Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 08, 2012, 11:41:02 PM
:bash: How much more is there to discuss on this topic? It seems this has been a topic of discussion for at least the past 15 years. I am guessing it's the same people bringing it up over and over again... If they are successful in removing it I wish I could find something they use just so I could make it a personal agenda to have it changed.
It seems like deer/elk baiting is an issue that is brought up every time there is a chance. I think it has remained by the slimmest of margins in the recent past. This is probably due to the fact that it is the smallest user group (archery whitetail and archery late season elk hunters ) that primarily use bait (though I know many don't). Fortunately...in the past... there have been a good number of firearm guys that may not use the method but certainly aren't going to support having hunters rights removed.....but that number seems to be growing smaller and smaller... in this state I have found that there seems to be a large percentage of fellow hunters that stand ready to remove hunters rights just because they don't use or like this tool (that is of great value to hunters on public land mature big woods mountain whitetail...even if only used for inventory ). Every time I hear the same flawed logic and reasoning to justify the position (such as bringing up deer starving while on the feed..which doesn't happen with hunting bait in Nov/Dec...but rather "emergency" feeding by do gooders.. .. or spread of disease...which anyone who understands whitetail behavior realizes they are extremely social animals and every animal within that local group is constantly coming into contact with each other...not to mention it has yet to be proven that this has caused any serious or even minor issue...and this includes issues with CWD..which we know were blown way out of proportion...particularly in WI)
Then there are those who don't see baiting as "hunting" or as not "fair chase". Which automatically tells me they have probably never tried to kill a mature buck over bait... but aside from that... if you don't like it...then you don't have to do it... It still blows my mind that someone with that view would try to remove this liberty from other hunters.
I can tell you this... the legal baiting of "big woods" whitetail deer in WA state makes for a hunting experience that you can't get anywhere else in this region short of going to British Colombia or Saskatchewan Canada. It would be a shame to remove this valuable tool from the hunters tool-belt.
I know a guy over in Idaho that uses feed to inventory the deer (which is perfectly legal). Yet he is constantly being harassed by the game department because someone reports the feed or they think he is going to "hunt" over it.... He actually gave it up this year because it was too much hassle. I hope WA doesn't go that way.... but I fear it will.
Post by: elkaholic on December 09, 2012, 12:00:28 AM
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2012, 04:51:24 AM
I used to think mountain lions were really cool and why would anyone want to kill one, so I decided I would not, not that they should not. However, after trying some steaks, I would definitely shoot one now. :drool:
It is frustrating when hunters won't support other hunters even if they do not use whatever the method is.
Post by: bwhntr350 on December 09, 2012, 07:00:34 AM
I do not bait but I, definitely, do not see a problem with it. I, also, know zero people who have ever killed anything over bait.
And, in my opinion, you are correct about hunters eating their own. We all have one common goal and that is to enjoy the outdoors. People these days seem to feel the need to hate on others that are not exactly the same as them and that is destructive to the entire group, not just the one's being hated upon:(
Post by: Bob33 on December 09, 2012, 07:22:24 AM
Another example may cement the point. The practice of "baiting" game animals is constantly debated among hunters as a question of "hunting ethics." (I will ignore for the moment concerns about CWD and the like.) Critics say that baiting is too easy and that it reduces the amount of effort and skills needed to successfully hunt game animals such as deer, bear, or moose. Practitioners of the art of baiting typically respond, "Don't knock it unless you've tried it." Aside from the moral issues surrounding the vice of laziness and related moral concerns about the lack of human character such a vice implies, baiting does not seem to be an "ethical" issue per se as much as it is an aesthetic issue. Let me explain.
In northern Wisconsin there is at least one individual that I know of who begins his daily baiting of deer at least two months before the beginning of deer season. Reasoning that he wants the deer to show up at his stand in the woods when he is there, he goes out to the woods twice a day: once in the morning to lay out his spread of corn, apples, sugar beets, and whatever else he uses to attract deer to his location, and then once again in the evening to take it all away. That's two trips a day, for two months: or 120 trips to the woods, all in the hopes that the deer become habituated to visiting his chosen site only in daylight (legal shooting) hours. During the two months of baiting, this individual also occasionally climbs in his tree stand over the bait pile for the pleasure of simply watching the deer that come by. His enjoyment of deer hunting is thus extended considerably in this way, and during the time period when he is simply a wildlife watcher certainly does not involve killing in any way. All of this is for the privilege of being able to select his own venison, "on the hoof" so to speak, come opening day.
Another deer hunter hunts his own land and sits under apple trees that the previous owners planted some seventy-five to a hundred years earlier. He shoots and kills the first deer that comes along on opening day.
Who is to say which hunter has the richer, more authentic hunting experience? If the primary objection against the practice of "baiting" is that it is too easy and requires little or no effort, then certainly the Wisconsin deer hunter has put far more effort into killing his deer than has his counterpart who has merely staked out his deer stand on opening day and rather opportunistically "hunted" the deer he knows beforehand will frequent his apple trees.
In the case of the habitual deer baiter, what outsiders would criticize as unfair advantage and unsporting practice actually contributes to a year round interest in deer. The deer baiter is probably more of a "hunter-naturalist" or "nature hunter" than most hunters. His shot at close range on opening day is almost assured of being a well-aimed, carefully selected, and quickly killing clean shot.
The second hunter may hunt only deer; and only hunt once a year. His hunting experience lasts approximately an hour, or two at the most, among the apple trees on opening day. He may not give much thought to nature, to deer biology, to the wind or the vagaries of scent, or to much else. (Perhaps he is a college professor who is in a hurry to get back into the office for a 9:30 appointment with a student advisee.) Nonetheless, his shot at close range on opening day is almost equally assured of being a well-aimed, carefully sighted, and quickly killing clean shot.
And yet at the moment of the kill, each of these two individuals may feel that pang of remorse: that momentary sense of pity and fear, of attraction and repulsion at what they have done-regret for having killed, but gladness for having done it well. That emotional response may in fact be partly what drives them each year to make the effort that they do make, to get up well before dawn on opening day and to go afield in pursuit of killing a deer. Each individual experiences the hunt in a different way. Each individual takes care to ensure that there is a high probability of killing the animal almost instantly if and when the opportunity to shoot presents itself.
Where these two hunters' experience differs is in the respective style or aesthetics of their hunts, not in the ethics of their hunts. "Ethics" generally is a term that is chronically misused in the popular hunting press. Each hunter follows his own ritual way of preparing for the hunt; each hunter conscientiously minimizes the chances of wounding and losing a deer; and each hunter enjoys the hunt in his own fashion. "Baiting" of game animals seems to attract the same type of criticisms that the potting of sitting ducks does, and for similar reasons. But I think it important to recognize that each form is simply a variation on a theme: the musical metaphor is apt.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 11:04:11 AM
Thanks for the post, start planting your apple trees now.
I used to think mountain lions were really cool and why would anyone want to kill one, so I decided I would not, not that they should not. However, after trying some steaks, I would definitely shoot one now. :drool:
It is frustrating when hunters won't support other hunters even if they do not use whatever the method is.
Yes...mountain lion is some good eating...some of the best wild game I have had. :drool:
Post by: grundy53 on December 09, 2012, 11:19:19 AM
Post by: huntnphool on December 09, 2012, 11:23:27 AM
Fu#$ing liberal whiners!
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 11:26:57 AM
If they ban bait then what will they do to someone sitting next to a food plot..............or alfalfa field...................or water hole? Its all technically "bait".
Fu#$ing liberal whiners!
Exactly.The non-landowner/pubic land hunter/little guy is the one that will really lose out if they ban baiting.
