Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 03:20:05 PM
Sincerely,
Jason Phelps
Post by: buck man on November 18, 2012, 03:22:20 PM
Post by: golfguy0912 on November 18, 2012, 03:22:38 PM
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 03:27:50 PM
95% of the mature bucks (3-1/2 years or older) are killed on these four days.
The bucks are very vulnerable and will not leave the open cuts if a hot doe has been there. I passed on two 2-points only for them to be shot by hunters behind.
Many die hard blacktail hunters around here also agree that the season needs to be removed.
Post by: golfguy0912 on November 18, 2012, 03:29:44 PM
In this area (Willipa Hills) I would venture to guess that 80% of the bucks killed are killed in these 4 days.
95% of the mature bucks (3-1/2 years or older) are killed on these four days.
The bucks are very vulnerable and will not leave the open cuts if a hot doe has been there. I passed on two 2-points only for them to be shot by hunters behind.
Many die hard blacktail hunters around here agree that the season needs to be removed as well.
makes sense.
Post by: addicted2hunting on November 18, 2012, 03:35:18 PM
Post by: Odell on November 18, 2012, 03:37:19 PM
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 03:44:03 PM
It is our (mine and many other local hunters) opinion the herd is well below carrying capacity. I have hunted in the same exact area for the last 20 years and the decline of deer numbers has been exponential. Talking with guys like my grandpa and old timers that have hunted the area for 60-70 years say that the numbers were steady until the mid '90s.
Post by: washelkhunter on November 18, 2012, 03:46:47 PM
In this area (Willipa Hills) I would venture to guess that 80% of the bucks killed are killed in these 4 days.
95% of the mature bucks (3-1/2 years or older) are killed on these four days.
The bucks are very vulnerable and will not leave the open cuts if a hot doe has been there. I passed on two 2-points only for them to be shot by hunters behind.
Many die hard blacktail hunters around here also agree that the season needs to be removed.
Im confused. So we are not supposed to be shooting the deer? And yes, i venture to say that you are just guessing. You make many generalized unproven statements here with no factual data whatsoever to support your assertion. 95% of what population density exactly? Again 80% of what population density? Bucks are vulnerable! :o Who's team you batting for here, HSUS, peta? You got nimby-itis?
Post by: Curly on November 18, 2012, 03:47:23 PM
I'd rather see them eliminate the taking of does for archery. :twocents:
Post by: Odell on November 18, 2012, 03:48:18 PM
Post by: grundy53 on November 18, 2012, 03:56:46 PM
"herd is doing fine" needs to be defined.
It is our (mine and many other local hunters) opinion the herd is well below carrying capacity. I have hunted in the same exact area for the last 20 years and the decline of deer numbers has been exponential. Talking with guys like my grandpa and old timers that have hunted the area for 60-70 years say that the numbers were steady until the mid '90s.
:yeah:
Post by: grundy53 on November 18, 2012, 03:58:23 PM
In this area (Willipa Hills) I would venture to guess that 80% of the bucks killed are killed in these 4 days.
95% of the mature bucks (3-1/2 years or older) are killed on these four days.
The bucks are very vulnerable and will not leave the open cuts if a hot doe has been there. I passed on two 2-points only for them to be shot by hunters behind.
Many die hard blacktail hunters around here also agree that the season needs to be removed.
Im confused. So we are not supposed to be shooting the deer? And yes, i venture to say that you are just guessing. You make many generalized unproven statements here with no factual data whatsoever to support your assertion. 95% of what population density exactly? Again 80% of what population density? Bucks are vulnerable! :o Who's team you batting for here, HSUS, peta? You got nimby-itis?
***********************No Name Calling****************
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 03:58:32 PM
:o Who's team you batting for here, HSUS, peta? You got nimby-itis?
I'm going to bat for the deer herd. I never said we shouldn't be shooting deer (might want to do a little research). I'm concerned about the deer numbers going into the future. I think about my kids and the hunting opportunities they are going to have.
Probably not the right guy to question on my data. I spend a little bit of time in the woods (scouting, hunting, work, etc...). I am also very tied in to the hunting community and talk and pay attention to many hunters. The numbers are guesses but I am very close. I live on the edge of a tree farm that only allows access to it's employees and it is very easy to track what is killed.
Post by: Huntbear on November 18, 2012, 03:59:54 PM
However, those 4 days can be very fruitful and may be the only time hunters get a chance to put meat in the freezer....
NOW, if you are willing to kill all late season rut hunting, then maybe we can talk.. but if you are going to allow the muzzy guys and the archery guys their late seasons when the bucks are STILL rutting, then your argument is completely invalid. It comes across as trying to screw the modern guys, and with all the in fighting between the different groups, you think this will end well?
This season used to coincide with the last 4 days of elk season.. was a lot less pressure on the deer, as most guys would only take a buck if the opportunity presented itself, not actively hunting the deer...
Now, if you want to make a specific youth hunt, that is great, have always been for youth hunts... but then if it is truly about the herd populations, we need to stop all taking of does... however, in my view, the Blacktail populations are exploding, with logging on private timberland and state land... And yes you will get people killing a few big 3x or 4x bucks.. but the true monsters are still not getting wiped out...
