nature of animals. If they are tied to a tree decreasing said unpredictability, its called slaughter.
So your opinion is that where there’s a broadhead in the air, there’s hope? Just keep flinging them around and you’re bound to hit something sooner or later?
My advice to the original poster;
Glean what you can from the replies posted, some advice is founded in years of experience, some is pure bologna. You’ll figure it out.
JJD
Post by: Snapshot on September 16, 2012, 02:28:08 PM
Post by: t6 on September 16, 2012, 09:03:22 PM
Thanks for all the advice. Yesterday I saw ten deer in a two hour walk. Not one that I wanted to take.
Today was only one that I passed on due to distance. I forgot my range finder and was not confident in the distance.
T
Post by: HunterFisher on September 18, 2012, 08:34:25 AM
I didn't have an arrow knocked and by the time I got ready, the buck was out fifty yards and walking away. Never presented a shot.
After learning that quick lesson, I continued to another landing and quickly found another buck.
Nobody has touched on this one yet. That lesson will come undone the first time a blackberry vine trips you up with an exposed broadhead. I never walk through the woods with an arrow nocked, too dangerous. Only once has an animal bolted while trying to nock an arrow. That lesson taught me to slow down and move like a snail AFTER the animal relaxed.
Sounds to me from your recent posts that you have already adjusted your approach to the situation. Getting closer is definitely the key.
I'd suggest seeking out a bowhunter ed class next year. I had a 78 year old man in a class last year who had decades of hunting and bowhunting experience. He took the class "just in case he could learn something new." Pretty cool.
Post by: DoubleJ on September 18, 2012, 08:53:15 AM
I didn't have an arrow knocked and by the time I got ready, the buck was out fifty yards and walking away. Never presented a shot.
After learning that quick lesson, I continued to another landing and quickly found another buck.
Nobody has touched on this one yet. That lesson will come undone the first time a blackberry vine trips you up with an exposed broadhead. I never walk through the woods with an arrow nocked, too dangerous. Only once has an animal bolted while trying to nock an arrow. That lesson taught me to slow down and move like a snail AFTER the animal relaxed.
Sounds to me from your recent posts that you have already adjusted your approach to the situation. Getting closer is definitely the key.
I'd suggest seeking out a bowhunter ed class next year. I had a 78 year old man in a class last year who had decades of hunting and bowhunting experience. He took the class "just in case he could learn something new." Pretty cool.
I always walk with a nocked arrow and don't see this as an issue :dunno:
We debated this in a thread long ago and if I remember correctly, most members do the same.
Post by: RadSav on September 19, 2012, 03:26:56 AM
I wasn't really looking for an ass chewing, I was looking for advice on shooting at angles.
In getting to your original question there was a cut in yardage you needed to make for the 30 degree (I assume down hill) shot. Not knowing the details of your bow set up I can not be exact, but the cut should have been between 8 and ten yards. So 58 yards, 30 degrees down hill you'd have wanted to hold as if he were 48-50 yards on flat ground. So really if you have been practicing at 45 yards that's only 3 to 5 yards past what you are used to. Back before range finders we made that error all the time. Even at the distances we had practiced. Easy cure for that is to get a rangefinder with a trajectory compensator. They are getting quite reasonable these days.
The fact that you shot 3' low gives me a better idea of what you did wrong though. Even at 48# of draw your trajectory would not be 3' low in five yards. Shooting that low especially on a down hill shot usually means you tried to watch the arrow instead of following through and trying to keep your pin (or hold over in this case) on target. That happens to the best of us when big horns come into play. Years ago I shot 18" low on a huge blacktail on level ground at 18 yards. And "Yes" I had a pin for that and "Yes" I practiced at 18 yards. ;) I wanted so badly to watch my arrow hit that deer that I watched it right into the ground :bash: Sometimes big horns can turn a regular guy into a bumbling idiot.
Later that year I shot a P&Y blacktail at 48 yards while he slept on the other side of a log from me. I had to increase the arch of my arrow to get it over the log and still hit that deer in the vitals. I ignored my sights, changed my anchor, and short drew the 65# bow to what I guess was about 45-50#. I had never practiced that shot and of course did not have a "Pin" for that. And yet 20 yards from where he had been sleeping when I took the shot he laid dead as dead can get. One day your an idiot the next your a genius. That's just the way life is.
Post by: Stick em on September 19, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on September 19, 2012, 07:41:42 PM
Rule of thumb is uphill shoots high, down hill shoots low. So if your aiming down hill at an animal that's 30 yards, use your 40 pin. If your game is 30 uphill use your 20 pin.
This is exactly the opposite of what is true.
Post by: RadSav on September 19, 2012, 09:07:17 PM
Example: My Washington bow is a Bear Anarchy 68#/28.5" draw 450 grain arrow.
30 yards/20 degree downhill shot I hold for 27.9 yards.
30 yards/20 degree uphill shot I hold for 28.4 yards.
50 yards/30 degree downhill shot I hold for 42.4 yards.
50 yards/30 degree uphill shot I hold for 44.3 yards.
Post by: Todd_ID on September 20, 2012, 12:02:49 AM
Post by: DoubleJ on September 20, 2012, 07:01:28 AM
They both shoot high actually. Just at different rates.
Example: My Washington bow is a Bear Anarchy 68#/28.5" draw 450 grain arrow.
30 yards/20 degree downhill shot I hold for 27.9 yards.
30 yards/20 degree uphill shot I hold for 28.4 yards.
50 yards/30 degree downhill shot I hold for 42.4 yards.
50 yards/30 degree uphill shot I hold for 44.3 yards.
Thought you said you had a phone app for that. What is it?
Post by: RadSav on September 20, 2012, 08:19:08 AM
I missed two arrows at a 55 yard 10 degree uphill shot on a caribou 3-D target that the pros were nailing with no problem. Thought for sure I'd finally found a flaw in the program. Ended up being just as ToddID had mentioned. Used my arm instead of my legs and waist. Next day I did it properly and proved the program correct and the only flaw was my own poor form.
Not sure if AA has a phone app or not. Should be able to find out easily enough on their website.
Post by: wrongway on September 20, 2012, 08:45:42 AM
This is what needs to be done in order to make a good shot up or down hill. Form Form Form , as well as tuned equipment. Understanding the angle difference is very important to learn. I keep a cut sheet with me at all times when shooting at tournament's, this helps me understand cuts even better when hunting. Always remember to keep the bow arm up till the arrow hits the mark you are shooting at.
Post by: t6 on September 21, 2012, 08:27:07 PM
Thanks for all the advice and help. Now if I can just get the buck to come back.
T
Post by: RadSav on September 21, 2012, 08:37:16 PM
Now if I can just get the buck to come back.
Good luck with that ;) ;) ;)
Glad you are feeling more confident. Sometimes that's the only advantage you need.
Post by: sakoshooter on September 23, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
Shooting at a distance I had not practiced, at an angle I had never shot, without the option of stalking closer, I would have passed on taking a shot. Shooting with parameters you don't know has the very real possibility of injuring an animal
Totally agree w/dbl J