Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Bow Hunting => Topic started by: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 08:51:41 PM

Title: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 08:51:41 PM: OT2 software says my optimal spine is .2657.im shooting a strothers moxie maxed at 73 lbs with a 30 inch draw.my arrows are .300 spine beman ics hunters with 125 grain tips goin 280 fps.ive been playin around with my new rest n doin some bare shaft tuning.got my fp n bareshaft grouping together out to 40 yards.n even put some paper up at 20 yards n was getting perfect bullet holes.my only issue is my groups have grown alot.a good portion of the time i will scatter all over my bag target.now i understand that i am a big variable here,but my groups that are scattering are shots that feel solid n good.i seem to,most of the time be able to know my shot is off upon release.but recently not so much.n the kicker is i feel like my form is better than ever.everyone tells me its good enough n alla this but i feel like theres something missing.i am capable of 3 n 4 inch groups at 40 yards n i have made them many times in the past month but it seems to have all gone to crap.any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: lokidog on September 24, 2012, 09:21:31 PM: Have you checked your rest to make sure nothing is out of adjustment and ticking your fletches upon release?
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 09:25:03 PM: well.i just recently put a tt smackdown pro on n it was getting contact on the top of the containment bar due to my rest dropped while i was out in the woods.but now i think im pretty squared away.how would i be able to tell?
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: windygorge on September 24, 2012, 09:27:06 PM: do the bare shaft test. most accurate way of knowing
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 09:30:18 PM: explain please.i was bare shaft tuning today n my bareshafts were hitting left of my fletched but some minor adjustments n now they r hittin together at 40 yards
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: windygorge on September 24, 2012, 09:41:54 PM: Quote from: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 09:30:18 PM
explain please.i was bare shaft tuning today n my bareshafts were hitting left of my fletched but some minor adjustments n now they r hittin together at 40 yards

not sure what your fine adjustments were, but if you are shooting bare and fletched at 40 yards and they are hitting the same, your good. as long as your arrow is flying true and straight.
to bare shaft test, i cant remember if hitting left or right. but start by playing with your poundage. if you take off poundage and it fixes the problem, then good to go. if it get worst, then you will need to add poundage, or, shorten your arrow to make it stiffer. cut 1/4" off each time. the shortening, or stiffening should correct if you need more spline. assuming you have something to cut off.
the absolute best person to talk to is radsav. that man knows arrows like no other. give him a pm and he can help you.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 09:44:11 PM: thank you very much.i get this crap in my head n it just stresses me out to no avail.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: coachcw on September 24, 2012, 09:47:18 PM: take your 125's off and put 100's on if your groups tighten up your underspined
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 09:52:43 PM: well that makes sense 2.i think the old lady has 100 grn fp. i cant get by with 100 grain tips though.so if it turns out to be the the case i will have to be buildin a new arrow.i hope i can make these ones work
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: coachcw on September 24, 2012, 10:01:52 PM: remember you need to be at close to 440 grains at 73 lbs
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 24, 2012, 10:04:24 PM: understood.im only at 450 now so i aint got much wiggle room unless i find a dif shaft ive got a decent foc right now also n wouldnt be able to get that from the other spines ive found without bn well over 500 grains
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: coachcw on September 24, 2012, 10:08:31 PM: I shoot carbon express 350 maxima hunters with a 30 inch draw at 70 lbs with wraps and 100 grain bh and wraps i'm right at 420 with no spine issue
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2012, 12:17:44 AM: Yes, you are under spined.

Yes, you can go to a 100 grain head if you are shooting Blazers or similar, no wrap and the Vibrake insert. That would still give you a little over 10% FOC. Gives you about 2 pounds more to work with. Bad news is you will still be under spined.

No, you are not under spined enough to be effecting your grouping if your bare shaft testing is good to 40 yards.

No, you are not under spined enough to effect your grouping while maintaining perfect form.

1.5 turns backing off your poundage will take you to the 300's optimal spine.

Now you get the question everyone claiming to be 30" draw gets from me.
Q: Are you 6'3", taller or built like a gorilla?