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on November 18, 2012, 04:10:15 PM
Post by: bearmanric on November 18, 2012, 04:15:29 PM
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 04:15:55 PM
I don't isolate a certain user group and think of the hunters harvest as a whole. I know the local herd takes a beating from the rifle hunters and the archery and muzzleloader hunters take just a few.
however, in my view, the Blacktail populations are exploding, with logging on private timberland and state land... And yes you will get people killing a few big 3x or 4x bucks.. but the true monsters are still not getting wiped out...
You will have a hard time convincing me of this. I hunt from the coast to the Pacific Crest and have many friends that hunt the same areas.
I know a guy who has harvested 9 P&Y blacktail in the last 11 years. He talks about the numbers declining just in the last 15 years.
From my own experience I saw 30 -35 deer a day in 1995. Now I am lucky to go out and see 5 deer in a day.
Post by: washelkhunter on November 18, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
Probably not the right guy to question on my data. I spend a little bit of time in the woods (scouting, hunting, work, etc...). I am also very tied in to the hunting community and talk and pay attention to many hunters. The numbers are guesses but I am very close. I live on the edge of a tree farm that only allows access to it's employees and it is very easy to track what is killed.
Thats just it. You dont have DATA, you have part time observations in small areas. Again numbers taken have to be weighed against the total population(?). And hey, everyone knows it was always better back in grandpas day right?
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 04:17:49 PM
So why should you be allowed to hunt rutting elk in september. Rick
The weapon you are allowed to use during those times are balanced with the season length to control harvest. Now if you let all tag holders use a rifle it wouldn't work.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 04:19:16 PM
Probably not the right guy to question on my data. I spend a little bit of time in the woods (scouting, hunting, work, etc...). I am also very tied in to the hunting community and talk and pay attention to many hunters. The numbers are guesses but I am very close. I live on the edge of a tree farm that only allows access to it's employees and it is very easy to track what is killed.
Thats just it. You dont have DATA, you have part time observations in small areas. Again numbers taken have to be weighed against the total population(?). And hey, everyone knows it was always better back in grandpas day right?
The area has been logged for the past 100 years. The carrying capacity should be close to the same.
Post by: GEARHEAD on November 18, 2012, 04:21:39 PM
Post by: grundy53 on November 18, 2012, 04:22:18 PM
John,
I don't isolate a certain user group and think of the hunters harvest as a whole. I know the local herd takes a beating from the rifle hunters and the archery and muzzleloader hunters take just a few.however, in my view, the Blacktail populations are exploding, with logging on private timberland and state land... And yes you will get people killing a few big 3x or 4x bucks.. but the true monsters are still not getting wiped out...
You will have a hard time convincing me of this. I hunt from the coast to the Pacific Crest and have many friends that hunt the same areas.
I know a guy who has harvested 9 P&Y blacktail in the last 11 years. He talks about the numbers declining just in the last 15 years.
From my own experience I saw 30 -35 deer a day in 1995. Now I am lucky to go out and see 5 deer in a day.
:yeah:
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 04:23:54 PM
maybe if ya got out of the truck, you would see that the herd is just fine....jus sayin' lol
I hope the LOL means that was a joke :tup:
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on November 18, 2012, 04:29:31 PM
Post by: Salmo on November 18, 2012, 04:32:58 PM
Bad idea Really bad idea. :twocents:
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 04:40:10 PM
I spend a ton of time in the Willipa Hills from July to December. I have a pretty good idea how the deer are doing.
I also hate the idea of taking away time in the field. But with the advancement of weapons, optics, predator pressure, etc... the deer herd may not be able to sustain the seasons they once did.
I would also like to make a point that this wouldn't benefit me in any way. As a matter of fact it would be tougher for me to get my wife or kids deer but in the long run I feel something needs to be done.
Post by: dc on November 18, 2012, 04:54:28 PM
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 04:58:53 PM
Do I have the right answers? I don't know :dunno: I'm just relaying what I am seeing with my own visual observations. I feel that it is my job as a conservationist to say that I think there is an un-balance in the system somewhere.
Post by: Turkeyman on November 18, 2012, 05:17:43 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on November 18, 2012, 05:21:19 PM
Post by: jason4429 on November 18, 2012, 05:26:34 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 18, 2012, 05:27:26 PM
Post by: ScottyG on November 18, 2012, 05:31:23 PM
Sounds like the area he hunts has really got a problem.
Post by: jason4429 on November 18, 2012, 05:34:26 PM
Post by: trophyelk6x6 on November 18, 2012, 05:35:29 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on November 18, 2012, 05:40:51 PM
Terrible idea, what two big things happened in the mid 90s that might be effecting our game numbers?
I know, I know! Spotted owl protections put in place and the meteoric rise of the enviro/hugatree/nimby/clinton era. The death of sane resource management/logging.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 05:52:02 PM
I believe it would have to be a unit to unit management system. Some areas allow for better escapement and that in itself helps the deer population.
Around here the modern hunter is just to effective and there isn't any ground that isn't accessible.