Post by: huntnphool on December 09, 2012, 11:30:32 AM
It always cracks me up when you run across one of the rare hunters that says baiting is bad, yet they have no issues sitting in a tree stand over a field of alfalfa, winter wheat or water hole, or hunting with the ultimate bait................a doe in estrus during the rut. :bash:If they ban bait then what will they do to someone sitting next to a food plot..............or alfalfa field...................or water hole? Its all technically "bait".
Fu#$ing liberal whiners!
Exactly.The non-landowner/pubic land hunter/little guy is the one that will really lose out if they ban baiting.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 11:32:31 AM
More than anything I hope baiting is still allowed when I introduce my kids to hunting.
Post by: Kowsrule30 on December 09, 2012, 12:40:37 PM
Post by: L8NITE on December 09, 2012, 12:54:33 PM
Post by: LittleJohn on December 09, 2012, 01:06:05 PM
I am sure all "Master-Baiters" :chuckle: could still kill mature deer without the corn and hay. A little more scouting and work maybe.
I am not anti-baiting. I did the NE corner whitetail bait show one season. It was fun, but felt a little like cheating.
A very good friend of mine is more successful and kills more mature bucks without bait. Just has them figured out :tup: :twocents:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 02:31:16 PM
No baiting allowed here in Montana. Some how guys manage to kill big whitetails without bait.
I am sure all "Master-Baiters" :chuckle: could still kill mature deer without the corn and hay. A little more scouting and work maybe.
I am not anti-baiting. I did the NE corner whitetail bait show one season. It was fun, but felt a little like cheating.
A very good friend of mine is more successful and kills more mature bucks without bait. Just has them figured out :tup: :twocents:
Undoubtedly a guy can kill a mature deer without bait... that's beside the point. It's also possible to kill them with traditional archery equipment if a guy were to put in a little more time and practice. Should we ban all other weapons? (I know your not anti-baiting...just making a point)
Baiting is far from a short cut for consistent success on mature whitetail. I have killed big bucks with and without bait and I spent far more time, money and effort on the bucks I killed with bait. What baiting has allowed me to do is find far more mature bucks than would be otherwise possible....and get some awesome trail cam pics.
Post by: hughjorgan on December 09, 2012, 03:00:47 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 03:10:27 PM
I don't see a need to ban baiting, i have found quite a few stands that put out salt licks and alfalfa, but it always makes me wonder if success for archery would go down with out it?
If it did maybe we could shorten the rifle season and lengthen the bow season so success rates match up with the modern season (isn't that the logic they used a few years back to cut the bow season because success rates where higher than modern?)
I do believe that success rates would fall. There is no question that baiting is very effective if your goal is to kill any legal deer.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 09, 2012, 03:15:04 PM
I don't see a need to ban baiting, i have found quite a few stands that put out salt licks and alfalfa, but it always makes me wonder if success for archery would go down with out it?
If it did maybe we could shorten the rifle season and lengthen the bow season so success rates match up with the modern season (isn't that the logic they used a few years back to cut the bow season because success rates where higher than modern?)
I do believe that success rates would fall. There is no question that baiting is very effective if your goal is to kill any legal deer.
Be careful of what you wish for!! I still have a longbow and my muzzleloaders are sidelocks. If they ever revert to what the Primitive seasons were set for. :hello:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 03:38:23 PM
I don't see a need to ban baiting, i have found quite a few stands that put out salt licks and alfalfa, but it always makes me wonder if success for archery would go down with out it?
If it did maybe we could shorten the rifle season and lengthen the bow season so success rates match up with the modern season (isn't that the logic they used a few years back to cut the bow season because success rates where higher than modern?)
I do believe that success rates would fall. There is no question that baiting is very effective if your goal is to kill any legal deer.
Be careful of what you wish for!! I still have a longbow and my muzzleloaders are sidelocks. If they ever revert to what the Primitive seasons were set for. :hello:
I don't wish for it but I see it going that way. Hunters will keep finding a way to keep cutting away from our own rights.
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2012, 07:44:30 PM
My wife's first deer died with an apple still in its mouth. :chuckle:
We feed Allstock during the winter to help the deer out when the eating is tough, it's fun to watch the deer and help them out when needed.
Post by: bobcat on December 09, 2012, 08:02:05 PM
Ocassionally, a young buck will make a mistake and come out a little early.
I found it's especially a good method of hunting for a first time hunter:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 08:08:24 PM
Baiting is not easy. It's a lot of work, and more often than not the deer only come to the bait when it's dark.
Ocassionally, a young buck will make a mistake and come out a little early.
I found it's especially a good method of hunting for a first time hunter:
That is why I hope it's around when my kids start hunting. It's a good way to get does and young bucks in and have them hang around for a while.. just an all around good experience for a first time hunter.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 09, 2012, 08:12:11 PM
These had figured out when the stuff hangs up in the feeder how to shake it!
Post by: bobcat on December 09, 2012, 08:20:39 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2012, 08:23:29 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 08:23:41 PM
Well to say that you can't condition deer!
These had figured out when the stuff hangs up in the feeder how to shake it!
:chuckle: Thats funny right there.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 08:24:32 PM
That's why I try not to leave much there after dark, gets them looking earlier for it. ;)
yep...during the season that is something I am going to change up next year...see if I get more daylight activity.
Post by: bobcat on December 09, 2012, 08:45:45 PM
That's why I try not to leave much there after dark, gets them looking earlier for it. ;)
Never thought of that. But I always would try to bring in enough so I'd only have to re-bait twice a week.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 09, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
That's why I try not to leave much there after dark, gets them looking earlier for it. ;)
Never thought of that. But I always would try to bring in enough so I'd only have to re-bait twice a week.
When I use a spin feeder they hear the motor run and they are there in 10 minutes. I used to go just force the feeder at noon and watch the stampede.
especially if it had run dry
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2012, 08:55:06 PM
That's why I try not to leave much there after dark, gets them looking earlier for it. ;)
Never thought of that. But I always would try to bring in enough so I'd only have to re-bait twice a week.
That's an advantage I have in that my bait sites are only about five minutes from my house and 20 feet off the roads. 8)
Post by: buck man on December 09, 2012, 09:03:14 PM
I like many other baiters spend countless hours running baits,(11 in my case) changing batteries, hanging stands all for the off chance you can get that mature buck. Weather plays a huge role in our success of baiting. The winter of 09 was a prime example. Ample snow and bucks losing their inhibitions. Then came the gun hunters saying we killed too many mature deer. Yes we killed a few good bucks, but in my 11 years baiting that was an exceptional year.
How about the costs we incure for nothing more than enjoyment of the hunt? My wife chokes when she sees the bill for 8 ton second cutting alfalfa, 4000# corn, 8000# bean screenings, and 5000# apples. Yes I have an addiction....it's called mature whitetails. All that money and time, this year I have 5 bucks that I would consider shooting. The pay off for me is time in a stand and watching deer and sometimes even shooting one. That my friends is my therapy that keeps me sane for the next 9 months untill I start all over again.
Morale of the story is gun, bow , or muzzy hunters , we need to stick together and not take away the few rights we still have.
PS still got 6 days left and still have my two deer tags unfilled. If time permits I may even be able to fill my dads disability permit. It's cool sitting in a blind with your gimped up dad.. Easy? Not even close.