I would venture to guess you are looking at a form or fit issue and not a spine issue. I am impressed that you are tuning your bow well enough to get the bare shaft grouping together. That's nearly impossible to do with a long, weak spined, all carbon arrow. So I am not worried about your bows tuning, rest tuning, cam timing, limb deflection or the usual Strothers riser flex.

Other questions to narrow it down without watching you would be:
Do the flyers have a consistant location of impact?
Do you shoot with a wrist sling?
Where is the trigger of your release located (finger tip, first knuckle, second knuckle)?
Is your bow hand stiff, tight or relaxed at the grip?
Are you shooting these large groups with bow quiver and target quiver or just one?
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: Todd_ID on September 25, 2012, 01:50:31 AM: Or is it as simple as your NEW bow was tuned perfect, but the string stretched causing new tuning/contact issues? A tiny bit of lipstick on the edge of each vane will transfer to the contact point on the rest or bow very well, and you can generally tweak either nock alignment or rest timing (length of rest cord) to get rid of the contact. :twocents:

Oh, and another :twocents: is to use a lipstick that your wife won't be looking for anytime soon: the bright red stuff that she used like elk scent to attract you all those years ago but you haven't seen since the "I do" won't be missed.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: lokidog on September 25, 2012, 07:03:38 AM: Quote from: Todd_ID on September 25, 2012, 01:50:31 AM
Or is it as simple as your NEW bow was tuned perfect, but the string stretched causing new tuning/contact issues? A tiny bit of lipstick on the edge of each vane will transfer to the contact point on the rest or bow very well, and you can generally tweak either nock alignment or rest timing (length of rest cord) to get rid of the contact. :twocents:

Oh, and another :twocents: is to use a lipstick that your wife won't be looking for anytime soon: the bright red stuff that she used like elk scent to attract you all those years ago but you haven't seen since the "I do" won't be missed.

I think lipstick would work better on the rest and see if it shows on the fletches.... just my experience.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: Fullabull on September 25, 2012, 09:08:33 AM: I think Radsav is right, there must be something else going on with your form or rig. I'm shooting a 70# EVO with Full metal Jackets (300's at 470gpi). The furthest I shoot at targets is out to 70 yards and they fly fantastic. I can also shoot my old Infused 400 arrows at around 405gpi and they fly great also. Take all the things Radsav said into consideration. Could be as simple as torching the release, or how you grip your bow.

When I first started tuning my EVO my center shot was giving me fits. My arrows grouped ok but the further the target got away the groups got bigger. I have an old style tool for setting the center shot but I would not believe what it was telling me. Once I decided the tool was smarter then I was, everything fell right into place and it's been a love affair ever since.

Good luck...
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 03:37:32 PM: Quote from: RadSav on September 25, 2012, 12:17:44 AM
Yes, you are under spined.

Yes, you can go to a 100 grain head if you are shooting Blazers or similar, no wrap and the Vibrake insert. That would still give you a little over 10% FOC. Gives you about 2 pounds more to work with. Bad news is you will still be under spined.

No, you are not under spined enough to be effecting your grouping if your bare shaft testing is good to 40 yards.

No, you are not under spined enough to effect your grouping while maintaining perfect form.

1.5 turns backing off your poundage will take you to the 300's optimal spine.

Now you get the question everyone claiming to be 30" draw gets from me.
Q: Are you 6'3", taller or built like a gorilla?

I would venture to guess you are looking at a form or fit issue and not a spine issue. I am impressed that you are tuning your bow well enough to get the bare shaft grouping together. That's nearly impossible to do with a long, weak spined, all carbon arrow. So I am not worried about your bows tuning, rest tuning, cam timing, limb deflection or the usual Strothers riser flex.

