Post by: Dip-Zag on December 04, 2012, 10:17:16 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 04, 2012, 10:44:39 PM
I think it's the latter....... Which is fine. I have no issue with them having "open" enrollment periods and "closed" times.
Post by: Dip-Zag on December 04, 2012, 10:49:16 PM
OLYMPIA – With current enrollment nearing 2,000 hunters, the Master Hunter Permit Program administered by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) has stopped accepting new applications for membership until further notice.
The enrollment freeze is designed to give the department time to absorb an increase of nearly 30 percent more certified master hunters over the past four years and clearly define the program’s role, said Sgt. Carl Klein, WDFW program manager.
“Since 1992, the program has produced a highly skilled pool of volunteers that assist the department in controlling wildlife damage,” Klein said. “Now we need to make sure we can utilize the skills of all master hunters.”
Klein said WDFW often calls on master hunters to participate in hunts designed to remove problem animals that damage property or threaten public safety. To maintain their certification, master hunters are required to participate in volunteer projects, ranging from maintaining elk fences to restoring wildlife habitat.
Mike Britton, chair of WDFW’s Master Hunter Advisory Group, said he supports the department’s review of the program.
“There is an urgent need for WDFW to identify priority volunteer needs and to actively engage master hunters in meaningful work,” he said.
Post by: Dan-o on December 04, 2012, 10:52:37 PM
Don't worry, I'm sure they'll still let you fix elk fence and do other service projects. ;)
Post by: CP on December 05, 2012, 07:07:18 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2012, 07:10:08 AM
Post by: Bob33 on December 05, 2012, 07:18:17 AM
Post by: Dip-Zag on December 05, 2012, 05:22:57 PM
Post by: Humptulips on December 05, 2012, 06:36:31 PM
It sounds more like it's about a pool of free labor for WDFW and they are trying to figure out where to put them top work.
Wasn't originally like that. When I went through it you could find your own project. I did that with a clean up project on USFS land.
If there are going to be special hunts for MH it's only fair to allow anyone in that can qualify.
I hope this is just a short pullback and not a longstanding freeze.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 06, 2012, 06:06:48 AM
If it's truly about integrity, good marksmanship and giving back to the sport and wildlife why would they freeze it?
It sounds more like it's about a pool of free labor for WDFW and they are trying to figure out where to put them top work.
Wasn't originally like that. When I went through it you could find your own project. I did that with a clean up project on USFS land.
If there are going to be special hunts for MH it's only fair to allow anyone in that can qualify.
I hope this is just a short pullback and not a longstanding freeze.
You can still find your own projects. You just need to get them pre-approved. The program is very much about integrity and ethics. As far as limiting the number of those enrolled, I can only assume that the more people in the program, the more it takes to manage. As far as free labor for the DFW is concerned, the labor is used for conservation, so it's more for the wildlife than the department. Especially where there are increasing budget constraints at every level of government, to be able to expend volunteer labor on conservation means that paid DFW labor can be expended elsewhere.
Post by: billythekidrock on December 06, 2012, 06:28:51 AM
If it's truly about integrity, good marksmanship and giving back to the sport and wildlife why would they freeze it?
It sounds more like it's about a pool of free labor for WDFW and they are trying to figure out where to put them top work.
Wasn't originally like that. When I went through it you could find your own project. I did that with a clean up project on USFS land.
If there are going to be special hunts for MH it's only fair to allow anyone in that can qualify.
I hope this is just a short pullback and not a longstanding freeze.
You can still find your own projects. You just need to get them pre-approved. The program is very much about integrity and ethics. As far as limiting the number of those enrolled, I can only assume that the more people in the program, the more it takes to manage. As far as free labor for the DFW is concerned, the labor is used for conservation, so it's more for the wildlife than the department. Especially where there are increasing budget constraints at every level of government, to be able to expend volunteer labor on conservation means that paid DFW labor can be expended elsewhere.
I agree that if special permits are given then they need to continue to allow people to join.
I was told MHs could find their own projects but they could not be for private land owners and they had to be WDFW or RMEF. The hours and maintenance we provided to a landowner allowed hunters access to hunt his land and to pass through to some land that thin on public access. They would not approve my hours only months before the deadline and they told me to find something new. I declined since the program is joke. Screw 'em.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 06, 2012, 06:48:38 AM
If it's truly about integrity, good marksmanship and giving back to the sport and wildlife why would they freeze it?
It sounds more like it's about a pool of free labor for WDFW and they are trying to figure out where to put them top work.
Wasn't originally like that. When I went through it you could find your own project. I did that with a clean up project on USFS land.
If there are going to be special hunts for MH it's only fair to allow anyone in that can qualify.
I hope this is just a short pullback and not a longstanding freeze.
You can still find your own projects. You just need to get them pre-approved. The program is very much about integrity and ethics. As far as limiting the number of those enrolled, I can only assume that the more people in the program, the more it takes to manage. As far as free labor for the DFW is concerned, the labor is used for conservation, so it's more for the wildlife than the department. Especially where there are increasing budget constraints at every level of government, to be able to expend volunteer labor on conservation means that paid DFW labor can be expended elsewhere.