Post by: ouchfoss on December 09, 2012, 09:13:11 PM
Post by: csaaphill on December 09, 2012, 09:28:11 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 09, 2012, 09:33:05 PM
Post by: deerslyr on December 09, 2012, 09:43:38 PM
I've heard people say it's unethical to hunt out of a tree stand. So let's make that illegal as well. And while we're at it, I think ground blinds offer an unfair advantqge as well. The deer can't see you while you're in there, and if it rains you don't get wet. That's not fair to the hunters who are doing the real hunting out in the elements!
How about binoculars and spotting scopes? Wow what a huge unfair advantage when you can spot a buck in his bed several miles away when he has no idea your there!
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2012, 09:45:18 PM
I've heard people say it's unethical to hunt out of a tree stand. So let's make that illegal as well. And while we're at it, I think ground blinds offer an unfair advantqge as well. The deer can't see you while you're in there, and if it rains you don't get wet. That's not fair to the hunters who are doing the real hunting out in the elements!
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on December 09, 2012, 09:45:40 PM
I've heard people say it's unethical to hunt out of a tree stand. So let's make that illegal as well. And while we're at it, I think ground blinds offer an unfair advantqge as well. The deer can't see you while you're in there, and if it rains you don't get wet. That's not fair to the hunters who are doing the real hunting out in the elements!
How about binoculars and spotting scopes? Wow what a huge unfair advantage when you can spot a buck in his bed several miles away when he has no idea your there!
Yep, good point! Optics is next on the list of things to be banned.
Oh, and let's not forget GPS and rangefinders. :yike:
Post by: JLS on December 09, 2012, 09:49:24 PM
I've heard people say it's unethical to hunt out of a tree stand. So let's make that illegal as well. And while we're at it, I think ground blinds offer an unfair advantqge as well. The deer can't see you while you're in there, and if it rains you don't get wet. That's not fair to the hunters who are doing the real hunting out in the elements!
How about binoculars and spotting scopes? Wow what a huge unfair advantage when you can spot a buck in his bed several miles away when he has no idea your there!
Yep, good point! Optics is next on the list of things to be banned.
Oh, and let's not forget GPS and rangefinders. :yike:
Are we going to have to walk to our hunting spots too :o
Post by: Bob33 on December 09, 2012, 09:53:33 PM
Post by: csaaphill on December 09, 2012, 09:59:29 PM
didn't mean to jack the thread.
So ya on topic I don't personally bait never really wanted, but I have walked wheat field edges, or other such places. I have come accross apple piles out in the woods. So what's the numbers to the authoer of this thread that want to ban it or who don't you know?
maybe write a wdfw personel or the Local senator or something to keep this legal.
point was that hunters need to stop bickering about things and unite the antis have us beat at that.
Anyone know of or hear any word on if hound hunting will be allowed again or a movement to bring it back exists? or not?
Post by: csaaphill on December 09, 2012, 10:02:21 PM
Thanks for the post, start planting your apple trees now.never ate couger I guess from your smiley on it it tastes ok? then?
I used to think mountain lions were really cool and why would anyone want to kill one, so I decided I would not, not that they should not. However, after trying some steaks, I would definitely shoot one now. :drool:
It is frustrating when hunters won't support other hunters even if they do not use whatever the method is.
Post by: huntnnw on December 09, 2012, 10:18:33 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2012, 10:22:05 PM
most that rip baiting or say its cheating have never done it...they have a broad idea of whats it about and the deer or elk just stroll right into the baits all day long and 180" bucks are a guarantee with baits. The packing of baits,the money involved and time is staggering if your only doing 5 sites and I know some who do far more. I don't understand hunters who would vote to have a hunting right taken away from a user group..be the same as me voting to have dogs taken away for bird hunting cause I don't agree and shame on any of you who are reading this that voted to ban hounds and bear baiting u shouldn't be allowed to hunt anymore
They've been watching too many Texas ranch whitetail hunting shows. :chuckle:
Post by: huntnnw on December 09, 2012, 10:27:25 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 09, 2012, 10:39:21 PM
That's why I try not to leave much there after dark, gets them looking earlier for it. ;)
Never thought of that. But I always would try to bring in enough so I'd only have to re-bait twice a week.
When I use a spin feeder they hear the motor run and they are there in 10 minutes. I used to go just force the feeder at noon and watch the stampede.
especially if it had run dry
A buddy of mine threw some apples off his deck into his yard this year and instantly a doe ran out and started eating it... he started testing it out... they distinctly recognize that sound of an apple hitting the ground and come running... he has only had does do this but it's still pretty entertaining... of course these are town deer so they are basically pets.
Post by: huntnphool on December 09, 2012, 10:44:12 PM
Post by: huntnnw on December 09, 2012, 10:54:47 PM
Post by: csaaphill on December 09, 2012, 11:01:06 PM
Post by: Seabass on December 10, 2012, 11:14:38 AM
My kids have all shot does and now bucks over bait but none of them were mature animals and certainly not wall hangers. However I have two and soon to be three little kids that are turning into white tail psycho's because of it. We only get to hunt a certain number of days each year but baiting and trail camera's give us additional days in the woods together. My kids have grown up in a backpack setting baits and checking cameras. They tell there friends about it all the time like it's there version of video gaming. It is unfortunate that we have to have this discussion every year and it even more discouraging that the fight usually starts amongst ourselves.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 10, 2012, 11:36:39 AM
Post by: Seabass on December 10, 2012, 11:49:20 AM
I am asking this respectfully, have you ever tried baiting a deer or elk?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 10, 2012, 12:02:06 PM
I would strongly support bear baiting too, but I don't think that would be my thing either.
Post by: Seabass on December 10, 2012, 12:21:18 PM
I 100% agree that it isn't difficult to get deer to show up at a bait site and if JUST killing a deer is your goal then I understand why a person would say that the chase isn't fair. However, for may of us, the goal isn't to simply kill a deer or elk. The goal is to kill an exceptional deer or elk. Typically that means an older mature animal. That is never easy regardless of method and I can promise you if baiting made all of these monsters on trail cameras easy to kill we wouldn't be so excited about seeing one dead.
I personally believe baiting makes an old wise buck even more difficult to kill. Maybe easier to see but getting drawn on a mature animal at the time his senses are at their highest is very challenging and sometimes feels impossible. All animals are at their highest level of alertness when feeding regardless of the source. It is when they are the most vulnerable. I think that level goes up even higher when the source of food is unnatural i.e corn pile in the forest.
I have no opinion on elk because I have had very few ever show up.
I appreciate that you are of the thinking that regardless of your opinion you are in support of free choice.
Post by: deerslyr on December 10, 2012, 12:36:00 PM
I've heard people say it's unethical to hunt out of a tree stand. So let's make that illegal as well. And while we're at it, I think ground blinds offer an unfair advantqge as well. The deer can't see you while you're in there, and if it rains you don't get wet. That's not fair to the hunters who are doing the real hunting out in the elements!
How about binoculars and spotting scopes? Wow what a huge unfair advantage when you can spot a buck in his bed several miles away when he has no idea your there!
Yep, good point! Optics is next on the list of things to be banned.
Oh, and let's not forget GPS and rangefinders. :yike:
In all honesty optics behind the right user creates a FAR greater advantage to mule deer and elk hunting than bait does for whitetail hunting. Id say 90% of serious hunters couldnt imagine hunting the west with out quality optics. I think its a very fair comparison as well, especially with the quality of optics out there today. Its not uncommon at all for guys to spot bucks or bulls 1,2 or even 3 miles away and move in on them to make a kill. How is that more fair chase than baiting? For the record, I dont even hunt over bait, I get to antsy sitting in the same spot for that long :chuckle:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 10, 2012, 01:13:22 PM
I too hate the baiting topic because most of the detractors have never had experience with it. Those of us that do it know how much time, effort, and money go into the process. When the season started my partner and I had 1200#'s of corn, 2 giant cedar apple crates (the kind you lift with a forklift) and I don't even know how much alfalfa. It's ALL gone as of yesterday. It all got packed into the woods on our backs, many times after our kids all went to bed and we made the 2 hour drive (one way) to haul it in and drive back home. It is a TON of work and the odds of a mature buck burrying his head in a pile of it during shooting light is slim to none. I honestly have questioned it's effectiveness from time to time.
