GMAC to discuss deer/elk baiting in the future.

[HornHoarder]

Its really a non issue, it was soundly defeated in the meeting...................again!

Good. Glad to hear.

[Ridgeratt]

I'm sort of torn on this debate.
While I'm not a fan of baiting it seems this is the current way that most of the young hunters are leaning. If you search any of these topics they all want to know how to get a food plot going or whats the best bait to use. I guess I was taught hunting and woodsman ship instead of sitting over a box of apples waiting.


I also have been known to set out a few feed barrels with game camera's but it is just to let me know whats in the neighbor hood in the way of deer. But then I also plant food plots not to hunt over but to make sure that the Does have a good source of feed for their young. Milk production and antler growth for the bucks.


I may not have "Mastered" the skills but I have refind them and with a bit of effort you can condition deer to them.
Showing up in mid afternoon.

Back when Bear baiting was legal I had a few sites and the bear are also able to condition to the feeder as well.
Perhaps I may still have some of my old barrels stored away in case they ever reverse the laws.


I have a good buddy in Oklahoma and I went on a hog hunt with him we got to the ranch and met the outfitter. We were loaded in a pickup and taken to the blind, got all settled in and the guide asked if we are ready? Yes he get's on the radio and tells them OK. Next thing here comes a truck with a feeder on the hitch throwing corn, tells us to get ready 10 minutes later we have a glut of hog's. Both of us said sorry not for us.

[gjbruny]

DB, you know how i feel about this subject....... bottom line is, it makes it easier no question about it...... to what extent i think depends on the area..... but it does make it easier all things equal. for instance, look at matt alwines wife's hunt here in WA when she was pregnant on trophy state of mind. that was a 4 year old deer that had 3 arrows flung at it and it still came back. try that near an alfalfa field or food plot and lets see if the outcome is the same.

now before anyone flames me, just read my entire post as i am torn on the subject.

look, i have hunted over baits in the past and killed some damn fine animals...... im completely guilty of it. i have also had hunts just like matt's wife where i wiffed a shot, grazed the chest, and the buck came right back in though in a heightened state of alertness and i still killed the buck. there is absolutely no question that bait makes hunting easier....... now im not talking physically easier...... anyone that has ever run a bait station for deer, bear or elk knows the work involved......... BUT......... IT SIGNIFICANTLY UPS THE SUCCESS RATE AND IS LESS CHALLENGING FROM A STRATEGIC STANDPOINT. IT ALSO REDUCES SCOUTING TIME INVOLVED TO TRULY PATTERN AN ANIMAL.... ESPECIALLY A MATURE ANIMAL. the amount of driving and time spent behind the glass/scouting/patterning is significantly higher than working your arse off once or twice a week packing in food to a remote area and pulling an SD card.

 BAITING IS A MUCH MORE CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT than any food plot, agricultural field, or an apple tree that produces for 3 weeks a year. anyone that says otherwise is lying to themselves. food plots and especially alfalfa fields are typically large enough that many deer can be feeding in it and be well out of bow range....... and well out of gun range for many. many times a mature animal will enter a food plot or alfalfa field  seemingly with the wind in his face at all times as i am sure the monsters do to DB's baits that he has so many pics of. a food plot that is small enough to be covered from one end to the other by one archer will typically not be too awful productive simpily because those are usually very specialized plots that are absolutely grown to attract deer, and as such, they get pounded so hard and fast the by deer once the sprouts break the soil's surface that there usually isn't that much to eat and deer may check it out while heading to their main food source..... but they will hit said plot  sparingly compared to a corn feeder or bales of hay during the winter....... trust me, i am guilty of having tried to grow food plots just like this.

 if a hunter knows what he is doing with putting out his set, baits absolutely focus the deer right to a hunter with a higher success rate of the hunter going undetected  unlike food plots that are large enough to be productive or alfalfa fields. apple trees around here are about the only permanent fixture on a property that can attract deer as well as a bait....... but again........ the location of a mature tree can't be manipulated to take advantage of travel patterns, predominant wind direction, thermals ect.