Post by: logger on November 18, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
If the forest service would manage our ground and atleast log a little bit and i'm not talkin thinnings, the deer and elk would make a helluva comeback in those regions, they do not want to cut anything over 55 yrs old, that doesn't leave much avaliable timber, I think it would redistribute hunters back to f.s. ground who have left do to declining population.Terrible idea, what two big things happened in the mid 90s that might be effecting our game numbers?
I know, I know! Spotted owl protections put in place and the meteoric rise of the enviro/hugatree/nimby/clinton era. The death of sane resource management/logging.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 05:59:11 PM
"I know a guy who has harvested 9 P&Y blacktail in the last 11 years. He talks about the numbers declining just in the last 15 years."
Sounds like the area he hunts has really got a problem.
He is the best blacktail deer hunter I know. He takes the entire late archery season off and hunts where big deer live. It is getting harder and harder for him to find these class of bucks.
Post by: PLUVIUSWAPITI on November 18, 2012, 06:03:17 PM
Post by: Jingles on November 18, 2012, 06:13:50 PM
Post by: Whitpirate on November 18, 2012, 06:14:02 PM
Post by: FLIZZ on November 18, 2012, 06:15:52 PM
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 06:19:17 PM
Will someone give me a legitimate reason why hunters have to pick one method of hunting? Why not let the hunter buy a deer license and hunt with what ever he wants? Works in other states why can't it work in WA?
That would be interesting the length and time of year the season(s) would land.
Post by: coachcw on November 18, 2012, 06:21:54 PM
Jason, I hunted three days this late season and yes something needs to be done. Today I left Raymond , went to Smith crk to Fall river and then out Wilson crk. Then headed to Mill crk over towards Doty and back out Mill crk and did not see one deer all day long. I have talked to folks at the Montesano WDFW about two point or better and they said it won't work. They said that they don't want the spikes trying to breed the does.
Post by: trophyhunt on November 18, 2012, 06:43:51 PM
Post by: sirmissalot on November 18, 2012, 06:53:42 PM
Post by: gotcha on November 18, 2012, 06:58:36 PM
Post by: mtman on November 18, 2012, 06:59:34 PM
Post by: mtman on November 18, 2012, 07:07:22 PM
Post by: Huntbear on November 18, 2012, 07:11:11 PM
Will someone give me a legitimate reason why hunters have to pick one method of hunting? Why not let the hunter buy a deer license and hunt with what ever he wants? Works in other states why can't it work in WA?
That would be interesting the length and time of year the season(s) would land.
This used to be the case.. The WDFW in their infinite (choke, cough, cough, choke) wisdom, decided the animals had to much pressure put on them, so they made it this way... about the same time they forced you to pick east or west. Been keeping the hunting community divided pretty much ever since pitting each user group against the other for their entertainment... :bash: :bash:
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 07:12:37 PM
I think that it is one of the few ways left that modern guys can still get a chance at a mature blacktail.
The last week of regular season is also a very good time :tup:
Back to archery having first crack. There is no denying that. I will go back to my unit by unit management though. It is very difficult even for the best archery hunters around to kill a buck on these industrial timberlands early or late. :twocents:
I don't know why this always turns into a user group vs user group debate. I had a rifle tag this year and still feel this way.
Post by: gotcha on November 18, 2012, 07:16:53 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on November 18, 2012, 07:23:26 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on November 18, 2012, 07:26:14 PM
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 07:26:48 PM
No way in hell would I want them to eliminate the late buck rifle season even though I have been hunting archery and ml. The rut is winding down and most does are bred. BT herds in general are stable and the recent logging will only make hunting better. Sounds like another brilliant elitist idea from the archery crowd.
What are you talking about? I have always had a rifle deer tag.
You are entitled to your own opinion without resorting to name calling. Bye the way, how many days have you spent in the Willipa Hills?
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 07:30:10 PM
There is no denying that the majority of bucks in the north end of the Ryderwood and Willapa hills units are killed during these last 4 days.
Post by: mtman on November 18, 2012, 07:37:45 PM
Post by: grousetracker on November 18, 2012, 07:38:57 PM
Post by: jason4429 on November 18, 2012, 07:42:48 PM
Post by: rackattack on November 18, 2012, 07:46:28 PM
The ONLY reason I posted this is that I would like to see something done to help grow the blacktail population that seems to be diminishing in the area.
There is no denying that the majority of bucks in the north end of the Ryderwood and Willapa hills units are killed during these last 4 days.
Convince the timber companies to stop spraying every damn clearcut and you will see your populations return. :twocents:
Post by: gotcha on November 18, 2012, 07:49:04 PM
Post by: logger on November 18, 2012, 07:50:48 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 18, 2012, 07:51:49 PM
The ONLY reason I posted this is that I would like to see something done to help grow the blacktail population that seems to be diminishing in the area.
There is no denying that the majority of bucks in the north end of the Ryderwood and Willapa hills units are killed during these last 4 days.
Convince the timber companies to stop spraying every damn clearcut and you will see your populations return. :twocents:
Need to convince the greenies to let the timber co's burn again so they won't have to spray.
