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Community => Taxidermy & Scoring => Topic started by: doe girl on January 13, 2013, 02:16:02 PM

Title: Expert opinion please
Post by: doe girl on January 13, 2013, 02:16:02 PM: Hello all I'm new to this stuff do to my significant other loving to hunt. He recently get his skull whitened. I was looking at it at comparing it to his original pictures he took of it after he shot it. Before and after photos. My assumption is it isn't his skull. Can teeth shapes change during the whitening process? They just don't look the same. Originals look nice and flat and whitened look like they are pointed. Please look at photos and tell me what you think. Thanks.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: ellensburgpo on January 13, 2013, 02:19:30 PM: Look the same to me, but those pictures are at completely different angles. :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: link on January 13, 2013, 02:19:53 PM: Take the skull, turn it up towards the camera as it is in the field photo, take a picture and then compare again. Angles can change the appearance. :twocents:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Cap.Silver on January 13, 2013, 02:21:07 PM: I'm not an expert ,it seems like another skull to me based on the shape of teeth before and after ..... maybe someone will know what whitening does to it . :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Alan K on January 13, 2013, 02:21:57 PM: Of the 6 teeth between the canines in the top row, the second one in from the left and the second one in from the right look different to me, like you said. Flatter in the field picture than the euro. Like link said though, the angles can be deceiving. :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: PolarBear on January 13, 2013, 02:24:25 PM: Teeth often loosen up in the process and have to be glued into place. Sometimes they don't go back exactly where they were. It looks like the same skull to me, just a tiny shift in the teeth.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Cap.Silver on January 13, 2013, 02:26:10 PM: It is still great looking skull I must say :tup:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 13, 2013, 02:42:56 PM: What lead you to compare the skull to the pictures in the first place? Was it the size of the skull when you got it back?
Title: Expert opinion please
Post by: stickbuck on January 13, 2013, 02:47:50 PM: I agree with PolarBear. Teeth often become loose and have to be glued. Very common. Measurements of the skull would be best if your buddy was worried about it like Michelle said.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: doe girl on January 13, 2013, 03:05:05 PM: Wow lots of responses to this thanks. I can't figure out how to attach pictures when replying to all of this. I'll try again. As for size not sure how to even do that? I only looked at the before and after do to him showing and asking my opinion. Teeth looked different in shape to me personally. I know he goes on this site all the time so I created an account to ask expert opinions on it. Just trying to calm his nerves a little.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Todd_ID on January 13, 2013, 03:37:59 PM: I'm no expert, but the teeth in the field photo look to be a year or two older of a bear than the ones in the euro skull. Each tooth seems more defined and sharper in the euro that came back. :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: PolarBear on January 13, 2013, 03:39:08 PM: Because they are clean. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: The100Road on January 13, 2013, 03:45:13 PM: Like mentioned that with the angel its hard to tell. but to me the very two front teeth in the picture are flat and very close together and on the scull that is whitened, they are a upside down V shape. seperated at the bottom. :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: link on January 13, 2013, 05:24:04 PM: Quote from: PolarBear on January 13, 2013, 03:39:08 PM
Because they are clean. :chuckle:
And have no gums.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Bean Counter on January 13, 2013, 05:26:00 PM: Michelle: don't they shrink in the process?
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: quadrafire on January 13, 2013, 05:34:37 PM: No expert here, but I think that is the same skull. The incisors (little teeth) will shift after the gums and ligaments loosen with maceration. Those canine teeth are awsome in both the before and after.
I would say job well done :tup:

Nice bear skull!!!
Title: Expert opinion please
Post by: sirmissalot on January 13, 2013, 05:36:17 PM: The shape of the teeth wouldn't change after whitening. It's pretty hard to tell from the pictures.

Who did the skull? It wouldn't be too difficult to get it mixed up with another but they should have been tagged with the hunters name the whole process.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: smdave on January 13, 2013, 05:39:11 PM: Maybe a side by side would be better.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: JLS on January 13, 2013, 05:56:32 PM: No expert, but it sure looks like the same skull to me.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: daydreamn on January 13, 2013, 09:29:35 PM: Quote from: PolarBear on January 13, 2013, 02:24:25 PM
Teeth often loosen up in the process and have to be glued into place. Sometimes they don't go back exactly where they were. It looks like the same skull to me, just a tiny shift in the teeth.

Exactly! Looks like somone did a good job on the skull to.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: 724wd on January 14, 2013, 10:25:22 AM: boy, that side-by-side... looks like different teeth to me! :yike:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: muzbuster on January 14, 2013, 10:28:28 AM: Looks the same to me.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: boneaddict on January 14, 2013, 10:30:59 AM: Well I have never seen teeth change shape. They may shift, but the teeth arent going to change. Seems obviously different to me. Seems most obvious, top row, 2nd to the left from center. :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Ballance1 on January 14, 2013, 10:58:50 AM: Could be the same skull and some teeth fell out in the process and were glued back in the wrong spots.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Capt Morgan on January 14, 2013, 11:09:24 AM: I'm not sure if Teeth change shape after death but the top row isn't even close to matching up. :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 14, 2013, 11:49:55 AM: Teeth do not change shape after death, after cleaning, or after drying. If they did shrink it would not be enough that you could see with your nakid eye. The Skull will shrink a bit after it is cleaned and dry but then again your talking minimal that you wouldn't really be able to tell unless you measured it. The most I have had a skull shrink that I have cleaned was about an 1/8 -3/8 inch. That was a BIG skull though.