my take on baiting is this...... it is a very effective tool for management. it is great for running trail cams to do buck inventories (do lots of it myself). i think it is valuable in areas where deer/game numbers are above carying capacities. it is great for setting up high percentage shots for new hunters/youth......... BUT.........I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE MICROMANAGED. in big timbered areas i dont see as much of an issue with it. mountain bucks are almost unpatternable for the most part very similar to big woods canadian deer and texas brush deer. on the flip side, i think in agricultural areas with smaller blocks of timber, it should be controlled. for instance, we have several sets of neighbors that have their permanent blinds set up 30 yards from 8-10 bales of hay, beets, apples, and pumpkins. these blinds are for the most part scent free/sealed up and are only used by rifle hunters. in cases like this, it seems more like grocery shopping than hunting as the deer really don't stand a chance...... and beef at the store is a hell of a lot cheaper than what these guys spend on their bait piles and licenses. in areas like this, it creates very shallow age structures where we see many yearlings doing the breeding because EVERYTHING takes a dirt nap.

on top of that, baiting has made it so that guys don't have to scout nearly as much as without bait..... couple that with trail cams flooding the woods over the bait piles and guys won't even sit their stands at times knowing that there is a low percentage that the buck will be in that day and thus they stay out of the woods till he is back (been there done it...... i'm totally guilty and i would not have killed my '07 WA buck the night i did without this exact circumstance).

now don't get me wrong, i love trail cams and own A LOT of them and have the luxury of checking them daily...... but........ i also think Montana has their head on strait when it comes to them as well.

i'm really torn on the baiting subject...... again, i think it definitely has its place but needs to be micromanaged. there is no question that baiting is rampant in our state and i firmly believe it has hurt the overall quality of the herds in many parts of our state. to what extent i am not sure. while there are many topographical and environmental differences, there is a reason why Wisconson and Iowa consistently and more commonly produce true giants with solid age structure in their herds...... and i think we can all agree that the eastern part of our state has the genetic potential. its the management, both public and private, that are holding us back.

on the flip side, i don't think taking baiting completely away is the answer either. there are obviously people that enjoy it just like i used to enjoy the days of baiting bears in our state. so who am i to say that baiting for deer or elk should be completely removed? again, i just think it should be micromanaged.

i guess we just have to ask ourselves the question that is debated almost endlessly....... where do we draw the line so that the hunt remains in hunting?

btw, i know the costs associated with baiting. like some of you here, i also spend TONS of money feeding the deer as i feed them year round.... i don't buy corn by the barrel, i buy it by the ton..... monthly. i also spend tons of money on diesel and seed every year on our crops and large food plots. i also know that each and every evening i walk out into my pasture near my house and pour 80-100lbs of corn for 45 deer on a slow night, to well over 100 in the winter (my daily therapy). i do this every single day of the year...... and nearly every single day, i have mature bucks within 20 feet of me. can post pics tomorrow evening if anyone needs proof.  i have done it to the extreme both ways and a conditioned animal is easier to kill than one that is not.

[gjbruny]

now how many would be up for this?

lets say that baiting was outlawed or very limited but we were given seasons like most states. hunt from september through december. how many would be willing to give up baiting to be able to have 4 months of uninterupted hunting?

i certainly would...... heck, even 3 months...... just to enjoy all phases of the season from early season patterning, pre-rut, rut, post rut, and back to late season patterning.


sure would beat having to pay more than most people have to pay to hunt the midwest as a nonresident (no joke) if we are drawn for a multiseason tag..... talk about a load of crap that is...... guess thats for a different thread...... the one where we discuss how WASHINGTON IS KNOWN FOR MANAGING ITS HUNTERS INSTEAD OF ITS WILDLIFE.

[gjbruny]

some good thoughts on the subject here;

http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/faqs/59/baiting.html

[buck man]

I believe there may be a little truth to some of what you have said. Some areas with small blocks of timber can and are over baited. Areas like yours and other areas of SE wa and even north of Deer park. I know that areas around Cheney likewise get pounded. Like you stated though big timber bucks don't get the same pressure. Most people only put baits within a half mile of a road. Very few of use will load up the horses and go in deep. These deer like you know are unpressured and fun to hunt..

You stated longer seasons like mid west states. Having been and hunted there, I do not think your ideas would work in WA. We do not have the mast crops or topography to produce those bucks. Even if we did we would have to eliminate rifle hunting. That is the reason Iowa has the big bucks. Not anything else. Kansas has a very short rifle season, and I doesn't coincide with the peak of the rut. The closest area with our similar big timber is perhaps Minn. or WI. And of course BC , and Alberta , and others.

We have the  genetics in this state to produce some whoppers. Not all of us are fortunate enough to have a large track of land we can micro manage like yourself. That being said I don't begrudge it to you one bit. I applaud it , but your methods you employ on your property would not work in an area like mine with millions of acres of contiguous woods and NO specified food areas for these deer.

