GMAC to discuss deer/elk baiting in the future.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

DB, you know how i feel about this subject....... bottom line is, it makes it easier no question about it...... to what extent i think depends on the area..... but it does make it easier all things equal. for instance, look at matt alwines wife's hunt here in WA when she was pregnant on trophy state of mind. that was a 4 year old deer that had 3 arrows flung at it and it still came back. try that near an alfalfa field or food plot and lets see if the outcome is the same.

now before anyone flames me, just read my entire post as i am torn on the subject.

GJ.. You said "try that near an alfalfa field or food plot and lets see if the outcome is the same". I actually have quite the collection of deer hunting videos. I have seen similar scenarios like this happen numerous time on hunts from Iowa, Kansas, Montana etc.  None of them are over bait. Some of them are in CRP, along active trails, in food plots etc. In fact some of them are even shot at with a rifle two or three times and they just run around in a circle out in the field and start feeding again. The reason these deer don't run away and not come back is usually due to lack of pressure in that area so the threat does not seem that great. In other regions of the country (SE Arkansas being a good example) the deer will be out of there at almost any unnatural sound...regardless of  the bait. So yes... the outcome very well could be the same and has more to do with the lower pressure we experience than the actual bait itself.

look, i have hunted over baits in the past and killed some damn fine animals...... im completely guilty of it. i have also had hunts just like matt's wife where i wiffed a shot, grazed the chest, and the buck came right back in though in a heightened state of alertness and i still killed the buck. there is absolutely no question that bait makes hunting easier....... now im not talking physically easier...... anyone that has ever run a bait station for deer, bear or elk knows the work involved......... BUT......... IT SIGNIFICANTLY UPS THE SUCCESS RATE AND IS LESS CHALLENGING FROM A STRATEGIC STANDPOINT. IT ALSO REDUCES SCOUTING TIME INVOLVED TO TRULY PATTERN AN ANIMAL.... ESPECIALLY A MATURE ANIMAL.

The strategy may be "different" but after hunting mature bucks with and without bait I haven't found it to be strategically less challenging. You must be hunting different mature bucks than I do over bait. I can tell you this. To be consistent year after year on mature bucks on bait there is still plenty strategy that is necessary. If it wasn't then I would be killing 170-200 gross bucks every single year (as my trailcams show). The problem is my strategy fails more often than not... even though I try to consider all the things you mention below... predominant winds, thermals, etc.

the amount of driving and time spent behind the glass/scouting/patterning is significantly higher than working your arse off once or twice a week packing in food to a remote area and pulling an SD card.

Again.. I have not found this to be a fact. I spend far more time in the field since I started baiting.. I would agree that this may not be the case for the majority.. but for me I have found it requires far more time with boots on ground and driving. When I am scouting like you are talking about above I am usually only keeping track of one or two animals... that is much easier to do than trying to keep track of a half dozen or more.

BAITING IS A MUCH MORE CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT than any food plot, agricultural field, or an apple tree that produces for 3 weeks a year. anyone that says otherwise is lying to themselves. food plots and especially alfalfa fields are typically large enough that many deer can be feeding in it and be well out of bow range....... and well out of gun range for many. many times a mature animal will enter a food plot or alfalfa field  seemingly with the wind in his face at all times as i am sure the monsters do to DB's baits that he has so many pics of. a food plot that is small enough to be covered from one end to the other by one archer will typically not be too awful productive simpily because those are usually very specialized plots that are absolutely grown to attract deer, and as such, they get pounded so hard and fast the by deer once the sprouts break the soil's surface that there usually isn't that much to eat and deer may check it out while heading to their main food source..... but they will hit said plot  sparingly compared to a corn feeder or bales of hay during the winter....... trust me, i am guilty of having tried to grow food plots just like this.

Certainly it is much easier to manipulate the location of the food source to increase the advantage in your favor. But it's far from shooting fish in a barrel and I have yet to see it take the "hunt" out of hunting. That being said... I am sure every serious whitetail hunter here would gladly give up baiting for exclusive access to 1,000 or more acres and sufficient funds to manage and grow big deer however they pleased.

  if a hunter knows what he is doing with putting out his set, baits absolutely focus the deer right to a hunter with a higher success rate of the hunter going undetected  unlike food plots that are large enough to be productive or alfalfa fields. apple trees around here are about the only permanent fixture on a property that can attract deer as well as a bait....... but again........ the location of a mature tree can't be manipulated to take advantage of travel patterns, predominant wind direction, thermals ect.