Post by: Griiz on November 18, 2012, 07:54:45 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on November 18, 2012, 07:56:20 PM
Post by: logger on November 18, 2012, 07:59:32 PM
What are they spraying for? In hancock the clear cuts are a damn mess (new ones) you can't even walk through them, it sucks when they don't clean up the cut. I also noticed they are doing a decent job at killing the scotch broom. But in hancock I don't see any reason or evidence of spraying the clear cut.you will pretty soon hancock sprays the rat piss out of it about may-june, the purist won't let burning go on anymore so they spray that much more, we used to pile an burn whole units-not anymore.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 08:02:12 PM
WHAT IS?
Post by: trophyhunt on November 18, 2012, 08:04:16 PM
The spraying makes more sense to me than too many bucks being killed during late season when it comes to deer numbers being down.What are they spraying for? In hancock the clear cuts are a damn mess (new ones) you can't even walk through them, it sucks when they don't clean up the cut. I also noticed they are doing a decent job at killing the scotch broom. But in hancock I don't see any reason or evidence of spraying the clear cut.you will pretty soon hancock sprays the rat piss out of it about may-june, the purist won't let burning go on anymore so they spray that much more, we used to pile an burn whole units-not anymore.
Post by: julzzz on November 18, 2012, 08:07:19 PM
Post by: billythekidrock on November 18, 2012, 08:08:59 PM
No way in hell would I want them to eliminate the late buck rifle season even though I have been hunting archery and ml. The rut is winding down and most does are bred. BT herds in general are stable and the recent logging will only make hunting better. Sounds like another brilliant elitist idea from the archery crowd.
What are you talking about? I have always had a rifle deer tag.
You are entitled to your own opinion without resorting to name calling. Bye the way, how many days have you spent in the Willipa Hills?
No name calling, just sarcasm.
I am tired of hearing the "poor me”, "my area is wiped out", "I have a better idea" type threads. This just feeds into those that want to divide us further.
It is usually the archery hunters who want to change modern deer seasons and the modern elk guys wanting to change the archery rut hunts and the poor muzzy guys get shafted all the way around.
Eliminating any days of any weapon choice is not an acceptable answer. Once it is gone we will never get them back.
I have hunted blacktails for over 30 years and the last couple years I have been hard pressed to find a forky during general or late season. Am I worried about the bt population? No. Just because I don’t see the big bucks doesn’t mean they are not there.
Just today I saw 14 does and not a single live buck in a unit that I have never hunted before. Does that mean there is a lack of bucks? No. All the adult does had a yearling or fawn with them. They are being bred. I did see two nice three points that were killed so I know some good bucks are in the area.
Again, just because they aren’t seen doesn’t mean they aren’t there.
How much time the Willapa Hills? Absolutely zero in the last year.
Post by: billythekidrock on November 18, 2012, 08:10:53 PM
O.K. I agree with providing as much opportunity as possible. I understand permits are not for everyone. So, If getting rid of the late season isn't an acceptable solution.
WHAT IS?
Better predator management and reducing doe harvests.
Post by: jason4429 on November 18, 2012, 08:12:57 PM
O.K. I agree with providing as much opportunity as possible. I understand permits are not for everyone. So, If getting rid of the late season isn't an acceptable solution.kill some cougars
WHAT IS?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 18, 2012, 08:13:50 PM
The greenies have been after spraying recently. I know that the Port Townsend hippies were working on a county wide prohibition of spraying for roadsides, and then are planning on all county wide spraying.What are they spraying for? In hancock the clear cuts are a damn mess (new ones) you can't even walk through them, it sucks when they don't clean up the cut. I also noticed they are doing a decent job at killing the scotch broom. But in hancock I don't see any reason or evidence of spraying the clear cut.you will pretty soon hancock sprays the rat piss out of it about may-june, the purist won't let burning go on anymore so they spray that much more, we used to pile an burn whole units-not anymore.
Post by: jason4429 on November 18, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
Post by: bearbaito6 on November 18, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Post by: julzzz on November 18, 2012, 08:16:59 PM
Post by: Pazn25 on November 18, 2012, 08:19:05 PM
"mature bucks" :chuckle:
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 08:25:27 PM
That is a valuable response. I saw 4 branch bucks in the last 4 days. None over the 12" mark. There were also some very good bucks killed around here this weekend (16"+ 3 or 4 points).
I agree we need to manage the predators better but until we are given the tools to do so I don't know how we can continue the way we always have. There was a change to the predator population but there wasn't a change to season lengths or number of hunters. It seems like things are inevitably going to decline.
I feel the seasons are pretty balanced for all user groups as they are (elk and deer). Of course I can only speak for the units local to me.
Post by: brokehunter on November 18, 2012, 08:27:51 PM
And as for eliminating late buck? I feel just the opposite. I don't think they give us enough time. Only 4 days? Really? How about opening it till the end of the month! :tup: I can't take the time off that most guys get to hunt, so late buck is always better. But 4 days isn't enough. Kind of sad if you ask me.
Post by: mfswallace on November 18, 2012, 08:28:47 PM
I don't know what the best solution would be. I would just like to see the deer hunting improved (older aged class bucks).-------"jphelps"
R we talking about trophy hunting or sustenance hunting??