Other questions to narrow it down without watching you would be:
Do the flyers have a consistant location of impact?
Do you shoot with a wrist sling?
Where is the trigger of your release located (finger tip, first knuckle, second knuckle)?
Is your bow hand stiff, tight or relaxed at the grip?
Are you shooting these large groups with bow quiver and target quiver or just one?
thank you radsav,i am 6ft6 so from what i understand i am actually have pretty short arms.
i dont use a wrist sling on this bow,it kinda bothers me.i touch just my index n thumb together n the bow comes onto the smaller pad of my pad at full draw.
im shooting a rhino xt n i have it adjusted to where i can wrap my finger around at the second knuckle.i have the medium spring n have it adjusted with no travel.i have a tightspot quiver that is most always on my bow,but for the last few days,n with the problems im having it has not been on.
i feel like i have what would be considered a relaxed grip.no fingers touch the bow.at full draw i rotate and push into a low wrist hold and it feels rock solid.
thank you again.any advice is much appreciated.im sure i sound like a bonehead with some of this stuff.but ive only had a bow in my hands for about three months.i cant sleep at night if i feel my bow is not up to par.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2012, 05:12:54 PM: Welcome to the world of being an "archery seam head". The biggest advise I can give is this, "Just say NO!...to Archerytalk". Should be renamed Archeryargument with the catch phrase, "Only 1% of our members know what they are talking about and 99% think they do. So enjoy the adventure." Mike Blanton and I discussed writing an article called, "How Archerytalk Took Down the Archery Industry".

At 6'6" and 30" draw length you must have short arms :yike: But, that is far better than being 5'11" and shooting 30" just for the added speed. A lot of things go wrong when you are drawing too far. Only real thing wrong with being short on your draw length is loss of speed - Big Whoopie!

You did not mention if your wide groups had consistant fliers. If you do that really helps target form issues.

You shoot no wrist sling (though few use one correctly) that combined with the mention of rotating and pushing leaves room to expect some inconsistancies. You always want the bow to grip you and never the other way around. There is no way a person can grip, push or rotate a bow the exact same day in and day out under all conditions. But if you allow it to grip you with your hand completely relaxed it is amazingly consistant.

Sounds like you have your release set up perfectly :tup:

So are you still having problems with your Tightspot quiver off the bow?

You are doing a lot of things right. And for someone who has been shooting for just a few months it sounds as though you are shooting well. It takes some time to get your subconscious to run on auto pilot. So it may be something as simple as your conscious mind fighting with your subconscious mind during times when your focus in not 100%.

I am not sure if Randy Ulmer's web page still gives you access to his past articles in Petersen's and Bowhunter. If it does I strongly recommend reading all the articles he has written on "Shooters Mantra" and the "Capital 'T" in form. I can't think of anyone since Al Hendersen that can write instruction so clearly with the ability for everyone regardless of experience to understand. He is so good that my shooters mantra is "I am Randy Ulmer!" :chuckle:
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 05:24:15 PM: im not noticing any consistency in flyers.i try n watch individual arrows i see a flier n my groups really seem to just be random.they go a little more consistently smaller since lowering poundage but i really hate bn able to pull my arrows out with ease.it makes me feel like its going to bounce off my elk in november.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2012, 05:37:19 PM: Quote from: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 05:24:15 PM
it makes me feel like its going to bounce off my elk in november.

Take it from the elk killin' Squaw who shoots 24.5" at 50#. IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!!
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2012, 05:41:17 PM: Sounds like you might want to start using a nose button/kisser button for a while to help you find a more consistant anchor point. And get yourself a wrist sling!
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 07:17:27 PM: boy,i brought my bag target to my friends house n what you said about my grip realy made sense.i stopped contorting it n let it really felt repeatable n natural.i then focused on takining the tension out of my shoulders n dropping them.my groups shrank alot.haha,it was all me.its a dream to pull 1 n a half turns out 2.i really didnt like the idea of lowering poundage but,hell ive shot 50 arrows n the last little bit n i didnt feel fatigued.i had the old lady take some random pics of me shooting so maybe you guys can critique my form but i cant for the life of me figure out how to post pics
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 07:57:21 PM: here it is.my shop wants to put my in a half inch longer draw.im at 30 inches right now.im scared to do so but maybe thats why a part of my inconsistant form
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 08:00:14 PM: oops
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: coachcw on September 25, 2012, 08:04:46 PM: It sounds like you may be longer than 30inches being 6.6. as rav said anchor is key a kisser will help for sure as well as the peep . some shops will stick you in a bow because its what they have . before you change your draw length you could just try a bigger dloop changing you anchor . i'd try shooting at a small dot too aim small miss small. if you need a good guy to check your draw and set up give denton a call at rockcreek archery in enumclaw he knows his stuff.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 08:11:24 PM: ya radsav im going to heed his advice on the kisser button,ive got to go to the shop on friday anyhow.so im guna havem set me up with one.im kinda hopin i need a longer draw so i can get into my cams more,even though it will probably bring me right back to under spined again n my current arrows may not work.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: coachcw on September 25, 2012, 08:18:46 PM: your into your cams just fine . by adding loop you wont change spine
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 08:24:21 PM: how much would you suggest?but do u realize how much more bad ass id be if i could draw 33 inches?just kidding there.i would really like to hear that i need a ton more draw.but the d loop seems a more sensible approach.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: windygorge on September 25, 2012, 08:27:12 PM: your elbow is way to high. it should be in line with your arrow. something is amiss. you look cramped or something. maybe draw length is an issue.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: windygorge on September 25, 2012, 08:28:20 PM: i would say you need longer draw... :twocents: go try a different bow out at the shop.