I agree that if special permits are given then they need to continue to allow people to join.
I was told MHs could find their own projects but they could not be for private land owners and they had to be WDFW or RMEF. The hours and maintenance we provided to a landowner allowed hunters access to hunt his land and to pass through to some land that thin on public access. They would not approve my hours only months before the deadline and they told me to find something new. I declined since the program is joke. Screw 'em.
I find it to be quite rewarding. I'm sorry your experience was different. I've been participating for three years now and have done a crap load of projects. I'm not sure about the private land thing, but the projects are certainly not limited to DFW or RMEF. There are DU projects, Pheasant Forever, you can pick up trash on any public lands.
There's a lot of misinformation out there that has to do with ignorance of the program (I'm not calling you ignorant), and due to a past that was sometimes not stellar (see the Skagit Valley fiasco). My experience is overwhelmingly positive and I have yet to go on a MH hunt, although I'm on call for a Region 5 damage tag if they get to my name way down the list. I don't care if I get called or not. The stuff I learned about hunting during the qualification period was excellent. The way I now relate to non-hunters (I'm not talking about anti-hunters) is far different and vastly more productive. And, the program, sometimes much to the chagrin of the DFW, has awakened in me a passion for pursuing legislative and departmental cure for the ills which hunters face in our country today. I'm now very active politically with regards to sportsmen issues. I also stared mentoring due almost completely to my participation in the program.
Billythekid, once you have certified and are a part of the program, you get out of it exactly what you put in. If you're expecting something from the DFW just because you're now a MH, you're going to be greatly disappointed. The tags are only so much fluff. Those who will glean the most are in the program for the true benefits, personal achievement and education, benefits to the hunter, the hunted, our youth, and to the future of our sport through activism and volunterrism.
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 06, 2012, 02:06:23 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 06, 2012, 02:13:55 PM
I fixed a lot of elk fences I know that... And haven't gotten a call or drawn a tag for anything... Most the tags are antlerless... Some any elkAll the elk permits are antlerless.
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 06, 2012, 02:19:31 PM
I fixed a lot of elk fences I know that... And haven't gotten a call or drawn a tag for anything... Most the tags are antlerless... Some any elkAll the elk permits are antlerless.
I didn't apply for any this year... Thought there use to be some any elk ones?? Maybe a few years ago??? Don't know if I'm right but maybe around the Toledo area??
Post by: Bob33 on December 06, 2012, 02:22:31 PM
The "any elk" permits were eliminated two years ago. All permits are antlerless now.I fixed a lot of elk fences I know that... And haven't gotten a call or drawn a tag for anything... Most the tags are antlerless... Some any elkAll the elk permits are antlerless.
I didn't apply for any this year... Thought there use to be some any elk ones?? Maybe a few years ago??? Don't know if I'm right but maybe around the Toledo area??
Post by: Dip-Zag on December 06, 2012, 03:46:56 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 06, 2012, 03:51:13 PM
Piano man, it sounds to me that if they also suspended the special draw hunts for Master Hunters you would support this too, since this is not why you are a MH? I agree with Billy that if the suspend enrollment,then they should suspend the special draws for MHs. In fact, I think they should make the previous MH draws a general draws. This is an equitable approach, it meets game management objectives, and will increase revenue.
I have no problem with suspending any draws for MHs and have suggested it in the annual questionnaire we're given. I don't quite understand your reasoning about the enrollment reaching the max goal and suspending the draws, but I personally don't care about getting one. I do however feel that any hunter who draws one of the damage tags should go through some sort of course to make sure their sensitive to landowner concerns, public exposure, and an increased level of ethics, as many of those hunts are to do with private land wildlife damage OR very public exposure shooting. That's the reason you currently have to be a MH for those draws; to make sure you don't give hunters a black eye. Wildlife management objectives are not the only concern with these highly visible hunts.
Post by: C-Money on December 06, 2012, 03:53:55 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 07, 2012, 06:02:42 AM
I had trouble getting the required volunteer time in when I was trying to be a master hunter. F&W just did not have any work. Kinda sucked.
Some areas of the state have more ongoing projects than others. Here in SW, we have a few that are annual events. As I said above, though, you can create your own projects and you can also go to your local chapters of the various conservation organizations to ask them what needs to be done locally. Those projects can then be proposed to the MH administrator and approved for the hours. This isn't made very clear in the volunteer outline. I found out only by asking.
Post by: Bob33 on December 07, 2012, 06:16:22 AM
• Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
• Ducks Unlimited
• Mule Deer Foundation
• Pheasants Forever
• Safari Club
• Eyes In The Woods
• Washington DNR
• Washington State Parks and Recreation
• Private landowners
• Private timber companies
• WDFW:assist in fencing or elk hazing projects
• Private landowners with elk damage
• Hunter Education classes
• Mentoring of first-time hunters
Anyone that says they cannot find one of these organizations or activities that would accept 20 hours of free volunteer assistance over a period of several months strains my credibility. :dunno:
Post by: dreamunelk on December 07, 2012, 06:27:21 AM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/volunteer/projects/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/volunteer/projects/)
Post by: adamR on December 07, 2012, 06:34:13 AM
I had trouble getting the required volunteer time in when I was trying to be a master hunter. F&W just did not have any work. Kinda sucked.I had to venture out and find my own opportunities for volunteer work, the F&W office wasn't much help when it came to ideas. I ended up traveling almost 120 miles round trip to do my time on 3 separate occasions. The opportunities are out there you just have to look a little harder.