From what I am seeing, just going by the teeth, I think there is a good possibility it is the same skull.

If the picture of the Bear after death wasn't as blurry I'd have been able to comare it a little better.
Title: Expert opinion please
Post by: sirmissalot on January 14, 2013, 12:18:03 PM: I'm not sure I've ever been able to get teeth to go into the wrong spot. If they were in the wrong spot it would be obvious, they wouldn't match up so well, do I'd throw that possibility out.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: PolarBear on January 14, 2013, 12:25:32 PM: You haven't done enough euro's yet. They will go back in the same spot but might not line up like they were originally, especially on smaller teeth like on cats.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: predatorpro on January 14, 2013, 12:42:04 PM: Quote from: Capt Morgan on January 14, 2013, 11:09:24 AM
I'm not sure if Teeth change shape after death but the top row isn't even close to matching up. :dunno:
:yeah:
i agree! the teeth are different for sure! no question there!
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: huntergreg on January 14, 2013, 12:47:38 PM: looks like they don't match up to me. :twocents:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: sirmissalot on January 14, 2013, 01:08:03 PM: Quote from: PolarBear on January 14, 2013, 12:25:32 PM
You haven't done enough euro's yet. They will go back in the same spot but might not line up like they were originally, especially on smaller teeth like on cats.

Like I said, its pretty easy to tell when you put a tooth in the wrong spot. Never done a house cat but I've done done plenty of skulls. The teeth in question are all in the proper place. In my novice opinion of course. :bow:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: blacktailcody on January 14, 2013, 01:24:13 PM: I think its the same skull but the pic is really blurry.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Ballance1 on January 14, 2013, 01:48:21 PM: After my missplaced teeth thought, I do believe it is the origianal skull.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 14, 2013, 02:42:21 PM: It is possible that the person who did the skull did several in one container and when the teeth fell out they got mixed up. There is no telling every taxidermist/Skull Cleaner has there own way of doing things. Is it the right way? Maybe not to some or most. Ya never know. Some of the teeth may have come from another skull?

I have done a ton of skulls and most of the time the teeth will only fit in the holes they came from. Not every time though. Sometimes the front teeth can fit in other skulls but they just won't line up quite right. To most they will look fine but to a trained eye you can see where they don't match up.

I always macerate my skulls in individual containers to prevent teeth from becoming mixed up. I pull the skulls out of the Maceration and put them in the degreaser in the same container they came from. Then I pull the teeth and put each skulls teeth in there own individual zip lock bag with the coresponding number until I am ready to whiten.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: C-Money on January 14, 2013, 02:51:24 PM: I agree with Alan and Bone. The top row, 2nd from center left looks very different. I would say that there are some pretty obvious differences.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: sirmissalot on January 14, 2013, 02:51:35 PM: Thats a good point though Michelle I hadn't thought of that. Thats definitely a possibility, I do it the same way as you in separate containers, at least for predator type skulls.

I'm still curious what made you question if its your bear's skull?
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: turkeyfeather on January 14, 2013, 03:02:45 PM: I am no expert, but based on the pics provided some of the teeth do look different.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: hornhunter1987 on January 14, 2013, 05:47:45 PM: definitely looks like different teeth to me. is it weird to question if you got the right skull? that was the first thing i did with mine.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: doe girl on January 14, 2013, 08:09:51 PM: Wow the feedback is great here. Could go either way. He did check the pics right away and he noticed a difference in shapes. He just got it back a few weeks ago. The first pic with hair looked like flat teeth and the skull picture looked way pointier shaped. I could only find one picture with hair. I still haven't told him about thisquestion I posted on here dont want him to be mad for doing it . If you were him would you call the skull cleaner guy and ask him about it? Thanks agin
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: daydreamn on January 14, 2013, 08:17:25 PM: Guess you better take some DNA samples. :chuckle: The K-9 teeth line up exactly in both pictures. Go get two skulls and set them side by side, I guarantee the K-9 teeth will NOT look the same.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: cougarbart on January 14, 2013, 08:20:15 PM: i look and what keeps getting me is the field pix the gum line is there and then not after cleaned! i think they look different just because you see the whole tooth paint a gum line on the pix and look!lol
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Jason on January 14, 2013, 08:29:48 PM: The shapes of all the teeth look different between the two pictures, the teeth on the bear he killed look more worn and flat k9's look dull, the teeth on the euro look sharper and the k9's look to be pointier.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on January 14, 2013, 08:49:00 PM: Quote from: hornhunter1987 on January 14, 2013, 05:47:45 PM
is it weird to question if you got the right skull? that was the first thing i did with mine.