seeing these pics rad will give you the scoop on waz up.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: snarkybull on September 25, 2012, 08:50:01 PM: it looks to me like you are torqueing the release. i had that problem for a month this year after shooting the exact same setup flawlessly for the 3 previous years. i had to make myself not touch any part of the release except the trigger. if your palm is gripping it and torqueing it instead of letting it go completely straight...bad things can happen. just my :twocents: based on some bad experience.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 09:45:38 PM: figured out how to drop my elbow from some advice off archery talk.hows this look?
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 10:00:40 PM: i was told i want to anchor with my index knuckle behind my jawbone.is this true?if so i need to raise my peep a ton but i like it n it allows me to bend my bow arm.
Title: am i underspined?
Post by: briancorneal on September 25, 2012, 10:04:24 PM: You have no spine....or backbone. Lol
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 10:06:03 PM: i think i have found a perfect form,n now the old lady is going to kill me if i dont stop makin her take pictures of me.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: deerslyr on September 25, 2012, 10:23:07 PM: Ive noticed that every ones form is different, there is no "perfect" form IMO. You just have to find what works for you and consistently shoot the same way EVERY time. I went through several different form techniques over the last 2 years before I found the "one" I anchor with a kisser button at the edge of my mouth, nose at the tip of my string, and I put my thumb on a knot on the back of my head, strange I know, but it works for me.The key is consistency and perfect practice.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2012, 10:26:25 PM: There you go!!! Took me a while to respond as I was thinking to myself, "Oh my goodness! Where do we start."

Last picture looks very nice indeed. Still some little things we can address tomorrow over the phone, but way to do your homework :tup:

You could add 1" in draw length if you wanted. I don't think that would hurt you one bit. In fact it will probably make you more comfortable. You have room with that rest to do it without changing arrows. But, you'd be playing that spine game again. I'll run some numbers tonight and see how much of an effect that would make.

As I mentioned before, there is little problem with drawing short if your form is good. Just not as comfortable as you could be. No such thing when your draw length is too long.

Wait on that kisser for now. We will work on the form and then worry about the anchor. Which by the way looks great.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 10:33:26 PM: thank you radsav.man i feel like the last 2 days ive come along ways with both of these forums.i cant wait to fling some arrows n see what happens.hell today i was slappin arrows with the form i started with.u guys have really opened my eyes to alot here.thanks again
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 25, 2012, 10:40:55 PM: Man! Looked at the pictures again. I can not believe the level of improvement between 8:00 picture post and 10:00 pictures. That's awesome.