I've only been a mh for a year now and was drawn for a permit for it this year but have not been called and even if I was called I probably can't go because of my knee surgery. Personally it wouldn't bother me if they suspended the permits for now but what would they do then if they had alot of property damage next year from animals? They almost have to have those permits available.
Post by: CP on December 07, 2012, 07:08:46 AM
If you can’t find anything listed try calling the wildlife area managers directly and ask them if they need help. Their names and numbers are all on the dept’s web site.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 07, 2012, 07:21:21 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 07, 2012, 07:24:45 AM
I had trouble getting the required volunteer time in when I was trying to be a master hunter. F&W just did not have any work. Kinda sucked.
Are you around Moses, see if you can volunteer to pick up trash around the Desert unit?
Post by: Wildsau on December 07, 2012, 07:28:47 AM
Just my :twocents: worth.
Post by: Stizz on December 07, 2012, 04:32:41 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 07, 2012, 04:56:19 PM
Post by: Simcoe hunter on December 11, 2012, 07:46:10 PM
Post by: Dip-Zag on December 12, 2012, 06:46:15 PM
Post by: cem3434 on December 12, 2012, 06:54:23 PM
My reading of this announcement is that enrollment is suspended and not the entire program. If this is the case then the WDFW has created an special class of 2000 individuals entitled to draw hunts at the exclusion of the general public. I do not think this is equitable or appropriate. Either suspend the entire program or open enrollment to public.
:yeah:
I am guessing most guys that support the suspension of enrollment are guys who have already became MH's and dont want anymore competion for permits. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 13, 2012, 06:02:53 AM
My reading of this announcement is that enrollment is suspended and not the entire program. If this is the case then the WDFW has created an special class of 2000 individuals entitled to draw hunts at the exclusion of the general public. I do not think this is equitable or appropriate. Either suspend the entire program or open enrollment to public.
:yeah:
I am guessing most guys that support the suspension of enrollment are guys who have already became MH's and dont want anymore competion for permits. :twocents:
You would be wrong then.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 13, 2012, 06:07:38 AM
Post by: JLS on December 13, 2012, 06:08:43 AM
My reading of this announcement is that enrollment is suspended and not the entire program. If this is the case then the WDFW has created an special class of 2000 individuals entitled to draw hunts at the exclusion of the general public. I do not think this is equitable or appropriate. Either suspend the entire program or open enrollment to public.
Sooooo, we should go ahead and punish the folks who took the time and initiative to meet the program requirements because it just isn't fair? :rolleyes:
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on December 13, 2012, 06:09:15 AM
:yeah: we do not need anymore :chuckle: :chuckle: just my :twocents:My reading of this announcement is that enrollment is suspended and not the entire program. If this is the case then the WDFW has created an special class of 2000 individuals entitled to draw hunts at the exclusion of the general public. I do not think this is equitable or appropriate. Either suspend the entire program or open enrollment to public.
:yeah:
I am guessing most guys that support the suspension of enrollment are guys who have already became MH's and dont want anymore competion for permits. :twocents:
Post by: jaymark6655 on December 13, 2012, 06:39:52 AM
My reading of this announcement is that enrollment is suspended and not the entire program. If this is the case then the WDFW has created an special class of 2000 individuals entitled to draw hunts at the exclusion of the general public. I do not think this is equitable or appropriate. Either suspend the entire program or open enrollment to public.
:yeah:
I am guessing most guys that support the suspension of enrollment are guys who have already became MH's and dont want anymore competion for permits. :twocents:
That's like saying, "I am guessing most guys that don't support the suspension of the enrollment are guys who aren't MH's and when the enrollment opens back up, they still won't take any sort of initiative and become one." :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on December 13, 2012, 06:47:09 AM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/mar2907a/ (http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/mar2907a/)
"While the revisions are under way, the AHE program will take no new enrollees."
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 13, 2012, 06:53:36 AM
Master Hunter Applications will only be accepted during the open enrollment period of January 1 – February 15 of each year. All program requirements must be completed by November 15, of the year the application is received.
Post by: Dip-Zag on December 15, 2012, 09:52:55 AM
To be clear my beef is with this ruling and not Master Hunters (MH). The MHs I've met are great guys. We need more MHs to promote the sport! I am a proponent of the program improvement as well and a member of CORT. I want to see more hunters, with more opportunities to hunt.
That being said: The current situation is not appropriate. The State is using their administrative power to create a special class of hunters entitled to draw hunts for animals that are a natural resource of all WA State residents. It is not equitable, in addition, I wonder if the WAC grants this power.... I'm done with my rant, I will pursue it with the state.