Look how many Days Bill Winke hunted that 190-200 this year over the same location. Look at how he hit it last year and missed it a couple times on the same field over the last few years. The buck kept coming back to the same general locations. It was basically only a matter of time until the conditions were just right that Bill was going to get a shot at that deer. Aside from poachers or a natural death there was very little that could go wrong unless he overpressured it.. That being said.. the nature of that field allowed him to hunt it day after day for quite some time... Try doing that with a bait in the big woods... No matter how careful you are the odds are you are going to see a serious drop in activity if you hunt that stand as much as Bill was hunting his area. Not to mention Bill was constantly spooking deer out of that field.. yet the next evening there they were again..... you do that a couple of times in the big woods and you probably won't even see the does.

my take on baiting is this...... it is a very effective tool for management. it is great for running trail cams to do buck inventories (do lots of it myself). i think it is valuable in areas where deer/game numbers are above carying capacities. it is great for setting up high percentage shots for new hunters/youth......... BUT.........I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE MICROMANAGED. in big timbered areas i dont see as much of an issue with it. mountain bucks are almost unpatternable for the most part very similar to big woods canadian deer and texas brush deer. on the flip side, i think in agricultural areas with smaller blocks of timber, it should be controlled. for instance, we have several sets of neighbors that have their permanent blinds set up 30 yards from 8-10 bales of hay, beets, apples, and pumpkins. these blinds are for the most part scent free/sealed up and are only used by rifle hunters. in cases like this, it seems more like grocery shopping than hunting as the deer really don't stand a chance...... and beef at the store is a hell of a lot cheaper than what these guys spend on their bait piles and licenses. in areas like this, it creates very shallow age structures where we see many yearlings doing the breeding because EVERYTHING takes a dirt nap.

What I am starting to gather is that you personally (while not necessarily being against baiting) have a big conflict of interest with it. Baiting allows guys who do not have your means to knock on your neighbors door and get permission hunt 20 or 30 acres that the deer may rarely travel through (which would make a lot of scouting almost pointless for the guy unless he could gain access to more land ). He is then able to put out his version of your "food plot" by setting out bait and he is then able to draw some of "your" deer over to that property and kill them... It's no secret that providing everything a deer needs is a large landowners best bet in keeping deer on the property. The more resources you provide to meet that deers needs the less often they will leave it. Often in these situation the bucks core areas even shrink because they don't need to travel very far to meet their needs. As you know Iowa doesn't allow hunting over bait and guys with means like Lee Lakosky have perfected this. He even talks about it in his book. I am sure Lee wouldn't like it much if baiting was allowed there either considering all the effort and money he puts into those food plots. In the late season particularly he is able to draw deer in from miles around...and he has even admitted...some of them end up staying.

If I was a large landowner with money to spend on food plots I wouldn't like baiting in "small woodlot/agricultural" areas either. I would love it if the food I was providing the deer was the most nutritious food available. It's obvious what the results would be. Believe me...that would be a dream come true. In fact.. I may actually move to Iowa one day for that very reason..... but I still will not support any bans on baiting and would even push to legalize it.

Tell you what GJ  the day you commit to not growing any food sources of any kind that deer favor and I will support a full out baiting ban. (I know your not pushing for a baiting ban.. just making that statement more for effect to try and solidify my point.)

on top of that, baiting has made it so that guys don't have to scout nearly as much as without bait..... couple that with trail cams flooding the woods over the bait piles and guys won't even sit their stands at times knowing that there is a low percentage that the buck will be in that day and thus they stay out of the woods till he is back (been there done it...... i'm totally guilty and i would not have killed my '07 WA buck the night i did without this exact circumstance).

I spend more time scouting and more time in stand as a result of baiting and trail cameras so I can't completely relate to this.

now don't get me wrong, i love trail cams and own A LOT of them and have the luxury of checking them daily...... but........ i also think Montana has their head on strait when it comes to them as well.