Post by: Rainstorm Hunter on November 18, 2012, 08:30:34 PM
Post by: Pazn25 on November 18, 2012, 08:30:49 PM
In this area (Willipa Hills) I would venture to guess that 80% of the bucks killed are killed in these 4 days.
95% of the mature bucks (3-1/2 years or older) are killed on these four days.
The bucks are very vulnerable and will not leave the open cuts if a hot doe has been there. I passed on two 2-points only for them to be shot by hunters behind.
Many die hard blacktail hunters around here also agree that the season needs to be removed.
If you dont agree with this late buck hunt then why are you out there adding to the amount of hunters hunting it?
Post by: csaaphill on November 18, 2012, 08:39:24 PM
Someones getting yelled at besides me lol.
I don't know either I know even in the eastern side there had been some decline in Deer, but they have always rebounded.
This year I seen tons of Mule deer and haven't seen them in these numbers in years.
Now don't get all freaky, but maybe a 3pt minimum rule for a while might help. :twocents:
There is the WDFW web site and there is a contact page Phelps might try that or us all?
I might as well write an email to the wdfw head or one of our regions offices. I think just for a year or two a spike and 2pt only season might be in need. I seen tons of 2pts this year, and begining to feel they need the fear of man in them again so they won't stand there and tempt anyone. Meaning when they get to a 3pt they aren't as afraid of man so can be easy pickins. So changing the seasons around a bit might stir things up a bit. No I don't think closing a season would be the answer and allowing hound hunting again might help as well. I would be for changing the hunt methods and make it all just chose your weapon.
Anyways just some thoughts.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 08:40:58 PM
I took four days off to take my wife hunting. This is her first year and my goal was to get her a shot. We were targeting some specific bucks we saw during the summer.
Post by: AKBowman on November 18, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
I agree it is a balancing act of offering "opportunity vs maintaining the opportunity".
Do I have the right answers? I don't know :dunno: I'm just relaying what I am seeing with my own visual observations. I feel that it is my job as a conservationist to say that I think there is an un-balance in the system somewhere.
Totally agree there is a large in balance in the system...it's called way too many predators over there. There's way way more cats than there used to be and infitely more bears, the yotes don't help either. I don't think the hunters killing bucks regardless of size or age of buck has nearly as much effect on the deer pops as was once thought. I find tons of cougar kills digging around in the reprod where four years ago they were few and far between. Hunters killing doe's is a problem and that should stop.
Having two modern seasons in the rut is ridiculous IMO. Early ends in per rut/ rut and late modern is during the rut / post rut. The late modern hunt should be middle of December post rut...have fun trying to find bucks then its not easy. I would like to see the seasons changed towards:
Early archery Sept 1-28
Early modern Oct 15-31
Late Archery November 15-Dec 15
Late modern Dec 25-31
Muzzy mixed in there somewhere
Post by: jason4429 on November 18, 2012, 08:50:36 PM
Post by: Sneekee23 on November 18, 2012, 09:22:00 PM
Post by: kentrek on November 18, 2012, 09:22:30 PM
Early archery Sept 1-28
Early modern Oct 15-31
Late Archery November 15-Dec 15
Late modern Dec 25-31
Muzzy mixed in there somewhere
this wont work with my idaho whitetail hunt... :chuckle: jk
i really like this season set up :twocents:
Post by: billjr64 on November 18, 2012, 09:23:32 PM
Post by: Griiz on November 18, 2012, 09:30:55 PM
I was thinking the same thing Jason, but only make it 3 point or better. Bring back logging on National Forest Land and bring back hound hunting = deer and elk for everyone. I know wishfull thinking...
It would be a bad idea to have 3pt. min. for blacktails. Too many only have genes for 2pt. and they would grow big and spread their genes and we would have even more large 2pts.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 09:32:40 PM
How about a two point min. How about all these other options,besides less hunting opportunities? I can't believe someone that spends so much time in the woods would want take that away from another hunter.
It is more complicated than that. I don't WANT to take time away, but on the same hand WE (all hunters) can't continue to allow the deer numbers to decline.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 09:36:58 PM
:IBCOOL: :chuckle:
Someones getting yelled at besides me lol.
It's alright I have broad shoulders. I don't get offended easy and if the end result from this thread is a better idea for management I will take as much heat as necessary. After all we are all on the same team.
Who am I kidding WDFW won't listen unless the almighty $ is included and more importantly increased.
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on November 18, 2012, 09:39:52 PM
How does the game department manage populations? They increase antlerless harvest. Just look at the st helens elk herd.
Post by: JPhelps on November 18, 2012, 09:41:54 PM
If you want population numbers to increase stop killing does.
I don't :chuckle:
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on November 18, 2012, 09:50:28 PM
Post by: fish vacuum on November 19, 2012, 12:44:15 AM
Like fishing, hunting pressure is getting more concentrated as more areas get closed. Gates can be a benefit for people willing and able hunt behind them, but they push a lot of pressure to other places still open to vehicles.
I think the spraying of clearcuts is a good point too.