Post by: Bob33 on December 15, 2012, 11:23:37 AM
The State is using their administrative power to create a special class of hunters entitled to draw hunts for animals that are a natural resource of all WA State residents.How is that different than allocating a certain number of permits (for a natural resource owned by all residents) to muzzleloader hunters, archery hunters, disabled hunters, senior hunters, and so forth?
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 15, 2012, 01:33:27 PM
Sky traditionally your statement is correct; however, this suspension is different. Please see the announcement by WDFW.
To be clear my beef is with this ruling and not Master Hunters (MH). The MHs I've met are great guys. We need more MHs to promote the sport! I am a proponent of the program improvement as well and a member of CORT. I want to see more hunters, with more opportunities to hunt.
That being said: The current situation is not appropriate. The State is using their administrative power to create a special class of hunters entitled to draw hunts for animals that are a natural resource of all WA State residents. It is not equitable, in addition, I wonder if the WAC grants this power.... I'm done with my rant, I will pursue it with the state.
I respectfully suggest that you're reading too much into the "ruling", as you call it. The program only has so many resources and therefor, so much capacity for enrollment. There are a set number of WDFW employees who work on the MH program as part of their regular service and beyond a certain number of enrollees, it becomes unmanageable.
I will have to agree with you that the MH program is about creating a special class of hunters. But special class is not the same as restricted class - When there are slots open in the program, it's open to everyone without a record or wildlife infractions to enroll in the program and complete the fairly rigorous requirements toward certification. They then use dedicated hunters, sworn to ethics and tested to competence, to complete needed conservation projects and keep a check on overpopulation and wildlife-caused damage, utilizing people who are sensitive to public perception.
This isn't to say that there aren't bad apples and people who abuse the system. But, those who display bad ethics or break rules are open to expulsion because they don't represent the program in a positive and ethical fashion.
So, to characterize this a simply a club that gets special tags is disingenuous. The state knows it needs massive volunteer hours to help with conservation and is willing to reward those volunteers with tags. Dip-zag, it's perfectly fair and will be open to you and others when some spots open up. I do suggest, however, that there are gains you can garner from the program that far outweigh the freebies.
Post by: Dip-Zag on December 25, 2012, 08:23:29 AM
Post by: Simcoe hunter on January 13, 2013, 12:02:34 AM
Post by: Annette on January 13, 2013, 12:42:24 AM
Apparently they don't need any more volunteer hours than can be filled by their current crop of MH's when they complete hours for renewal. This has created a special class, unless they open it again and soon. Any year that there is a suspension in new enrollment, for any period of time, there shouldn't be any MH tags available.
[/quote
If there if that would open it up for EVERYONE!!!!]
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 13, 2013, 08:59:07 AM
Apparently they don't need any more volunteer hours than can be filled by their current crop of MH's when they complete hours for renewal. This has created a special class, unless they open it again and soon. Any year that there is a suspension in new enrollment, for any period of time, there shouldn't be any MH tags available.
The problem is administrating the program for the number of people enrolled. They've reached the maximum number they can handle with the DFW man hours allotted.
Post by: Bob33 on January 13, 2013, 09:01:53 AM
Post by: Simcoe hunter on January 13, 2013, 10:23:41 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 14, 2013, 07:14:53 AM
They can't administer the program due to the MH's allotted? Sounds like the state got in over it's head. Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
No. They stopped enrollment before they get in over their heads. They'll open it back up when there are some open slots available.
Post by: Simcoe hunter on February 03, 2013, 09:08:52 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on February 04, 2013, 06:15:54 AM
So any time there aren't open slots there shouldn't be a MH drawing that year either.
Correct, it's a limited enrollment.
Post by: Dip-Zag on April 17, 2013, 09:31:58 PM
I agree with Simcoe - No MH slots = no MH drawings. That is the only equitable solution.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 18, 2013, 06:11:40 AM
"So any time there aren't open slots there shouldn't be a MH drawing that year either."
I agree with Simcoe - No MH slots = no MH drawings. That is the only equitable solution.
The existing 2,000 Master Hunters still have to perform yearly conservation volunteering - at least 16,000 free hours improving habitat. These people who are currently enrolled and actively helping conservation in this state shouldn't get their tags? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You don't penalize the volunteers because the program's been so successful that it's full.
I'm sorry you didn't get the chance to sign up this year, Dip. But, your solution to penalize the volunteers isn't equitable.
Post by: Dip-Zag on April 18, 2013, 05:09:05 PM
Post by: Simcoe hunter on April 18, 2013, 08:36:14 PM
Post by: coachcw on April 18, 2013, 08:53:05 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 18, 2013, 08:54:19 PM
Further, We all volunteer, not just MHs. So it's truly is not equitable allow the privilege to these additional tags and cap enrollment .Your point might have merit if the permits were available as a reward simply for volunteer hours. There is more to becoming a Master Hunter than volunteer hours.
Those who are in the program have the same requirements now as they did before the temporary enrollment freeze, and therefore should not be treated any differently.
If you really believe the permits are that valuable then become a Master Hunter when enrollment reopens.
Post by: jaymark6655 on April 19, 2013, 05:16:16 AM
Do you really want your tax dollars going to pay someone to hunt these hunts?