Yes.. if you have own a nice agricultural field/CRP etc where you can openly and easily glass deer from a distance (like they do in the midwest) going without a trail camera would be just fine. Trail cameras are certainly an amazing scouting tool for the big woods... and they are a lot of fun. You mention therapy below... trail cams are part of my therapy.... but I can tell you this..even it was possible there is now way I could check my cameras daily in the areas I hunt and expect mature bucks to ever appear in front of them in daylight. I don't think the buck I hunt recieve much more hunting pressure than the bucks on your land (they may even recieve less). But I do believe the higher degree of predator threats in the mountains make those bucks much more wary than the deer living in agricultural and suburban areas of this state.

i'm really torn on the baiting subject...... again, i think it definitely has its place but needs to be micromanaged. there is no question that baiting is rampant in our state and i firmly believe it has hurt the overall quality of the herds in many parts of our state. to what extent i am not sure. while there are many topographical and environmental differences, there is a reason why Wisconson and Iowa consistently and more commonly produce true giants with solid age structure in their herds...... and i think we can all agree that the eastern part of our state has the genetic potential. its the management, both public and private, that are holding us back.

Wisconsin was producing plenty of big deer when baiting was allowed. I will agree that baiting is far more prevalent than I have ever seen it in this state. 15 years ago most people I spoke to thought baiting was illegal in this state. I can tell you the big woods I hunt has outstanding age structure and buck to doe ratios. I believe it's very close to 1:1 and sometimes it even seems there are more bucks than does. I do believe the mixed woods/agricultural areas certainly have skewed buck/doe ratios.

on the flip side, i don't think taking baiting completely away is the answer either. there are obviously people that enjoy it just like i used to enjoy the days of baiting bears in our state. so who am i to say that baiting for deer or elk should be completely removed? again, i just think it should be micromanaged.

i guess we just have to ask ourselves the question that is debated almost endlessly....... where do we draw the line so that the hunt remains in hunting?

I'm not sure where we draw the line but the fact that the largest majority of people don't fill their tag in this state suggests that there is still plenty of "hunt" left in "hunting" under our current rules.

btw, i know the costs associated with baiting. like some of you here, i also spend TONS of money feeding the deer as i feed them year round.... i don't buy corn by the barrel, i buy it by the ton..... monthly. i also spend tons of money on diesel and seed every year on our crops and large food plots. i also know that each and every evening i walk out into my pasture near my house and pour 80-100lbs of corn for 45 deer on a slow night, to well over 100 in the winter (my daily therapy). i do this every single day of the year...... and nearly every single day, i have mature bucks within 20 feet of me. can post pics tomorrow evening if anyone needs proof.  i have done it to the extreme both ways and a conditioned animal is easier to kill than one that is not.

I can understand how this is your therapy just like running these baits and trail cameras is mine... (and many others).... I do believe you have conditioned your bucks to where they let you get within 20 feet. I have a friend who has deer on his property that are basically pets and they will certainly let you get that close. However, I do highly doubt you would be able to "condition" a mature big woods mountain buck to the point that he will let you walk within 20 feet of him...no matter how much bait you use.

[gjbruny]

DB- i could take a bunch of time and go back and debate all your points but i'm not going to. neither one of us will ever see eye to eye on that and i'm ok with that. u started a thread and i gave my opinion. just one question....... all things equal, do you believe that baiting significantly ups the odds of success?

[Seabass]

How are we defining success? Just being able to shoot a buck or mature buck?

[gjbruny]

general overall success in the state...... not just a select few of us that only target a specific animal or two...... but might as well add that in too.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

DB- i could take a bunch of time and go back and debate all your points but i'm not going to. neither one of us will ever see eye to eye on that and i'm ok with that. u started a thread and i gave my opinion. just one question....... all things equal, do you believe that baiting significantly ups the odds of success?

I'm ok with it too brother. 

All things being equal there is no doubt baiting ups overall success in the state. But my point is that success would be no worse if baiting wasn't allowed and everyone had exclusive access too 1K acres and could plant food plots etc. (and in that respect it wouldn't matter whether we were talking just overall harvest or big bucks) Baiting certainly gives an edge... just like shooting a rifle gives an edge...and just like having food plots give an edge... but baiting is far from creating any kind of huge advantage in killing a big buck. 