My feeling is that hunters will have to choose east or west for their deer tags before long. That would take out a large chunk of guys chasing blacktails after they get skunked during the muley season.
Post by: elkh8me on November 19, 2012, 05:38:19 AM
Post by: bigcountry on November 19, 2012, 07:29:01 AM
I think the predators have taken more of a toll on numbers than hunters by far! Id like to see what happens if baiting and hound hunting were brought back. I just dont see hunters killing the young bucks as a longterm detriment to the populations or number of big bucks. Many other states purposely do not have a minimum point rule and in turn have a better population of mature bucks, do some research, Wyoming would be an example.
And I have seen numerous trophy blacktail bucks in the summertime and come season, even late buck, I spend days hunting the same area and those same bucks are rarely ever seen.
I wouldnt worry about low BT deer populations for the future generations to hunt, I'd worry about the anti-hunting crowd and the fact that we will not be able to head into the woods to hunt :twocents:
Post by: JPhelps on November 19, 2012, 07:49:26 AM
I've hunted Montana, Wyoming and Colorado for deer and I don't know if the argument is valid. The deer populations are higher and the hunters seem to manage themselves by passing on the young bucks.
We all agree that the predators are having an effect. Yet the season dates and lengths haven't changed. I don't know how the equation could stay balanced without reintroducing bait/hounds or reducing harvest? I am definitely on the side of predator management, but if we don't have the tools necessary to effectively control them don't we have the responsibility.... To try and make things better (or at least maintain)?
Post by: deaner on November 19, 2012, 08:10:54 AM
Post by: rose673 on November 19, 2012, 08:25:01 AM
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on November 19, 2012, 09:29:26 AM
Post by: Wildsau on November 19, 2012, 09:42:49 AM
What needs to be changed, is NOT the seasons, but the "Buck Law". The laws should be changed to read "one deer per tag", and a hunter can only purchase, like bear, a total of two tags. The seasons are not the problem, it is that damn "Buck Law".
I do agree there should be baiting allowed for bear and hounds for cats and coyotes to better manage the preditor population, thus helping the BT population. Reduce the number of preditors and increase the number of BT/Elk.
Reducing the seasons will only force MORE hunters to go to other states and spend their money there, rather than at home. Most hunters, I know, are looking to put meat in the freezer. If a large buck, or a buck with badly deformed horns, crosses their path, chances are he will take a "Dirt Nap". By the same token, if any deer crosses most hunters' path, it is "Dirt Nap"time. It is far more challenging to drop a doe than a buck, becasue she is ALWAYS on alert. And last time I checked, horns make terrible soup. :twocents:
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on November 19, 2012, 09:50:46 AM
Post by: Buckmania on November 19, 2012, 09:59:19 AM
I've hunted Montana, Wyoming and Colorado for deer and I don't know if the argument is valid. The deer populations are higher and the hunters seem to manage themselves by passing on the young bucks.
Are you serious????? Populations higher????? You don't think that it's because of the terrain and the populations are just fine, the only difference is that you're able to see more of them?????
Post by: jackmaster on November 19, 2012, 10:25:40 AM
Post by: deaner on November 19, 2012, 11:07:01 AM
It is far more challenging to drop a doe than a buck, becasue she is ALWAYS on alert.
serious? come on. harder to get a doe? what planet are you from?
Post by: PlateauNDN on November 19, 2012, 11:20:50 AM
It is far more challenging to drop a doe than a buck, becasue she is ALWAYS on alert.
serious? come on. harder to get a doe? what planet are you from?
:o :yeah: I've seen more doe than bucks anytime I'm out in the woods. just this past weekend i was out walking the woods and came across at least 20 does and 1 spike buck. 1 group of does didn't even bother to stop eating when they seen me and I came to within 25 yards of them just casually walking up to them. good thing for them I was only sightseeing.
Post by: BK Dave on November 19, 2012, 11:33:21 AM
Please remove the Western Washington late blacktail hunt from the modern firearm general season tag holders. Make it permit only, get rid of it completely, or only allow youth to hunt. Thank You
Sincerely,
Jason Phelps
Perhaps your request to the GAME department could read something a little more specific like "dear Department of fish&wildlife could the Willipa Hills GMU be managed differently than other units in Western Wa. because ect ect ect....
Post by: PolarBear on November 19, 2012, 11:36:24 AM
Post by: JPhelps on November 19, 2012, 12:18:32 PM
Please remove the Western Washington late blacktail hunt from the modern firearm general season tag holders. Make it permit only, get rid of it completely, or only allow youth to hunt. Thank You
Sincerely,
Jason Phelps
Perhaps your request to the GAME department could read something a little more specific like "dear Department of fish&wildlife could the Willipa Hills GMU be managed differently than other units in Western Wa. because ect ect ect....
That works!!! Thats the ultimate goal. Now just to define the "ect,ect,ect..."
Post by: bullcanyon on November 19, 2012, 12:22:56 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on November 19, 2012, 12:28:41 PM
Post by: WSU on November 19, 2012, 01:12:50 PM
Post by: b0bbyg on November 19, 2012, 01:22:50 PM
There have been news articles about some of the groups that poached in the area. Even with this I have seen some decent bucks in the area but had to work hard to find them.