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2013, 06:12:17 AM
You're statement is not accurate. You don't have to record volunteer hours every year to qualify as a "Master Hunter." You only have to fill a volunteer hours quota every 5 years. Further, We all volunteer, not just MHs. So it's truly is not equitable allow the privilege to these additional tags and cap enrollment . I understand that you are an MH, vested with these privileges and, therefore, we will agree to disagree. Fundamentally, I'm positive you know this is unfair.
Not everyone volunteers, so that's just not true. I'm sorry you're not in the program, but since this is the first year that I recall enrollment being suspended, what has kept you back from performing the work to do it in the past?
This is an old broken record. People who've not been willing to put in the time to do the course moaning about the tags and how unfair it is. Sorry, but I did the work and got my MH certification, and it wasn't easy. These hunts are only the icing on the cake and many of them produce nothing for the hunter - no call to go, no elk at the farmer's farm. Unless you're a brand new resident within the last year, you've had the opportunity to participate and, for whatever reason, chose not to. Your problem. Stop trying to belittle my efforts and take away my opportunities because you didn't do the work.
Post by: cem3434 on April 19, 2013, 08:46:24 AM
I understand that many of you have done the work and put in the time to become a MH. The problem is, when WDFW decided to suspend the program they don't afford all other hunters the same oppurtunity to become a MH, thus making a special class of hunters. Legally, they may get theirselves in a bind if someone really wanted to push the issue because this goes against everything our liberal government preaches and they are discriminating against individuals who havent completed the course.
I am opposed to cutting off the tags to MH's, but I think that WDFW needs to get there sh%t together and open the program back up. Good luck to all the MH's and maybe someday I will be there too!
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2013, 08:58:10 AM
I think some of you guys are missing the point. I understand that WDFW thinks there is no need for additional MH's right now because they are figuring out a way to manage the program. With that being said, I dont understand how you cant see it as a "special class" of hunters until they re-open enrollment.
I understand that many of you have done the work and put in the time to become a MH. The problem is, when WDFW decided to suspend the program they don't afford all other hunters the same oppurtunity to become a MH, thus making a special class of hunters. Legally, they may get theirselves in a bind if someone really wanted to push the issue because this goes against everything our liberal government preaches and they are discriminating against individuals who havent completed the course.
I am opposed to cutting off the tags to MH's, but I think that WDFW needs to get there sh%t together and open the program back up. Good luck to all the MH's and maybe someday I will be there too!
Your "special class of hunters" point is moot. Before enrollment was suspended this year, you've all had the opportunity to enroll and you didn't, for whatever reason; not enough time, didn't believe in it, whatever. But now that enrollment is suspended, it gives you and excuse to throw me under the bus? You have a problem with the WDFW suspending enrollment. Go after them, not me. I'm a fellow hunter who's done extra work to achieve MH status. Stop trying to take away the benefits afforded me for doing so.
If you don't like the program, tell your state elected officials to put pressure on the DFW to end it. If you want to enroll, jump on it when they open it up again. If you want to be bitter because I have something you don't, keep it to yourself. I'm not the one who held you back from participating in previous years when it was available.
Post by: 206 on April 19, 2013, 09:07:27 AM
The problem is, when WDFW decided to suspend the program they don't afford all other hunters the same oppurtunity to become a MH, thus making a special class of hunters. Legally, they may get theirselves in a bind if someone really wanted to push the issue because this goes against everything our liberal government preaches and they are discriminating against individuals who havent completed the course.
:tup:
Post by: nwwanderer on April 19, 2013, 09:18:06 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on April 19, 2013, 09:29:19 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2013, 09:43:14 AM
I think the whole program "idea" is a great one. However from the few guys I have talked to that went through the program they have said that it seems to have been badly managed (Just what I heard). And that is the reason that I haven't looked into it more. I have only been hunting for about 5 years though. I do think it is unfair to have special hunts and permits that are not available but to a select few. And I would agree with cem3434 that this could and maybe should be challenged in court.
Challenging what in court, exactly? The MH hunts are usually high visibility, damage control hunts, which require a minimum level of learning and proficiency to prove the qualifications of the hunter before the state is willing to risk the reputation of all hunters by sending someone in to do the job. That's the purpose of the program. Do some hunters already have the skills required to be a MH without taking the course? Sure. Does the state have any way of verifying that without them taking the course? No. It's a specific program for a specific purpose. There are many hunts that have pre-requisites for hunters to be eligible. You can't hunt geese in 2A and 2B without having passed a goose identification. Some state require a class before you can bowhunt. Some require a class to be able to obtain a moose or sheep tag because of the rigors and the chance of failure by not properly identifying the game. The same is true of those hunts in the public eye, the MH tags.
And again, you've all had the chance to take the program during previous years and have chosen not to. That's on you, not me. Leave my privileges alone. Sour grapes because I did the work and you didn't. Tough.
Post by: jaymark6655 on April 19, 2013, 10:16:25 AM
:yeah:I think the whole program "idea" is a great one. However from the few guys I have talked to that went through the program they have said that it seems to have been badly managed (Just what I heard). And that is the reason that I haven't looked into it more. I have only been hunting for about 5 years though. I do think it is unfair to have special hunts and permits that are not available but to a select few. And I would agree with cem3434 that this could and maybe should be challenged in court.