My kids have all shot does and now bucks over bait but none of them were mature animals and certainly not wall hangers. However I have two and soon to be three little kids that are turning into white tail psycho's because of it. We only get to hunt a certain number of days each year but baiting and trail camera's give us additional days in the woods together. My kids have grown up in a backpack setting baits and checking cameras. They tell there friends about it all the time like it's there version of video gaming. It is unfortunate that we have to have this discussion every year and it even more discouraging that the fight usually starts amongst ourselves.
:yeah:
My daughter has been carried in a backpack since she was a year old while we go on our summer mineral setting/trail cam trips.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 10, 2012, 01:15:59 PM
nah. My wife puts out hay for the deer and elk and I have sat with her while she waited. It was fun watching the deer and elk on the hay pile, for sure, but certainly not what I would consider a fair chase. It's just not my thing- that's all.
I would strongly support bear baiting too, but I don't think that would be my thing either.
Thank you for supporting hunters rights despite the fact they don't mesh with your own personal ideals about what constitutes fair chase.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 10, 2012, 01:44:04 PM
Post by: bearpaw on December 10, 2012, 05:02:18 PM
I would say that many of the hunters doing baits are definitely some of the more dedicated hunters, most hunters do not have the dedication to keep a bait properly stocked. For a long time I resisted baiting with my outfitting business due to all the extra work. We catually have nearly as good of luck by hunting alfalfa and grain fields or watching orchards. But I decided that I want my business to appeal to the largest percentage of hunters, I figured I should offer baited hunts, after all that's how half the hunters in some eastern and southern states hunt.
We have baited in WA for a few years now, I have learned that the biggest advantage with baiting is getting people closer shots and having fewer wounded deer escape. Our shot opportunity really hasn't changed much, but we do a lot less shooting for the same number of deer killed and the number of wounded deer escaping is much lower with bait due to closer shot opportunities.
Another important factor is that Deer who get a little grain go into the winter fatter. Now before someone says that grain isn't natural and it's bad for the deer to eat grain please realize that many deer in this state are getting as much grain out of farmers fields as any deer are getting at any bait site.
The biggest problem baitng faces is that so many hunters will say: "I don't bait so I don't agree with it, it should be illegal."
That's exactly the mentality that is causing so many hunting, fishing, trapping and other every day life practices to be outlawed. :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on December 10, 2012, 05:32:50 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on December 10, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
It just comes down to worry about yourself. If you don't find it ethical, then don't do it. When you try to put your morals and values upon others and force their conduct, the issue arises. More rules, codes, morals...yeah, that's what we need... :rolleyes:
Post by: HornHoarder on December 10, 2012, 05:41:48 PM
Its really a non issue, it was soundly defeated in the meeting...................again!
Good. Glad to hear.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 10, 2012, 07:07:39 PM
While I'm not a fan of baiting it seems this is the current way that most of the young hunters are leaning. If you search any of these topics they all want to know how to get a food plot going or whats the best bait to use. I guess I was taught hunting and woodsman ship instead of sitting over a box of apples waiting.
I also have been known to set out a few feed barrels with game camera's but it is just to let me know whats in the neighbor hood in the way of deer. But then I also plant food plots not to hunt over but to make sure that the Does have a good source of feed for their young. Milk production and antler growth for the bucks.
I may not have "Mastered" the skills but I have refind them and with a bit of effort you can condition deer to them.
Showing up in mid afternoon.
Back when Bear baiting was legal I had a few sites and the bear are also able to condition to the feeder as well.
Perhaps I may still have some of my old barrels stored away in case they ever reverse the laws.
I have a good buddy in Oklahoma and I went on a hog hunt with him we got to the ranch and met the outfitter. We were loaded in a pickup and taken to the blind, got all settled in and the guide asked if we are ready? Yes he get's on the radio and tells them OK. Next thing here comes a truck with a feeder on the hitch throwing corn, tells us to get ready 10 minutes later we have a glut of hog's. Both of us said sorry not for us.
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 12:01:35 AM
now before anyone flames me, just read my entire post as i am torn on the subject.
look, i have hunted over baits in the past and killed some damn fine animals...... im completely guilty of it. i have also had hunts just like matt's wife where i wiffed a shot, grazed the chest, and the buck came right back in though in a heightened state of alertness and i still killed the buck. there is absolutely no question that bait makes hunting easier....... now im not talking physically easier...... anyone that has ever run a bait station for deer, bear or elk knows the work involved......... BUT......... IT SIGNIFICANTLY UPS THE SUCCESS RATE AND IS LESS CHALLENGING FROM A STRATEGIC STANDPOINT. IT ALSO REDUCES SCOUTING TIME INVOLVED TO TRULY PATTERN AN ANIMAL.... ESPECIALLY A MATURE ANIMAL. the amount of driving and time spent behind the glass/scouting/patterning is significantly higher than working your arse off once or twice a week packing in food to a remote area and pulling an SD card.
BAITING IS A MUCH MORE CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT than any food plot, agricultural field, or an apple tree that produces for 3 weeks a year. anyone that says otherwise is lying to themselves. food plots and especially alfalfa fields are typically large enough that many deer can be feeding in it and be well out of bow range....... and well out of gun range for many. many times a mature animal will enter a food plot or alfalfa field seemingly with the wind in his face at all times as i am sure the monsters do to DB's baits that he has so many pics of. a food plot that is small enough to be covered from one end to the other by one archer will typically not be too awful productive simpily because those are usually very specialized plots that are absolutely grown to attract deer, and as such, they get pounded so hard and fast the by deer once the sprouts break the soil's surface that there usually isn't that much to eat and deer may check it out while heading to their main food source..... but they will hit said plot sparingly compared to a corn feeder or bales of hay during the winter....... trust me, i am guilty of having tried to grow food plots just like this.
if a hunter knows what he is doing with putting out his set, baits absolutely focus the deer right to a hunter with a higher success rate of the hunter going undetected unlike food plots that are large enough to be productive or alfalfa fields. apple trees around here are about the only permanent fixture on a property that can attract deer as well as a bait....... but again........ the location of a mature tree can't be manipulated to take advantage of travel patterns, predominant wind direction, thermals ect.
my take on baiting is this...... it is a very effective tool for management. it is great for running trail cams to do buck inventories (do lots of it myself). i think it is valuable in areas where deer/game numbers are above carying capacities. it is great for setting up high percentage shots for new hunters/youth......... BUT.........I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE MICROMANAGED. in big timbered areas i dont see as much of an issue with it. mountain bucks are almost unpatternable for the most part very similar to big woods canadian deer and texas brush deer. on the flip side, i think in agricultural areas with smaller blocks of timber, it should be controlled. for instance, we have several sets of neighbors that have their permanent blinds set up 30 yards from 8-10 bales of hay, beets, apples, and pumpkins. these blinds are for the most part scent free/sealed up and are only used by rifle hunters. in cases like this, it seems more like grocery shopping than hunting as the deer really don't stand a chance...... and beef at the store is a hell of a lot cheaper than what these guys spend on their bait piles and licenses. in areas like this, it creates very shallow age structures where we see many yearlings doing the breeding because EVERYTHING takes a dirt nap.