I do micromanage my food sources I provide for the deer and utilize my cameras as a scouting tool. I do not have the luxury to sit at a stand for the off chance that a big buck will come through. I hedge my bets with a camera and play the odds. Is it a sure bet absolutely not. Last year I shot a doe on the last day. Could I have shot bucks ? Yes but I used self control and would only harvest mature animals. They were there just not with me there.

I have learned that hunting the baits is not as affective as hunting off of them and shooting deer staging to go into them. Much like I believe you hunt. Just my 

[gjbruny]

buckman- i figured you would be quick to respond.   yeah, long seasons would no doubt have to have severely limited firearm seasons...... many of my family and friends are die-hard gun hunters and i certainly would not want to see them lose more time in the field than they already have. though from a selfish standpoint...... i would love to have long seasons. was just posing a hypothetical question as to how many people would give up baiting to have big blocks of time to spend in the field and not feel so rushed like so many do with our short seasons.

Iowa has many more reasons than just gun hunting as to the why of their deer crop........ first and foremost........ a DNR that puts the quality of their deer herds before the all mighty dollar (the almighty dollar now comes as a result of their efforts). wide spread QDM is a close second.

when i was talking about micromanaging, i meant by the state and employing guidelines as to where baiting could be used (example: using GMUs that are open to baiting....... though i think there would have to be guidelines within individual GMUs or general rules outside of GMUs) . like i said...... big timber hunting is a different animal. one of the farms i grew up on and still hunt butts up to some serious ground. i have bait hunted mountain bucks and fully understand their habits........ or lack habits. some of those deer will never show themselves in low lands in all but the harshest of winters....... and even then some still will not. having said that. many of the mountain bucks will still have a core area....... DBs pics from year to year as well as some of the pics and sheds i have from deep timber bucks are proof of that.

whats amazing is watching the deer on one of the farms i hunt that butts up hundreds of thousands of acres. from july through september i could glass deer doing their normal daily summer grind up to about 5-8 years ago (prior to rampant baiting). these days they do the same thing up till about 2 weeks prior to the season (when all the corn piles have been set out) suddenly it becomes a ghost town and i mean it literally happens over night....... mature bucks have almost disappeared on this farm these days as well because of vastly more deer being taken anually....... it really has to be seen to be believed. it is really sad.

your last bit about taking a doe is really what sets many areas of the midwest apart from WA and that is QDM. I also will be putting my tag on a doe this year on the last day simply because i have no 5 year old or older deer on my place nor at the other 3 farms  that i hunt. Unfortunately, very few people do use the kind of restraint that you and i do in not taking younger bucks.

again, what i am getting at is that everyone has their own opinion on many facets of hunting......... who am i to say that because i haven't hunted big game with a firearm since i was a sophomore in high school that rifle season should be shorter? yes i would like that but i have many people that i care about that would be devastated if that were the case. Same goes with baiting deer and elk. guys such as yourself obviously enjoy it and who's to say that i am right and you are wrong..... same could be said of QDM....... the list goes on and on.

i think the main argument in baiting is that it makes it easier......... in many cases more of a shoot than a hunt (this is where i think regulations could be valuable). makes it easier, ups the odds, increases success....... its all semantics. bottom line is baiting increases the odds. in some cases it renders hunting to shooting...... in others it may only provide a single glimpse of a mountain monarch in a season....... but, in general...... the way it is primarily practiced in our state....... it significantly ups the odds. i don't think anyone can honestly deny that.

 I do not have the luxury to sit at a stand for the off chance that a big buck will come through. I hedge my bets with a camera and play the odds.

sure you could...... how did you do it prior to trail cams? 

[Seabass]

You guys both make some good points but there isn't much of a desire amongst the hunting community in Washington to practice any kind of QDM. Most don't believe in the basic principles and those that do don't believe it will work here. I don't agree with those people. I believe QDM can work anywhere but it has to be a coordinated effort.

I believed in it enoughto actually start a local branch of the QDMA a few years ago. Most of you are probably unaware htere ever was one. In fact if you go to the QDMA website you will see that it still lists the branch ( Inland NW Branch) as active and myself (Josh Potter) as the president. The branch is not active.Our branch died a slow death becuase there simply weren't enough people that believed it would work or more likely had the discipline to wait long enough for it to work. I had a lot of energy for this back then and thought that if we could educate enough hunters that they would come around to that way of thinking. I was wrong!