Challenging what in court, exactly? The MH hunts are usually high visibility, damage control hunts, which require a minimum level of learning and proficiency to prove the qualifications of the hunter before the state is willing to risk the reputation of all hunters by sending someone in to do the job. That's the purpose of the program. Do some hunters already have the skills required to be a MH without taking the course? Sure. Does the state have any way of verifying that without them taking the course? No. It's a specific program for a specific purpose. There are many hunts that have pre-requisites for hunters to be eligible. You can't hunt geese in 2A and 2B without having passed a goose identification. Some state require a class before you can bowhunt. Some require a class to be able to obtain a moose or sheep tag because of the rigors and the chance of failure by not properly identifying the game. The same is true of those hunts in the public eye, the MH tags.
And again, you've all had the chance to take the program during previous years and have chosen not to. That's on you, not me. Leave my privileges alone. Sour grapes because I did the work and you didn't. Tough.
Since no one seems to have read it the first few times I have stated it.
The mistake is thinking those tags would ever go into the general draw or any kind of draw available to everyone. If they don't go to the master hunter, then the state would more than likely hire professional hunters for the control hunts just like other states do.
Do you really want your tax dollars going to pay someone to hunt these hunts?
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2013, 10:18:39 AM
Post by: cem3434 on April 19, 2013, 12:35:32 PM
I think some of you guys are missing the point. I understand that WDFW thinks there is no need for additional MH's right now because they are figuring out a way to manage the program. With that being said, I dont understand how you cant see it as a "special class" of hunters until they re-open enrollment.
I understand that many of you have done the work and put in the time to become a MH. The problem is, when WDFW decided to suspend the program they don't afford all other hunters the same opportunity to become a MH, thus making a special class of hunters. Legally, they may get theirselves in a bind if someone really wanted to push the issue because this goes against everything our liberal government preaches and they are discriminating against individuals who havent completed the course.
I am opposed to cutting off the tags to MH's, but I think that WDFW needs to get there sh%t together and open the program back up. Good luck to all the MH's and maybe someday I will be there too!
Your "special class of hunters" point is moot. Before enrollment was suspended this year, you've all had the opportunity to enroll and you didn't, for whatever reason; not enough time, didn't believe in it, whatever. But now that enrollment is suspended, it gives you and excuse to throw me under the bus? You have a problem with the WDFW suspending enrollment. Go after them, not me. I'm a fellow hunter who's done extra work to achieve MH status. Stop trying to take away the benefits afforded me for doing so.
If you don't like the program, tell your state elected officials to put pressure on the DFW to end it. If you want to enroll, jump on it when they open it up again. If you want to be bitter because I have something you don't, keep it to yourself. I'm not the one who held you back from participating in previous years when it was available.
You seem to be a very angry individual. Maybe you should pull your head out an re-read what I said and maybe then you wouldn't think my point is moot.
As I stated before, I do not support punishing the guys that are MH's by cutting tags and opportunities for guys that have already put in the work. I must say, that you are also very ignorant if you truly believe that by suspending enrollment and punishing all of the guys that want to be MH's is not creating a "special class" of MH's. I personally don't have the time or want to be a MH at this time, so your argument is a moot point to me because you assumed that I wanted to join the program now. I said someday I maybe a MH, but its not in the cards for me right now.
Again, I'm not pushing to punish any of the existing MH's, but I think that WDFW is not letting everyone play fairly. If everyone is not afforded the same opportunities, regardless of why they chose not to sign up in the past, then WDFW has indeed created a special class of hunters! :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2013, 01:21:34 PM
Post by: elk247 on April 19, 2013, 01:26:53 PM
Post by: elk247 on April 19, 2013, 01:40:25 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2013, 02:25:32 PM
Post by: elk247 on April 19, 2013, 02:48:24 PM
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 19, 2013, 02:59:25 PM
Whether or not the program opens back up, I think this should be implemented. In fact, I might write my representative...
Post by: elk247 on April 19, 2013, 03:05:52 PM
Post by: luvmystang67 on April 19, 2013, 03:08:56 PM
Thats a great idea, however marksmanship is a big issue with alot of damage controll hunts because of buildings, vacinity to a road and within view of the general public. Maybe these issues can be addressed. I think its a good idea though.
Maybe a master hunter is armed for a back-up shot if necessary. They can ensure a youth takes a responsible shot. Even master hunters have the capability of placing a bad shot, even if it is a reduced possibility, it is not eliminated.
Post by: elk247 on April 19, 2013, 03:25:49 PM
Post by: darkarcher on April 19, 2013, 05:40:47 PM
Post by: turkeyfeather on April 19, 2013, 05:53:34 PM
I have no problem with anybody getting special hunts cause they took a special class. My concern is that nobody else has that opportunity and that it becomes "the good ol' boys club". I have no interest in taking the class or the special hunts, but my boys may want to someday and at this point could not. That's my problem. No sour grapes here. You took the class I didn't. Good for you, maybe now you can see things from the other side instead of jumping to conclusions. If you are against anybody else ever having the same opportunity you have (I may even change my mind someday) then you should lose that opportunity. :twocents:I think the whole program "idea" is a great one. However from the few guys I have talked to that went through the program they have said that it seems to have been badly managed (Just what I heard). And that is the reason that I haven't looked into it more. I have only been hunting for about 5 years though. I do think it is unfair to have special hunts and permits that are not available but to a select few. And I would agree with cem3434 that this could and maybe should be challenged in court.