on top of that, baiting has made it so that guys don't have to scout nearly as much as without bait..... couple that with trail cams flooding the woods over the bait piles and guys won't even sit their stands at times knowing that there is a low percentage that the buck will be in that day and thus they stay out of the woods till he is back (been there done it...... i'm totally guilty and i would not have killed my '07 WA buck the night i did without this exact circumstance).
now don't get me wrong, i love trail cams and own A LOT of them and have the luxury of checking them daily...... but........ i also think Montana has their head on strait when it comes to them as well.
i'm really torn on the baiting subject...... again, i think it definitely has its place but needs to be micromanaged. there is no question that baiting is rampant in our state and i firmly believe it has hurt the overall quality of the herds in many parts of our state. to what extent i am not sure. while there are many topographical and environmental differences, there is a reason why Wisconson and Iowa consistently and more commonly produce true giants with solid age structure in their herds...... and i think we can all agree that the eastern part of our state has the genetic potential. its the management, both public and private, that are holding us back.
on the flip side, i don't think taking baiting completely away is the answer either. there are obviously people that enjoy it just like i used to enjoy the days of baiting bears in our state. so who am i to say that baiting for deer or elk should be completely removed? again, i just think it should be micromanaged.
i guess we just have to ask ourselves the question that is debated almost endlessly....... where do we draw the line so that the hunt remains in hunting?
btw, i know the costs associated with baiting. like some of you here, i also spend TONS of money feeding the deer as i feed them year round.... i don't buy corn by the barrel, i buy it by the ton..... monthly. i also spend tons of money on diesel and seed every year on our crops and large food plots. i also know that each and every evening i walk out into my pasture near my house and pour 80-100lbs of corn for 45 deer on a slow night, to well over 100 in the winter (my daily therapy). i do this every single day of the year...... and nearly every single day, i have mature bucks within 20 feet of me. can post pics tomorrow evening if anyone needs proof. i have done it to the extreme both ways and a conditioned animal is easier to kill than one that is not.
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 12:08:11 AM
lets say that baiting was outlawed or very limited but we were given seasons like most states. hunt from september through december. how many would be willing to give up baiting to be able to have 4 months of uninterupted hunting?
i certainly would...... heck, even 3 months...... just to enjoy all phases of the season from early season patterning, pre-rut, rut, post rut, and back to late season patterning.
sure would beat having to pay more than most people have to pay to hunt the midwest as a nonresident (no joke) if we are drawn for a multiseason tag..... talk about a load of crap that is...... guess thats for a different thread...... the one where we discuss how WASHINGTON IS KNOWN FOR MANAGING ITS HUNTERS INSTEAD OF ITS WILDLIFE.
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 12:31:31 AM
http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/faqs/59/baiting.html (http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/faqs/59/baiting.html)
Post by: buck man on December 12, 2012, 07:04:06 AM
You stated longer seasons like mid west states. Having been and hunted there, I do not think your ideas would work in WA. We do not have the mast crops or topography to produce those bucks. Even if we did we would have to eliminate rifle hunting. That is the reason Iowa has the big bucks. Not anything else. Kansas has a very short rifle season, and I doesn't coincide with the peak of the rut. The closest area with our similar big timber is perhaps Minn. or WI. And of course BC , and Alberta , and others.
We have the genetics in this state to produce some whoppers. Not all of us are fortunate enough to have a large track of land we can micro manage like yourself. That being said I don't begrudge it to you one bit. I applaud it , but your methods you employ on your property would not work in an area like mine with millions of acres of contiguous woods and NO specified food areas for these deer.
I do micromanage my food sources I provide for the deer and utilize my cameras as a scouting tool. I do not have the luxury to sit at a stand for the off chance that a big buck will come through. I hedge my bets with a camera and play the odds. Is it a sure bet absolutely not. Last year I shot a doe on the last day. Could I have shot bucks ? Yes but I used self control and would only harvest mature animals. They were there just not with me there.
I have learned that hunting the baits is not as affective as hunting off of them and shooting deer staging to go into them. Much like I believe you hunt. Just my :twocents: :twocents:
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 09:32:39 AM
Iowa has many more reasons than just gun hunting as to the why of their deer crop........ first and foremost........ a DNR that puts the quality of their deer herds before the all mighty dollar (the almighty dollar now comes as a result of their efforts). wide spread QDM is a close second.
when i was talking about micromanaging, i meant by the state and employing guidelines as to where baiting could be used (example: using GMUs that are open to baiting....... though i think there would have to be guidelines within individual GMUs or general rules outside of GMUs) . like i said...... big timber hunting is a different animal. one of the farms i grew up on and still hunt butts up to some serious ground. i have bait hunted mountain bucks and fully understand their habits........ or lack habits. some of those deer will never show themselves in low lands in all but the harshest of winters....... and even then some still will not. having said that. many of the mountain bucks will still have a core area....... DBs pics from year to year as well as some of the pics and sheds i have from deep timber bucks are proof of that.
whats amazing is watching the deer on one of the farms i hunt that butts up hundreds of thousands of acres. from july through september i could glass deer doing their normal daily summer grind up to about 5-8 years ago (prior to rampant baiting). these days they do the same thing up till about 2 weeks prior to the season (when all the corn piles have been set out) suddenly it becomes a ghost town and i mean it literally happens over night....... mature bucks have almost disappeared on this farm these days as well because of vastly more deer being taken anually....... it really has to be seen to be believed. it is really sad.
your last bit about taking a doe is really what sets many areas of the midwest apart from WA and that is QDM. I also will be putting my tag on a doe this year on the last day simply because i have no 5 year old or older deer on my place nor at the other 3 farms that i hunt. Unfortunately, very few people do use the kind of restraint that you and i do in not taking younger bucks.
again, what i am getting at is that everyone has their own opinion on many facets of hunting......... who am i to say that because i haven't hunted big game with a firearm since i was a sophomore in high school that rifle season should be shorter? yes i would like that but i have many people that i care about that would be devastated if that were the case. Same goes with baiting deer and elk. guys such as yourself obviously enjoy it and who's to say that i am right and you are wrong..... same could be said of QDM....... the list goes on and on.
i think the main argument in baiting is that it makes it easier......... in many cases more of a shoot than a hunt (this is where i think regulations could be valuable). makes it easier, ups the odds, increases success....... its all semantics. bottom line is baiting increases the odds. in some cases it renders hunting to shooting...... in others it may only provide a single glimpse of a mountain monarch in a season....... but, in general...... the way it is primarily practiced in our state....... it significantly ups the odds. i don't think anyone can honestly deny that.
I do not have the luxury to sit at a stand for the off chance that a big buck will come through. I hedge my bets with a camera and play the odds.
sure you could...... how did you do it prior to trail cams? ;)
Post by: Seabass on December 12, 2012, 10:07:28 AM
I believed in it enoughto actually start a local branch of the QDMA a few years ago. Most of you are probably unaware htere ever was one. In fact if you go to the QDMA website you will see that it still lists the branch ( Inland NW Branch) as active and myself (Josh Potter) as the president. The branch is not active.Our branch died a slow death becuase there simply weren't enough people that believed it would work or more likely had the discipline to wait long enough for it to work. I had a lot of energy for this back then and thought that if we could educate enough hunters that they would come around to that way of thinking. I was wrong!