Post by: Salmo on November 19, 2012, 01:41:47 PM
Dear WDFW,
Please save hunting in this state as it is a multi-million dollar industry which employ's thousands. We have a predator problem that is taking a serious toll on our valuable resource. Please pull your head out your *censored* and do whats right for everyone. Not what pleases *censored* and the like who contribute in no way towards wildlife and conservation. Yet from their couch they are allowed to vote on issues that do not pertain to any part of their lives.
There fixed it for ya!
Post by: fish vacuum on November 19, 2012, 01:47:24 PM
I'm curious how much of the alleged decline (we don't have anything to prove there is a decline, just some anecdotal evidence) is due to a change in logging practices? Now, all clear cuts are sprayed to nuke everything and then evergreens are planted. The result is, by design, a lot less brush and trees other than than whatever evergreen variety grows the best at that location. Perhaps the changes in the forest have a lot more to do with deer numbers than a few extra bucks being killed. :twocents:
:yeah:
Closing areas just pushes more people into the places that are left open. And if they do close the late buck season, it'll be for more than one or two GMUs. No sense in having a patchwork of units with different rules. If you want late buck closed in one GMU in SW Washington, it'll be the whole SW corner that gets closed.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on November 19, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
Year Antlerless Antlered Total (All methods) Number of M/F hunters Percent of M/F hunter sucess
2007 0 193 193 1498 12.9%
2008 0 213 227 N/A N/A
2009 0 194 204 1334 14.5%
2010 0 245 261 1185 20.7%
2011 0 175 182 953 18.4%
So from this it seems there has been a cycle of some sort with harvest numbers raising/falling every other year, with a high of 245 bucks to a low of 175, with five year averages of:
204 bucks killed/213 total deer killed over the 5 years on average.
(Since only 4 years data) number of hunters and percent of sucess, an average of 1243 hunters enjoyed 16.6% success.
One thing that is constant is the declinng numbers of hunters in that area each year.
So based on that availible data, it doesn't seem viable that removing an average of 200 or so bucks from that area could have that substantial of an impact on the overall herd, regardless of what time of season they are taken in to me.
GMU 506 seems to be a fairly large unit acerage wise, so I would like to know the number of bucks/deer taken averaged out per acre if anyone knows where to find out the how big the unit is.
In short, I don't see giving up any part of our season(s) being the answer, at least based on the data I can find at this point. I believe the other issues mentioned such as poaching, predators and habitat being the main influences.
Post by: Prime Time on November 19, 2012, 02:17:34 PM
Increase in hunters & less habitat = less deer. Anyone considered the expkosiin of hunters in the last 20 years?
Along with the amount of quads and small vehicles driving into walk-in areas. :twocents: Saw plenty of that this year.
Post by: trophyhunt on November 19, 2012, 02:25:59 PM
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on November 19, 2012, 04:28:08 PM
Post by: Salmo on November 19, 2012, 05:23:53 PM
Personally I'd like to see hunters/sportsmen sue the WDFW for misrepresentation and illegal use of our money.
Post by: JPhelps on November 19, 2012, 05:31:05 PM
I'm sure its been said before but I can't express enough how the original poster screwed this thread up to begin with.
Dear WDFW,
Please save hunting in this state as it is a multi-million dollar industry which employ's thousands. We have a predator problem that is taking a serious toll on our valuable resource. Please pull your head out your ass and do whats right for everyone. Not what pleases *censored*'s and the like who contribute in no way towards wildlife and conservation. Yet from their couch they are allowed to vote on issues that do not pertain to any part of their lives.
There fixed it for ya!
I have already said that my original idea may not be the best way to go about increasing the deer herd.
But what I do know is that A LOT of bucks were killed in the 4 days of late buck. That is not necessarily a bad thing (after all that's what we are all out there for).
Post by: deaner on November 19, 2012, 05:32:06 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on November 19, 2012, 05:51:46 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on November 19, 2012, 05:55:25 PM
Post by: Salmo on November 19, 2012, 07:05:28 PM
yes bringing back baiting and hound hunting will increase predator hunting opportunities and increase ungulate hunting opportunities... win win
Prezactly a fight sportsman should stand together for! It would be moronic to just hand over what the anti's already want to take away. Ask for a 2pt restriction? sure. Ask for permits? Hell the **** no! They already misuse enough of our money. I've hunted willipa hills for the last 15yrs. Most big bucks have evolved into very nocturnal critters. More so than ever. I love WPH. I'm not willing to give the anti's and the state a damn thing. Work on real issues with the state such as 2pt restriction, spring bear hunts and hound and trapping opportunitys!!! Bring it on!!!! Give up what they already wanta take. Bite me.
Post by: JPhelps on November 19, 2012, 07:13:25 PM
Post by: Huckleberry on November 19, 2012, 07:27:40 PM
If you passed up on two legal bucks only to see them later get shot then there are a few factors involved:
1) Congrats.....more than a lot of people I know ran into
2) If you were in a spot where that happens then I'm not suprised you didn't see big deer.