[gjbruny]

 But my point is that success would be no worse if baiting wasn't allowed and everyone had exclusive access too 1K acres and could plant food plots etc. (and in that respect it wouldn't matter whether we were talking just overall harvest or big bucks) Baiting certainly gives an edge... just like shooting a rifle gives an edge...and just like having food plots give an edge... but baiting is far from creating any kind of huge advantage in killing a big buck. 

then we will agree to disagree. 

btw, you get that buck yet that was closer to home or you still chasing those BIG boys?

[colockumelk]

Since I havnt debated DB for a long time, and for that reason alone I am going to say hunting over bait is unfair and should be made illegal. 

[buck man]

Since I havnt debated DB for a long time, and for that reason alone I am going to say hunting over bait is unfair and should be made illegal. 

 

[DBHAWTHORNE]

 But my point is that success would be no worse if baiting wasn't allowed and everyone had exclusive access too 1K acres and could plant food plots etc. (and in that respect it wouldn't matter whether we were talking just overall harvest or big bucks) Baiting certainly gives an edge... just like shooting a rifle gives an edge...and just like having food plots give an edge... but baiting is far from creating any kind of huge advantage in killing a big buck. 

then we will agree to disagree. 

btw, you get that buck yet that was closer to home or you still chasing those BIG boys?

We can do that.  I know we disagree from each of our own personal experiences. My experience is that I have seen absolutely no rise in my success rate on killing mature animals from baiting. However, my success rate of finding mature animals has increased exponentially as a result of baiting and cameras.

I just finished working for the week. I checked some of my cams tonight. It looks like there is very little daylight activity on any of them and all mature buck movement past my cams has been at night.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Since I havnt debated DB for a long time, and for that reason alone I am going to say hunting over bait is unfair and should be made illegal. 

 

[gjbruny]

crap....... my previous post was supposed to read........ we will have to agree to disagree followed by this series of pics.



i forgot to load the links to the pics the first time around..... kind of loses its bite now.

maybe not for you but baiting upped the odds for another lucky fellow on this mountain buck that you are all too familiar with.  they are deer, they are not untouchable regardless of where they live.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

crap....... my previous post was supposed to read........ we will have to agree to disagree followed by this series of pics.



i forgot to load the links to the pics the first time around..... kind of loses its bite now.

maybe not for you but baiting upped the odds for another lucky fellow on this mountain buck that you are all too familiar with.  they are deer, they are not untouchable regardless of where they live.

   The buck was nearly three miles outside of his core area... I can assure you it wasn't for bait.

[steen]

I don't condone anyone from baiting at all.  I have personally never hunted over bait and may not until I can't t hunt without it. I don't consider hunting over an alfalfa field a farmer planted to harvest baiting either nor orchards  but food plots are baiting to me if they r specifically planted for hunting deer.  Just not my prefered method.  I may get to the point where it may be necessary to do so as well as using ATVs.  Now there is another topic! Just my 

[huntnnw]

I don't condone anyone from baiting at all.  I have personally never hunted over bait and may not until I can't t hunt without it. I don't consider hunting over an alfalfa field a farmer planted to harvest baiting either nor orchards  but food plots are baiting to me if they r specifically planted for hunting deer.  Just not my preferred method.  I may get to the point where it may be necessary to do so as well as using ATVs.  Now there is another topic! Just my 

Really? have u hunted whitetails?  I have hunted many of alfalfa fields over the years and apple orchards and that's not baiting because of the particular use of it?? I ll tell u right now its the easiest way to hunt whitetails in Sept...I can just glass fields in August make mental notes of where the deer enter the fields and hang a stand its simple and I have passed 100's of bucks doing this its almost to easy to get just a buck, getting the pig to walk by in daylight sometimes is another story. Just this year I hunted the early and late over a 10 tree orchard...Dec 2nd they were still pounding the trees

[Steve Jo]

pretty good topic.

My opinion is that Game Cameras offer more of an edge than Baiting, but that's just splitting hairs.

The truth of the matter is that we all make personal choices to use what aids we feel are necessary to meet our personal definition of success. That can be Bait, optics, centerfire rifle,  treestands, compounds, scents, trail cameras et all. and we will justify our position because it fits for us.

I think regardless of your neighbors hunting decisions, it's really best not to judge.