I still believe in it and still practice it myself. I encourage everyone around me to consider a few ideas every year. I hunt predominantly public land and still believe that our herds can improve one hunter at a time. The 2 main principles of QDM are the adequate harvest of does and the age of buck harvest. There is a distinct difference in QDM and trophy deer management. Trophy deer management is very expensive and time consuming. IF you read the book Quality Whitetails you will see these 2 principles as the real keys to the whole deal. The other things like nutrition and genetics are the things that most want to focus on but the fact is adequate doe harvest and allowing bucks to reach 3 1/2 years of age prior to harvest is the crux of the whole deal.
After spending 3 solid years interacting with the hunting community in my area I came to the conclusion that the main reason any kind of QDM is so difficult is the fact that 90% of our hunting takes place on public ground and that has an impact on a hunter's attitude. Every time I ask a hunter why he killed a young buck his response is, "if I don't somone else will". That is why I supported and fought for the antler point restrictions. Despite the fact that I understand antler points don't equate to age I thought it would help some young deer escape. This is the problem when people stay ignorant. They get handed rules because you can't legislate education but you can always make a rule.
I don't think baiting would be as big of an issue as it pertains to harvest (besides the moral dilema) if more people would show some restraint on pulling the trigger. Most people on here believe putting hunting pressure on the older age class in bad. They are totally wrong if you only kill mature bucks then next year ther is a brand new crop of mature bucks. The age structure can stay more constant and I argue more healthy. There are a ton of other issues that we will never all agree on and I don't pretend to be a bilogist but I am educated on the principles of QDM and believe they work.
Post by: Seabass on December 12, 2012, 10:14:56 AM
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 10:18:42 AM
Post by: Annette on December 12, 2012, 10:26:58 AM
My ancestors have used every tool to harvest an animal, even bait. Why bring in disease bearing wolves into our state then turn around and act like they realy care about our deer herds? We have one tag....if we can fill it we'll buy another tag next year. If not we'll turn to hunting another state...simple math. >:(
Post by: Seabass on December 12, 2012, 10:28:14 AM
Despite the the fact that we failed to stay alive I never regret a penny of that money because I learned a lot and a few people came around. The department thinks the whole thing is a joke and that made it even more difficult to succeed.
I don't expect every hunter to have the same level of passion or dedication that some of you guys obviously have. I just wish all hunters would put a tiny little bit more thought into deer rather than just deer hunting. That's all
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 12, 2012, 01:33:45 PM
Bart
Post by: Seabass on December 12, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
Post by: Elkstuffer on December 12, 2012, 02:13:04 PM
That being said I've baited up in the NE corner of our state for the last 4 seasons. I've averaged the 5 hour drive at least 3-4 times before the season begins. Spend a lot of money on fuel and bait and have yet to kill a trophy buck. The first 3 years I could have taken an immature buck and chose not to. And this year I hit it wrong and saw 2 does total. It is not easy and it sure as heck isn't a slam dunk.
People need to get of there holier than thou high moral horse and realize that we as hunters are all in this fight together. If you don't agree with a certain type of hunting then don't do it. There are lots of different hunting practices that are perfectly legal. I don't agree with all of them but i sure as hell aren't going to fight other hunters about them. I don't agree with shooting an animal at 800+ yrds. Too many things can go wrong resulting in a wounded and not recovered animal. I have friends that do. It's legal. I just choose not to hunt that way.
If we don't ban together we're going to loose more than just baiting rights. We'll loose our HUNTING rights! :twocents:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 12, 2012, 04:05:28 PM
DB, you know how i feel about this subject....... bottom line is, it makes it easier no question about it...... to what extent i think depends on the area..... but it does make it easier all things equal. for instance, look at matt alwines wife's hunt here in WA when she was pregnant on trophy state of mind. that was a 4 year old deer that had 3 arrows flung at it and it still came back. try that near an alfalfa field or food plot and lets see if the outcome is the same.
now before anyone flames me, just read my entire post as i am torn on the subject.
GJ.. You said "try that near an alfalfa field or food plot and lets see if the outcome is the same". I actually have quite the collection of deer hunting videos. I have seen similar scenarios like this happen numerous time on hunts from Iowa, Kansas, Montana etc. None of them are over bait. Some of them are in CRP, along active trails, in food plots etc. In fact some of them are even shot at with a rifle two or three times and they just run around in a circle out in the field and start feeding again. The reason these deer don't run away and not come back is usually due to lack of pressure in that area so the threat does not seem that great. In other regions of the country (SE Arkansas being a good example) the deer will be out of there at almost any unnatural sound...regardless of the bait. So yes... the outcome very well could be the same and has more to do with the lower pressure we experience than the actual bait itself.
look, i have hunted over baits in the past and killed some damn fine animals...... im completely guilty of it. i have also had hunts just like matt's wife where i wiffed a shot, grazed the chest, and the buck came right back in though in a heightened state of alertness and i still killed the buck. there is absolutely no question that bait makes hunting easier....... now im not talking physically easier...... anyone that has ever run a bait station for deer, bear or elk knows the work involved......... BUT......... IT SIGNIFICANTLY UPS THE SUCCESS RATE AND IS LESS CHALLENGING FROM A STRATEGIC STANDPOINT. IT ALSO REDUCES SCOUTING TIME INVOLVED TO TRULY PATTERN AN ANIMAL.... ESPECIALLY A MATURE ANIMAL.
The strategy may be "different" but after hunting mature bucks with and without bait I haven't found it to be strategically less challenging. You must be hunting different mature bucks than I do over bait. I can tell you this. To be consistent year after year on mature bucks on bait there is still plenty strategy that is necessary. If it wasn't then I would be killing 170-200 gross bucks every single year (as my trailcams show). The problem is my strategy fails more often than not... even though I try to consider all the things you mention below... predominant winds, thermals, etc.
the amount of driving and time spent behind the glass/scouting/patterning is significantly higher than working your arse off once or twice a week packing in food to a remote area and pulling an SD card.
Again.. I have not found this to be a fact. I spend far more time in the field since I started baiting.. I would agree that this may not be the case for the majority.. but for me I have found it requires far more time with boots on ground and driving. When I am scouting like you are talking about above I am usually only keeping track of one or two animals... that is much easier to do than trying to keep track of a half dozen or more.
BAITING IS A MUCH MORE CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT than any food plot, agricultural field, or an apple tree that produces for 3 weeks a year. anyone that says otherwise is lying to themselves. food plots and especially alfalfa fields are typically large enough that many deer can be feeding in it and be well out of bow range....... and well out of gun range for many. many times a mature animal will enter a food plot or alfalfa field seemingly with the wind in his face at all times as i am sure the monsters do to DB's baits that he has so many pics of. a food plot that is small enough to be covered from one end to the other by one archer will typically not be too awful productive simpily because those are usually very specialized plots that are absolutely grown to attract deer, and as such, they get pounded so hard and fast the by deer once the sprouts break the soil's surface that there usually isn't that much to eat and deer may check it out while heading to their main food source..... but they will hit said plot sparingly compared to a corn feeder or bales of hay during the winter....... trust me, i am guilty of having tried to grow food plots just like this.