I am not sure I am understanding you statement. Are you saying you had reason to believe it wasn't your skull when you got it back? Size? Teeth shape? something stood out?

or are you saying you always question a Taxidermist/Skull Cleaner when you recieve something back?
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: smdave on January 14, 2013, 08:59:44 PM: I tried to simulate the gum line, but these two teeth do not at all look like they are the same but I am no expert.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: runamuk on January 14, 2013, 09:04:27 PM: Quote from: smdave on January 14, 2013, 08:59:44 PM
I tried to simulate the gum line, but these two teeth do not at all look like they are the same but I am no expert.

no they do not and it doesnt take expertise to see something has changed :dunno: :dunno: that is weird
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: snowshoes22 on January 14, 2013, 09:15:04 PM: They look completely different to me. The kill pic's are flat and worn and the skull pic's are pointed. I can see the teeth looking different at the gum line but not the other end? :dunno:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: quadrafire on January 15, 2013, 08:51:58 AM: SMDAVE, that is a good photo analysis, looking at that I may change my mind.
They do not look the same.
We need a bite analysis like Marv Albert had.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2013, 10:29:41 AM: THose are the ones I was looking at. It surprises me that folks think they look the same. The shape of that one tooth is completely different in my eyes.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: JoeE on January 15, 2013, 09:00:32 PM: The shape of the teeth are different. Different skull.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: BeeMan on January 16, 2013, 05:41:36 PM: I see slight differences in the top teeth that everyone is pointing out....
But everyone is ignoring the bottom row of teeth! They look Identical to me. No variances whatsoever.

Given what has been clearly explained by experienced taxidermists already that the teeth could have been repositioned incorrectly or mistakenly replaced with teeth from a different skull I see no compelling evidence to convince me that it is a different skull.....Rather there are way to many similarities in my opinion for it to be a different skull.

I say same skull!! :twocents:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: hornhunter1987 on January 17, 2013, 02:51:12 PM: Quote from: Michelle_Nelson on January 14, 2013, 08:49:00 PM
Quote from: hornhunter1987 on January 14, 2013, 05:47:45 PM
is it weird to question if you got the right skull? that was the first thing i did with mine.

I am not sure I am understanding you statement. Are you saying you had reason to believe it wasn't your skull when you got it back? Size? Teeth shape? something stood out?

or are you saying you always question a Taxidermist/Skull Cleaner when you recieve something back?

i guess i dont question all taxidermist or skull cleaners. most things are pretty difficult to get mixed up. but i could see skulls getting put in with others or mistakes happening. in my opinion it happened to this guy. i could be wrong though. it takes just a couple minutes to compare your skull with a picture so why not do it. i also count my change when some one hands it back to me and it isnt free to have these things done. if you were to get a buck back and the antlers were different would you say something? i would. i dont see how this is any different. i dont mean to offend any of the taxidermist on this site it just seems normal to me to double check things :twocents:
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: fishhuntconsume on January 17, 2013, 05:58:43 PM: looks like he got the wrong skull back to me!
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Smokepole on January 17, 2013, 06:04:35 PM: Looks like two different skulls. That sucks.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Hunter Dug on January 22, 2013, 08:19:33 AM: Doe. I can tell you that those top teeth are definatly diffrent on this bear minus the k9's as said in past posts; however there is little chance that the skull is from a diffrent bear. Knowing that it is not one of my skulls I can say, overall this year I have worked on over 20 bear heads, and some times teeth do get mixed up, and yes teeth do fit in diffrent skulls. You do have to remember that the Taxidermist/skull cleaner has only one reference of the skull and that is with meat, and gum tissue before it is put in the beetles, or maserated, so unless they are strictly seperated they can be mixed up. I highly dought the individual that cleaned this skull purposely did this, but it does happen Im sure I am guilty of it unknowingly. I would contact the Taxidermist, and ask if it is possible that teeth may have gotten mix up, and possible he has the originals. The skull is well clean and to me JUST MY OPINION would not be bothered by it. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: doe girl on February 09, 2013, 10:59:47 PM: Well my concerns have now been addressed. The skull and teeth just aren't the same. Thanks to all that have confirmed this for me. I'm pretty sure when my hubby brings this up to the taxidermist they'll have some explaining to do.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Mr Mykiss on February 10, 2013, 06:38:46 AM: Look forward to hearing how it goes. I wonder who has your bear and where the one you have came from...
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: RightPlace-RightTime on February 11, 2013, 11:34:02 PM: That for sure is not the same skull and teeth.

When the taxi is at fault, what do most taxi's do about it? Its obvious you will never get your personal trophy skull back.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: scotty1969 on February 12, 2013, 12:50:00 AM: im no expert either,but what teeth have to be pulled and sent in?maybe a tooth fell out during the boil and got lost and replaced because all the other teeth do look the same to me.
Title: Re: Expert opinion please
Post by: Band on February 12, 2013, 09:45:32 AM: OK, it's time to order a DNA analysis on the bear blood that didn't wash out of your jeans, the cape, the skull, and each tooth. ;)