BTW - remind me never to piss you off. Looks like you've spent a little time in a cage.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 25, 2012, 10:51:29 PM: got nuthin but love in me brother.that improvement wouldnt be happenin like this if it wasnt for you and others on these sites.thank you again.im typin my specs into the archery calculator n its tellin me i am losing no speed droppin 6 lbs off my draw weight.i dont think that could be correct,but if it is im never shooting over 70 lbs again.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: windygorge on September 26, 2012, 05:04:14 AM: nice. way nicer form on your 10oclock. looks like your relaxing your bow arm more which makes you not reach at your bow string by stretching your neck out. a little more length and you will be perfect. :tup:
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: bullfisher on September 26, 2012, 05:51:36 AM: [The biggest advise I can give is this, "Just say NO!...to Archerytalk". Should be renamed Archeryargument with the catch phrase, "Only 1% of our members know what they are talking about and 99% think they do.
[/quote]
Hahahaha...
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: bowjunkie on September 26, 2012, 04:31:20 PM: im 6'5" 31" draw 390fps 73lb pull and 100grain tips i shoot a 300 beeman with no issues i had a simalar problem my bow tuned perfect to one limb at 71 lb and the other at 73 lb and i could be wrong but i beleive he called it reverse canter my apologies if i am not refering to the real name maybe someone here can correct me on what that is called
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: Fullabull on September 26, 2012, 05:23:12 PM: That's some great improvement from first to last picture :tup:
Your a big guy and looks like you are holding with your arm more than your back muscles. Engaging your back muscles will help you relax your arm and release hand more to so you don't torgue your release with your hand/forarm muscles. This will make your release more smooth :)

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 26, 2012, 06:55:56 PM: thanks for that.i think im gettin it down.check out my last group of the evening at 40.def not my average yet,best of the night.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: LeeMajors on September 27, 2012, 02:20:20 PM: Quote from: bowjunkie on September 26, 2012, 04:31:20 PM
im 6'5" 31" draw 390fps 73lb pull and 100grain tips

390fps eh? Did you mean 290?
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: bowjunkie on September 27, 2012, 02:44:13 PM: my bad 290
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 27, 2012, 03:07:08 PM: It's the internet. I would have stuck with 390fps and defended it till my last breath :chuckle: Now I see why you are on H-W. You are too dang honest for Archerytalk ;)
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: LeeMajors on September 27, 2012, 03:07:27 PM: I was thinking I was doing good with 301 fps then you scared me!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: bowjunkie on September 27, 2012, 04:46:14 PM: thats 290 fps with a 750 grain arrow :chuckle:
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: RadSav on September 27, 2012, 05:12:01 PM: Quote from: bowjunkie on September 27, 2012, 04:46:14 PM
thats 290 fps with a 750 grain arrow :chuckle:

That's better!!! :IBCOOL:
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on September 27, 2012, 07:23:14 PM: holy crap i had to move my rest like half an inch to broadhead tune.seems wierd when i had bareshafts hittin with my current tune.but damn all this help has my sight picture so much more steady.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: windygorge on September 28, 2012, 05:42:14 AM: shouldn't have to move anything except sights.
in a nut shell, here's what i do. others do different, but this is my :twocents:

1. paper tune. if your shooting drop away rest, you should be shooting darts in the paper. if you don't have a drop away, i suggest getting one. makes life way easier

2. sight in your bow

3. bare shaft test. get your bare shooting same as fletched. do this test to 20 yards

4. readjust sights as required.

5. do all the above and you are good to go.

with your draw length and other variables, your FOC of your arrow might be weird. Let Rav figure that one out for you. i will screw it up if i do. FOC is important for arrow flight stability.
Title: Re: am i underspined?
Post by: earlmarne on October 06, 2012, 12:25:47 PM: well,i got my arrows back from whitetail plus yesterday with my new phathead broadheads .i decided to download eastons tuning guide n start from scratch.within a couple hours ive got my rest back closer to center shot n got my broaheads n bareshafts n fieldpoints all grouping together out to 38 yards so far.im really happy.on a side note,these phatheads n heavier arrows are smashing stuff.i just got a rhinhardt block bout 2 months ago n my arrows are coming out the back of it.i wonder if this constitutes a new block?one thing though.these phatheads are louder then my shuttle ts,not too worried about it though.i also miss my target at first with a bareshaft at 20 yards n went through my wheelbarrow,the arrow is in great shape still due to the footings that got installed.thanks guys for all your help.now i just got to wait for my black gold ascent n vengeance head to get here.