I still believe in it and still practice it myself. I encourage everyone around me to consider a few ideas every year. I hunt predominantly public land and still believe that our herds can improve one hunter at a time. The 2 main principles of QDM are the adequate harvest of does and the age of buck harvest. There is a distinct difference in QDM and trophy deer management. Trophy deer management is very expensive and time consuming. IF you read the book Quality Whitetails you will see these 2 principles as the real keys to the whole deal. The other things like nutrition and genetics are the things that most want to focus on but the fact is adequate doe harvest and allowing bucks to reach 3 1/2 years of age prior to harvest is the crux of the whole deal.

After spending 3 solid years interacting with the hunting community in my area I came to the conclusion that the main reason any kind of QDM is so difficult is the fact that 90% of our hunting takes place on public ground and that has an impact on a hunter's attitude. Every time I ask a hunter why he killed a young buck his response is, "if I don't somone else will". That is why I supported and fought for the antler point restrictions. Despite the fact that I understand antler points don't equate to age I thought it would help some young deer escape. This is the problem when people stay ignorant. They get handed rules because you can't legislate education but you can always make a rule.

I don't think baiting would be as big of an issue as it pertains to harvest (besides the moral dilema) if more people would show some restraint on pulling the trigger. Most people on here believe putting hunting pressure on the older age class in bad. They are totally wrong if you only kill mature bucks then next year ther is a brand new crop of mature bucks. The age structure can stay more constant and I argue more healthy. There are a ton of other issues that we will never all agree on and I don't pretend to be a bilogist but I am educated on the principles of QDM and believe they work.

[Seabass]

I would love to see more pics like this one instead of 58 inch baby bucks on the back of a tail gate. This picture is from last year. My partner shot one of those and I shot the other. It was the last day of the season and we passed on countless young bucks and were proud to take these slick heads out of the pool. I undersand that most of the hunting public does not have this option like the primitive weapons groups do. I also think that makes it even more imparitve for those of us that do have the option to excercise that option when possible.

[gjbruny]

seabass- i agree 100%

[Annette]

I have hunted bucks both ways and taken good bucks both ways, Hunting over bait is no gimme hunt. The deer are very wise to everything in their environment and spooky especially over bait.
My ancestors have used every tool to harvest an animal, even bait. Why bring in disease bearing wolves into our state then turn around and act like they realy care about our deer herds? We have one tag....if we can fill it we'll buy another tag next year. If not we'll turn to hunting another state...simple math.

[Seabass]

I wish I had known about this site in 2007 when I started the branch. Maybe we would have gained more support and still be alive. I believed in it to the point where I paid out of my own pocket for the Western director to come out here and help us get started. The president of the organization told me he couldn't send his guy out because the next closest branch was in Kansas and that would spread him too thin with the budget he had. I said fine I'll pay his way!

Despite the the fact that we failed to stay alive I never regret a penny of that money because I learned a lot and a few people came around. The department thinks the whole thing is a joke and that made it even more difficult to succeed.
I don't expect every hunter to have the same level of passion or dedication that some of you guys obviously have. I just wish all hunters would put a tiny little bit more thought into deer rather than just deer hunting. That's all

[WAcoyotehunter]

Hi Seabass... Good to see you on here.  It's a shame QDMA didn't gain more ground here.  It was nice seeing some results come from the involvement with the APR in Stevens/Pend Oreille counties.  We did make a difference there.

Bart

[Seabass]

Hey Bart! I guess you are right we did make a small impact with the help of some others. There are a lot of folks who didn't like the impact but I believe it is working.

[Elkstuffer]

I think that the huge misconception for people that are against baiting is that they think that if you dump a 5 gal bucket of corn on the ground you have all of the trophy bucks from 2 square miles come running in.

That being said I've baited up in the NE corner of our state for the last 4 seasons. I've averaged the 5 hour drive at least 3-4 times before the season begins. Spend a lot of money on fuel and bait and have yet to kill a trophy buck. The first 3 years I could have taken an immature buck and chose not to. And this year I hit it wrong and saw 2 does total. It is not easy and it sure as heck isn't a slam dunk.

People need to get of there holier than thou high moral horse and realize that we as hunters are all in this fight together. If you don't agree with a certain type of hunting then don't do it. There are lots of different hunting practices that are perfectly legal. I don't agree with all of them but i sure as hell aren't going to fight other hunters about them. I don't agree with shooting an animal at 800+ yrds. Too many things can go wrong resulting in a wounded and not recovered animal. I have friends that do. It's legal. I just choose not to hunt that way.

If we don't ban together we're going to loose more than just baiting rights. We'll loose our HUNTING rights!