3) How many dry does do you really see. I'm in the woods a bit. Not many.
4) As long as the does are bred it shouldn't matter by who.
5) I struggle with the lack of blactail food out there. Really that's there limiting factor lol.
Wdfw management in these units is for hunting as a recreation. People actually get deer wtf??? It's ok to have a young age class.....population #'s is something different. If you want big deer just look for them a little harder. The nice ones are nice for a reason and didn't get shot standing in a clear cut looking at a hot doe.
Post by: Salmo on November 19, 2012, 07:47:57 PM
Post by: Salmo on November 19, 2012, 07:48:35 PM
Post by: singleshot12 on November 19, 2012, 08:25:36 PM
Post by: TikkaT3-270Shortmag on November 19, 2012, 08:38:38 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on November 19, 2012, 08:55:33 PM
Post by: AKBowman on November 19, 2012, 09:06:29 PM
I would much rather see a ban on baiting blacktail than to see the 4 day modern hunt end. I think more mature breeder bucks are killed during the late archery when post rut bucks are the most vulnerable searching for food to strengthen back their body for the winter. I know in my area most everyone baits during early archery,modern,muzzle and late too.Most of the big bucks have been killed over a bait pile the last few years which has had a noticeable negative impact on my local deer herd :twocents:.
WRONG!!!! Post rut BT's hole up in the nastiest thick and go completely nocturnal. They are surrounded by feed why would they have to go "searching" for food? Yeah they'll come to a pile of apples...after dark
Post by: Harborhunter on November 19, 2012, 09:12:09 PM
Are there many brush pickers near skookumchuk? During deer season a guy said he quit hunting certain parts of the OP because the biologists told him they were attributing the decline of deer in those areas to poaching by brushpickers. Said when FS or Border Patrol stop their vehicles they have been finding deer hidden under the brush. Said the deer were snared then clubbed.
I don't know about the Skookumchuck, but i would be willing to bet there are a few deer coming out in the back of brush pickers vans here in Grays Harbor/Pacific County.
Post by: brokehunter on November 19, 2012, 11:17:10 PM
Year Antlerless Antlered Total (All methods) Number of M/F hunters Percent of M/F hunter sucess
2007 0 193 193 1498 12.9%
2008 0 213 227 N/A N/A
2009 0 194 204 1334 14.5%
2010 0 245 261 1185 20.7%
2011 0 175 182 953 18.4%
One thing that is constant is the declinng numbers of hunters in that area each year.
In short, I don't see giving up any part of our season(s) being the answer, at least based on the data I can find at this point. I believe the other issues mentioned such as poaching, predators and habitat being the main influences.
:yeah:
It's interesting your data coincides with a report I read in the Columbian a couple years back. They were saying the number of deer hunters in WA has declined steadily each year since 2000. What I am willing to bet is that as the number of licensed deer hunters has went down, the percentage of poaching has climbed at the same rate. Especially with the bad economy, rising cost of fuel, tags, and people wanting meat on the table, etc. I would source that as a very real problem, just as bad if not worse than the poor predator management this state has. As I mentioned in a previous post, the evidence of poaching in the areas I hunt is astounding. And that's just during modern hunting season! :yike: One can only imagine how many animals fall victim to it each year.
Curiously, in the light of the data of declining deer hunters, I am thinking the numbers of elk hunters has increased. Just a guess and a bit off topic I know. But it sure seems like it anyway! :chuckle:
Post by: erk444 on November 20, 2012, 02:51:41 PM
It looks like those #s are only for modern. I wonder if the # of bowhunters or muzzy hunters went up as those went down :dunno:
Year Antlerless Antlered Total (All methods) Number of M/F hunters Percent of M/F hunter sucess
2007 0 193 193 1498 12.9%
2008 0 213 227 N/A N/A
2009 0 194 204 1334 14.5%
2010 0 245 261 1185 20.7%
2011 0 175 182 953 18.4%
One thing that is constant is the declinng numbers of hunters in that area each year.
In short, I don't see giving up any part of our season(s) being the answer, at least based on the data I can find at this point. I believe the other issues mentioned such as poaching, predators and habitat being the main influences.
:yeah:
It's interesting your data coincides with a report I read in the Columbian a couple years back. They were saying the number of deer hunters in WA has declined steadily each year since 2000. What I am willing to bet is that as the number of licensed deer hunters has went down, the percentage of poaching has climbed at the same rate. Especially with the bad economy, rising cost of fuel, tags, and people wanting meat on the table, etc. I would source that as a very real problem, just as bad if not worse than the poor predator management this state has. As I mentioned in a previous post, the evidence of poaching in the areas I hunt is astounding. And that's just during modern hunting season! :yike: One can only imagine how many animals fall victim to it each year.
Curiously, in the light of the data of declining deer hunters, I am thinking the numbers of elk hunters has increased. Just a guess and a bit off topic I know. But it sure seems like it anyway! :chuckle:
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on November 20, 2012, 04:51:55 PM
Year Archery Muzzleloader Multi-weapon
2011 164 14 19
2010 214 14 18
2009 224 6 17