Challenging what in court, exactly? The MH hunts are usually high visibility, damage control hunts, which require a minimum level of learning and proficiency to prove the qualifications of the hunter before the state is willing to risk the reputation of all hunters by sending someone in to do the job. That's the purpose of the program. Do some hunters already have the skills required to be a MH without taking the course? Sure. Does the state have any way of verifying that without them taking the course? No. It's a specific program for a specific purpose. There are many hunts that have pre-requisites for hunters to be eligible. You can't hunt geese in 2A and 2B without having passed a goose identification. Some state require a class before you can bowhunt. Some require a class to be able to obtain a moose or sheep tag because of the rigors and the chance of failure by not properly identifying the game. The same is true of those hunts in the public eye, the MH tags.
And again, you've all had the chance to take the program during previous years and have chosen not to. That's on you, not me. Leave my privileges alone. Sour grapes because I did the work and you didn't. Tough.
Post by: Bob33 on April 19, 2013, 06:05:01 PM
To be clear, nobody else would have that opportunity now anyway. The enrollment period is usually the first six weeks of the year.
Yes, the 100 or so individuals that would have become Master Hunters this year did not due to the temporary freeze. That's unfortunate. It doesn't seem to me that a one year delay of perhaps five percent more hunters in the "good ol' boys club" is really something to get worked up over, especially since the "good ol boys" didn't make the decision.
Post by: turkeyfeather on April 19, 2013, 06:12:10 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 19, 2013, 06:19:54 PM
Don't take it personal Bob. I was making a point about how it can be perceived. Don't get your panties in a bunch. And we all know how this state works. It starts out as a one year hold and next thing you know is it becomes permanent. That is what I fear. I don't think that is an illegitimate fear.(a) I don't take it personal; (b) I don't wear panties; (c) it won't be permanent. :tup:
Post by: turkeyfeather on April 19, 2013, 06:22:44 PM
:tup: Good stuff.Don't take it personal Bob. I was making a point about how it can be perceived. Don't get your panties in a bunch. And we all know how this state works. It starts out as a one year hold and next thing you know is it becomes permanent. That is what I fear. I don't think that is an illegitimate fear.(a) I don't take it personal; (b) I don't wear panties; (c) it won't be permanent. :tup:
Post by: Dan-o on April 19, 2013, 06:27:29 PM
I think I've been in for 9 years now. The best part about the program for me has been meeting a couple landowners and working with them.
Last year I hazed elk off a farm probably 40 night after work. It was cool and a good excuse to get out and walk and (sometimes see some elk). The farmer eventually got a depredation permit, but it was only good for him or a 1st order family member so I didn't get a hunt out of it.
I'm already looking forward to going back out - actually made my first visit last weekend, but no crop = no elk.
I've been called out for 1 special hunt in 9 years (and the elk spotted me and headed off the property..... :'()......... so if you're in it for the hunting, you will be disappointed.
That being said, I figure the state probably has the right to decide how many they want in the program...... But I'm in so that's easy for me to say.
Post by: Dan-o on April 19, 2013, 06:29:33 PM
Don't take it personal Bob. I was making a point about how it can be perceived. Don't get your panties in a bunch. And we all know how this state works. It starts out as a one year hold and next thing you know is it becomes permanent. That is what I fear. I don't think that is an illegitimate fear.(a) I don't take it personal; (b) I don't wear panties; (c) it won't be permanent. :tup:
come on, bob..... (b) = TMI............ :sry:
Post by: nwwanderer on April 19, 2013, 08:12:40 PM
Post by: Dan-o on April 19, 2013, 08:19:57 PM
Did you witness this first hand? It sounds as though you were on the hunt with them? :dunno:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 19, 2013, 08:29:58 PM
Post by: Dan-o on April 19, 2013, 08:34:52 PM
(Of course, I think that's their prerogative, but that's what the debates about. )
Post by: Tbar on April 19, 2013, 08:42:17 PM
I'm sure that there's some master hunters that are great hunters . but the mh program is a joke ! they should have to qualifiy as a true master not a trash picker ! Don't get me wrong I believe in stewertship of the land but that program should be dumped .:yeah:
I can tell you first hand how the master hunter program is not working. It has taken a successful damage hunt and turned it into a joke, costing the state money (in damage claims).