Certainly it is much easier to manipulate the location of the food source to increase the advantage in your favor. But it's far from shooting fish in a barrel and I have yet to see it take the "hunt" out of hunting. That being said... I am sure every serious whitetail hunter here would gladly give up baiting for exclusive access to 1,000 or more acres and sufficient funds to manage and grow big deer however they pleased.
if a hunter knows what he is doing with putting out his set, baits absolutely focus the deer right to a hunter with a higher success rate of the hunter going undetected unlike food plots that are large enough to be productive or alfalfa fields. apple trees around here are about the only permanent fixture on a property that can attract deer as well as a bait....... but again........ the location of a mature tree can't be manipulated to take advantage of travel patterns, predominant wind direction, thermals ect.Look how many Days Bill Winke hunted that 190-200 this year over the same location. Look at how he hit it last year and missed it a couple times on the same field over the last few years. The buck kept coming back to the same general locations. It was basically only a matter of time until the conditions were just right that Bill was going to get a shot at that deer. Aside from poachers or a natural death there was very little that could go wrong unless he overpressured it.. That being said.. the nature of that field allowed him to hunt it day after day for quite some time... Try doing that with a bait in the big woods... No matter how careful you are the odds are you are going to see a serious drop in activity if you hunt that stand as much as Bill was hunting his area. Not to mention Bill was constantly spooking deer out of that field.. yet the next evening there they were again..... you do that a couple of times in the big woods and you probably won't even see the does.
my take on baiting is this...... it is a very effective tool for management. it is great for running trail cams to do buck inventories (do lots of it myself). i think it is valuable in areas where deer/game numbers are above carying capacities. it is great for setting up high percentage shots for new hunters/youth......... BUT.........I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE MICROMANAGED. in big timbered areas i dont see as much of an issue with it. mountain bucks are almost unpatternable for the most part very similar to big woods canadian deer and texas brush deer. on the flip side, i think in agricultural areas with smaller blocks of timber, it should be controlled. for instance, we have several sets of neighbors that have their permanent blinds set up 30 yards from 8-10 bales of hay, beets, apples, and pumpkins. these blinds are for the most part scent free/sealed up and are only used by rifle hunters. in cases like this, it seems more like grocery shopping than hunting as the deer really don't stand a chance...... and beef at the store is a hell of a lot cheaper than what these guys spend on their bait piles and licenses. in areas like this, it creates very shallow age structures where we see many yearlings doing the breeding because EVERYTHING takes a dirt nap.What I am starting to gather is that you personally (while not necessarily being against baiting) have a big conflict of interest with it. Baiting allows guys who do not have your means to knock on your neighbors door and get permission hunt 20 or 30 acres that the deer may rarely travel through (which would make a lot of scouting almost pointless for the guy unless he could gain access to more land ). He is then able to put out his version of your "food plot" by setting out bait and he is then able to draw some of "your" deer over to that property and kill them... It's no secret that providing everything a deer needs is a large landowners best bet in keeping deer on the property. The more resources you provide to meet that deers needs the less often they will leave it. Often in these situation the bucks core areas even shrink because they don't need to travel very far to meet their needs. As you know Iowa doesn't allow hunting over bait and guys with means like Lee Lakosky have perfected this. He even talks about it in his book. I am sure Lee wouldn't like it much if baiting was allowed there either considering all the effort and money he puts into those food plots. In the late season particularly he is able to draw deer in from miles around...and he has even admitted...some of them end up staying.
If I was a large landowner with money to spend on food plots I wouldn't like baiting in "small woodlot/agricultural" areas either. I would love it if the food I was providing the deer was the most nutritious food available. It's obvious what the results would be. Believe me...that would be a dream come true. In fact.. I may actually move to Iowa one day for that very reason..... but I still will not support any bans on baiting and would even push to legalize it.
Tell you what GJ the day you commit to not growing any food sources of any kind that deer favor and I will support a full out baiting ban. (I know your not pushing for a baiting ban.. just making that statement more for effect to try and solidify my point.)
on top of that, baiting has made it so that guys don't have to scout nearly as much as without bait..... couple that with trail cams flooding the woods over the bait piles and guys won't even sit their stands at times knowing that there is a low percentage that the buck will be in that day and thus they stay out of the woods till he is back (been there done it...... i'm totally guilty and i would not have killed my '07 WA buck the night i did without this exact circumstance).
I spend more time scouting and more time in stand as a result of baiting and trail cameras so I can't completely relate to this.
now don't get me wrong, i love trail cams and own A LOT of them and have the luxury of checking them daily...... but........ i also think Montana has their head on strait when it comes to them as well.
Yes.. if you have own a nice agricultural field/CRP etc where you can openly and easily glass deer from a distance (like they do in the midwest) going without a trail camera would be just fine. Trail cameras are certainly an amazing scouting tool for the big woods... and they are a lot of fun. You mention therapy below... trail cams are part of my therapy.... but I can tell you this..even it was possible there is now way I could check my cameras daily in the areas I hunt and expect mature bucks to ever appear in front of them in daylight. I don't think the buck I hunt recieve much more hunting pressure than the bucks on your land (they may even recieve less). But I do believe the higher degree of predator threats in the mountains make those bucks much more wary than the deer living in agricultural and suburban areas of this state.
i'm really torn on the baiting subject...... again, i think it definitely has its place but needs to be micromanaged. there is no question that baiting is rampant in our state and i firmly believe it has hurt the overall quality of the herds in many parts of our state. to what extent i am not sure. while there are many topographical and environmental differences, there is a reason why Wisconson and Iowa consistently and more commonly produce true giants with solid age structure in their herds...... and i think we can all agree that the eastern part of our state has the genetic potential. its the management, both public and private, that are holding us back.
Wisconsin was producing plenty of big deer when baiting was allowed. I will agree that baiting is far more prevalent than I have ever seen it in this state. 15 years ago most people I spoke to thought baiting was illegal in this state. I can tell you the big woods I hunt has outstanding age structure and buck to doe ratios. I believe it's very close to 1:1 and sometimes it even seems there are more bucks than does. I do believe the mixed woods/agricultural areas certainly have skewed buck/doe ratios.
on the flip side, i don't think taking baiting completely away is the answer either. there are obviously people that enjoy it just like i used to enjoy the days of baiting bears in our state. so who am i to say that baiting for deer or elk should be completely removed? again, i just think it should be micromanaged.
i guess we just have to ask ourselves the question that is debated almost endlessly....... where do we draw the line so that the hunt remains in hunting?
I'm not sure where we draw the line but the fact that the largest majority of people don't fill their tag in this state suggests that there is still plenty of "hunt" left in "hunting" under our current rules.
btw, i know the costs associated with baiting. like some of you here, i also spend TONS of money feeding the deer as i feed them year round.... i don't buy corn by the barrel, i buy it by the ton..... monthly. i also spend tons of money on diesel and seed every year on our crops and large food plots. i also know that each and every evening i walk out into my pasture near my house and pour 80-100lbs of corn for 45 deer on a slow night, to well over 100 in the winter (my daily therapy). i do this every single day of the year...... and nearly every single day, i have mature bucks within 20 feet of me. can post pics tomorrow evening if anyone needs proof. i have done it to the extreme both ways and a conditioned animal is easier to kill than one that is not.
I can understand how this is your therapy just like running these baits and trail cameras is mine... (and many others).... I do believe you have conditioned your bucks to where they let you get within 20 feet. I have a friend who has deer on his property that are basically pets and they will certainly let you get that close. However, I do highly doubt you would be able to "condition" a mature big woods mountain buck to the point that he will let you walk within 20 feet of him...no matter how much bait you use.
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 05:54:25 PM
Post by: Seabass on December 12, 2012, 05:59:59 PM
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 06:04:38 PM
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 12, 2012, 06:26:12 PM
DB- i could take a bunch of time and go back and debate all your points but i'm not going to. neither one of us will ever see eye to eye on that and i'm ok with that. u started a thread and i gave my opinion. just one question....... all things equal, do you believe that baiting significantly ups the odds of success?