Post by: Dan-o on April 19, 2013, 08:59:01 PM
Post by: Tbar on April 19, 2013, 10:26:28 PM
This area has had damage concerns for 30+ years. The last 10+ it has become increasingly successful by individual hunters putting their time in and building relationships with landowners. The hunters would secure permission and then contact the wdfw for damage tags. This turned into a pretty hardcore group of archers that would put a ton (30+) days hazing and hunting each. (several of these guys are on here) This worked out well relatively speaking keeping the elk out of the ag lands from september until march, most if not all of these guys would haze elk with little notice. The elk became very weary of human interaction, they would bolt at the sight of a truck (not farm equipment). Thus making the archery hunt very challenging to say the very least. At the conclusion of the archery portion of the hunt the tags were turned over to the landowner to distribute as he saw fit. This system was working very well and resulted in (1) several hundred hours of free hazing (2) opportunity for guys directly linked to the landowners, who earned site specific access and permission, to hunt an extended season (3) achieved herd reduction at levels approved by the bios and directors (4) this core group had zero complaints (to my knowledge) from the surrounding community, most if the hunters are community members.
This year (2012) it switched to a MH hunt. It went from a archery/mf hunt, with the lions share going to archers, to a short range firearm season. I documented 50+ days where the elk never left the ag fields. They did roam from farm to farm but stayed in the kill zones the entire time. I watched on 4 separate occasions where MHs pulled in, drove the visible portions and left. There are several hidden fields that they never accessed (during my observation). During this time the elk became tame, on several occasions we were within 25 yards of calm (yet alert) elk within the kill zone and with no cover. The elk would seemingly pattern the mhs and come out mid morning and mid day.
Now to the actual harvest by a master hunter (who is a member on here). We were watching the elk as we did every morning and a black truck pulls barely off the state highway, uses his door as a rest and shoots an elk with a scoped pistol. I leave knowing it's a mh (i knew the truck). I then receive 2 different phone calls from the school bus asking who shot the elk. Yes if it was the eagle festival us as hunters would have received another black eye(imo).
Now I don't find fault with the bios or the coordinater(he it's spread way too thin), I think the program has many inherent flaws. I also know several "master hunters", some if which could put me to shame, but most couldn't out hunt my 13 year old daughter. Some have even stated to me their motivation to be in the program is their inability to find successful harvests when hunting with the masses.
I know this is a somewhat isolated case and may or may not be representative of the entire program, it's a scenario that plays out and is not unique to this specific hunt .
Post by: Dan-o on April 19, 2013, 10:38:06 PM
that's a bummer for the archers who lost that opportunity.
It's always tough when something like that gets taken away.
Post by: Tbar on April 19, 2013, 11:04:52 PM
Post by: Kowsrule30 on April 21, 2013, 11:02:21 AM
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2013, 11:08:04 AM
Wow.As I recall the archers made international news with images on television of elk running around trying to escape and across highways with arrows sticking out. Talk about a black eye.
that's a bummer for the archers who lost that opportunity.
It's always tough when something like that gets taken away.
Post by: Dan-o on April 21, 2013, 11:17:09 AM
Wow.As I recall the archers made international news with images on television of elk running around trying to escape and across highways with arrows sticking out. Talk about a black eye.
that's a bummer for the archers who lost that opportunity.
It's always tough when something like that gets taken away.
I remember those pics. It was a fiasco.
but I also was personally involved in a similar fiasco in the Wenas probably 15-20 years ago. Nothing I did on purpose, but about 40 elk ended up trapped and slaughtered by way too many guys.
Post by: Tbar on April 21, 2013, 11:46:05 AM
Thats is why I said another black eye.Wow.As I recall the archers made international news with images on television of elk running around trying to escape and across highways with arrows sticking out. Talk about a black eye.
that's a bummer for the archers who lost that opportunity.
It's always tough when something like that gets taken away.
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2013, 12:21:06 PM
What's the point here?
Post by: jstone on April 21, 2013, 12:22:38 PM
Post by: Tbar on April 21, 2013, 12:41:17 PM
"...pulls barely off the state highway, uses his door as a rest and shoots an elk with a scoped pistol."This exact thing was the #1 complaint when the Skagit river hunt was muzzy hunt. Then the archery fiasco. This would paint hunters in general in a bad light. Shooting on the road side of a fence at a pregnant cow then gutting it in plain view of a state highway not dragging it out of view (which was possible). We as hunters were just lucky it was only witnessed by community members who are educated on the big picture and somewhat understanding of the management side of things. This just appeared to be poor judgement for a pr perspective.
What's the point here?
Post by: Bob33 on April 21, 2013, 12:46:45 PM
I agree with that."...pulls barely off the state highway, uses his door as a rest and shoots an elk with a scoped pistol."This exact thing was the #1 complaint when the Skagit river hunt was muzzy hunt. Then the archery fiasco. This would paint hunters in general in a bad light. Shooting on the road side of a fence at a pregnant cow then gutting it in plain view of a state highway not dragging it out of view (which was possible). We as hunters were just lucky it was only witnessed by community members who are educated on the big picture and somewhat understanding of the management side of things. This just appeared to be poor judgement for a pr perspective.
What's the point here?
Post by: Tbar on April 21, 2013, 12:46:58 PM
Don't need it. I would rather make the hunts draws for kids, handicapped, disabled vets. MH program in my opinion doesn't make you any better. :twocents:I would have to disagree here too. These hunts are too complicated to allow youth. I think in that case they are better in the mh program. The hunts get very complex and are not a scene to teach kids how to "hunt" imo.