I'm ok with it too brother. :brew:
All things being equal there is no doubt baiting ups overall success in the state. But my point is that success would be no worse if baiting wasn't allowed and everyone had exclusive access too 1K acres and could plant food plots etc. (and in that respect it wouldn't matter whether we were talking just overall harvest or big bucks) Baiting certainly gives an edge... just like shooting a rifle gives an edge...and just like having food plots give an edge... but baiting is far from creating any kind of huge advantage in killing a big buck. :twocents:
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 07:30:44 PM
But my point is that success would be no worse if baiting wasn't allowed and everyone had exclusive access too 1K acres and could plant food plots etc. (and in that respect it wouldn't matter whether we were talking just overall harvest or big bucks) Baiting certainly gives an edge... just like shooting a rifle gives an edge...and just like having food plots give an edge... but baiting is far from creating any kind of huge advantage in killing a big buck. :twocents:
then we will agree to disagree. ;)
btw, you get that buck yet that was closer to home or you still chasing those BIG boys?
Post by: colockumelk on December 12, 2012, 07:38:25 PM
Post by: buck man on December 12, 2012, 07:52:33 PM
Since I havnt debated DB for a long time, and for that reason alone I am going to say hunting over bait is unfair and should be made illegal. 8)
:yike: :yike: :yike: :bdid:
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 12, 2012, 08:25:25 PM
But my point is that success would be no worse if baiting wasn't allowed and everyone had exclusive access too 1K acres and could plant food plots etc. (and in that respect it wouldn't matter whether we were talking just overall harvest or big bucks) Baiting certainly gives an edge... just like shooting a rifle gives an edge...and just like having food plots give an edge... but baiting is far from creating any kind of huge advantage in killing a big buck. :twocents:
then we will agree to disagree. ;)
btw, you get that buck yet that was closer to home or you still chasing those BIG boys?
We can do that. :chuckle: I know we disagree from each of our own personal experiences. My experience is that I have seen absolutely no rise in my success rate on killing mature animals from baiting. However, my success rate of finding mature animals has increased exponentially as a result of baiting and cameras.
I just finished working for the week. I checked some of my cams tonight. It looks like there is very little daylight activity on any of them and all mature buck movement past my cams has been at night.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 12, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
Since I havnt debated DB for a long time, and for that reason alone I am going to say hunting over bait is unfair and should be made illegal. 8)
:chuckle:
Post by: gjbruny on December 12, 2012, 08:43:17 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe266%2Fgjbruny%2Fmonster5.png&hash=256f7aa32426f751408c9f14d7c282a0ba71a76f)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe266%2Fgjbruny%2FHAWTHRORNE.jpg&hash=e3d5797f812abaa66d0dec27f9d622c8cf0208a0)
i forgot to load the links to the pics the first time around..... kind of loses its bite now. :'( :chuckle:
maybe not for you but baiting upped the odds for another lucky fellow on this mountain buck that you are all too familiar with. ;) they are deer, they are not untouchable regardless of where they live.
Post by: DBHAWTHORNE on December 12, 2012, 09:07:31 PM
crap....... my previous post was supposed to read........ we will have to agree to disagree followed by this series of pics.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe266%2Fgjbruny%2Fmonster5.png&hash=256f7aa32426f751408c9f14d7c282a0ba71a76f)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe266%2Fgjbruny%2FHAWTHRORNE.jpg&hash=e3d5797f812abaa66d0dec27f9d622c8cf0208a0)
i forgot to load the links to the pics the first time around..... kind of loses its bite now. :'( :chuckle:
maybe not for you but baiting upped the odds for another lucky fellow on this mountain buck that you are all too familiar with. ;) they are deer, they are not untouchable regardless of where they live.
:chuckle: The buck was nearly three miles outside of his core area... I can assure you it wasn't for bait.
Post by: steen on December 12, 2012, 09:47:51 PM
Post by: huntnnw on December 12, 2012, 11:35:20 PM
I don't condone anyone from baiting at all. I have personally never hunted over bait and may not until I can't t hunt without it. I don't consider hunting over an alfalfa field a farmer planted to harvest baiting either nor orchards but food plots are baiting to me if they r specifically planted for hunting deer. Just not my preferred method. I may get to the point where it may be necessary to do so as well as using ATVs. Now there is another topic! Just my :twocents:
Really? have u hunted whitetails? I have hunted many of alfalfa fields over the years and apple orchards and that's not baiting because of the particular use of it?? :dunno: I ll tell u right now its the easiest way to hunt whitetails in Sept...I can just glass fields in August make mental notes of where the deer enter the fields and hang a stand its simple and I have passed 100's of bucks doing this its almost to easy to get just a buck, getting the pig to walk by in daylight sometimes is another story. Just this year I hunted the early and late over a 10 tree orchard...Dec 2nd they were still pounding the trees
Post by: Steve Jo on December 15, 2012, 11:06:18 AM
My opinion is that Game Cameras offer more of an edge than Baiting, but that's just splitting hairs.
The truth of the matter is that we all make personal choices to use what aids we feel are necessary to meet our personal definition of success. That can be Bait, optics, centerfire rifle, treestands, compounds, scents, trail cameras et all. and we will justify our position because it fits for us.
I think regardless of your neighbors hunting decisions, it's really best not to judge.
Post by: lokidog on December 15, 2012, 05:58:37 PM
pretty good topic.
My opinion is that Game Cameras offer more of an edge than Baiting, but that's just splitting hairs.
The truth of the matter is that we all make personal choices to use what aids we feel are necessary to meet our personal definition of success. That can be Bait, optics, centerfire rifle, treestands, compounds, scents, trail cameras et all. and we will justify our position because it fits for us.
I think regardless of your neighbors hunting decisions, it's really best not to judge.
:tup:
Post by: stuckalot on December 15, 2012, 09:48:04 PM
and I didn't speak out because I was not a hound hunter...
Then they came for the baiters,
and I didn't speak out because I didn't hunt over bait...
Then they came for the bow hunters,
and I didn't speak out because I was not a bow hunter...
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me...
Post by: huntnnw on December 16, 2012, 10:26:00 PM
pretty good topic.:yeah:
My opinion is that Game Cameras offer more of an edge than Baiting, but that's just splitting hairs.
The truth of the matter is that we all make personal choices to use what aids we feel are necessary to meet our personal definition of success. That can be Bait, optics, centerfire rifle, treestands, compounds, scents, trail cameras et all. and we will justify our position because it fits for us.
I think regardless of your neighbors hunting decisions, it's really best not to judge.
we all have ways we like to hunt and what we consider hunting and hunters need to quit arguing over what method they think constitutes as hunting and stick together to quit having our rights lost 1 by 1
Post by: RB on December 16, 2012, 10:29:12 PM
pretty good topic.:yeah:
My opinion is that Game Cameras offer more of an edge than Baiting, but that's just splitting hairs.
The truth of the matter is that we all make personal choices to use what aids we feel are necessary to meet our personal definition of success. That can be Bait, optics, centerfire rifle, treestands, compounds, scents, trail cameras et all. and we will justify our position because it fits for us.
I think regardless of your neighbors hunting decisions, it's really best not to judge.
we all have ways we like to hunt and what we consider hunting and hunters need to quit arguing over what method they think constitutes as hunting and stick together to quit having our rights lost 1 by 1
Amen :yeah:
Post by: grundy53 on December 17, 2012, 05:08:34 AM
I don't condone anyone from baiting at all. I have personally never hunted over bait and may not until I can't t hunt without it. I don't consider hunting over an alfalfa field a farmer planted to harvest baiting either nor orchards but food plots are baiting to me if they r specifically planted for hunting deer. Just not my prefered method. I may get to the point where it may be necessary to do so as well as using ATVs. Now there is another topic! Just my :twocents:
How can you not condone a hunting method that you have never tried?