Post by: waterdoctor on January 19, 2013, 09:45:35 AM
Based on the reports here I have mapped out the probable wolf packs in the state. I think that we have at least 15 packs in the state now in all three management areas. The problem is the staffing the Fish and Wildlife has and the documentation required to confirm a breeding pack. The reports that are submitted to F&W do not as a rule have the detail they need to spend resources on locating a pack. I know because it was a chore getting Paul up to trap and document the wedge pack.
When I get back home if anyone wants to learn how to properly bag and tag wolf scat for DNA testing I will be glad to help. Also on how to get pictures of wolf tracks with the detail that the F&W needs. The biggest thing we can do to get the wolves de-listed is to get pictures from trail cams that have wolf pups in them. If you have these and have all the right supporting documentation then they can move forward with saying that it is a breeding pack.
I am going to try and get F&W to sign off on me giving this training so that the higher ups will accept our information. And no I am not going to look for any money on the deal but if you bring a six pack I will have one or three.
As has been mentioned here wolves can sustain a 40 to 50 percent yearly mortality and maintain their numbers. The biggest mortality cause for wolves is interaction with other wolf packs. Until there numbers are high enough for packs home ranges to butt up next to each other they will increase in numbers and form additional packs. Parvo, mange and distemper are the big hitters as is the wolves killing each other in fights. The other thing is the wolves running out of prey animals to eat.
Looking at the numbers of elk killed per year by a wolf that was presented in the meeting this week a person can figure out pretty easy how long it will take the wolves in a pack to wipe out the herds in their range. The easiest way is to look at the AMU's that the area can support. Figure one AMU per elk and you will have a pretty good idea on how many elk the area can hold. It is not perfect but it will get you within 20% plus or minus. I think that this is why the wedge pack turned to cattle. To many wolves and not enough game.
The biologist stated that we were going to see an exponential increase in wolves this next year. I had done some figuring and I came up with an additional 32 to 48 wolves this next year. That is going to hit the elk herds bad on the east side.
There is two real good ways of knowing if you have an active pack in the area. One you hear the wolves howling. The next is if you have coyote packs that generally do a lot of howling and they stop. Around our place I know the wolves are around if the coyotes stop making noise. If it is just a lone wolf or a pair they do not seem to impact the coyotes but a pack puts the fear of god into them.
I have not at this time got a good reply to what makes a wolf a hybrid. I had one coming on the place that I was sure was a hybrid based on it's behavior. I told Dana and Jay that I thought it was a hybrid and then they got interested in finding out about it. Even had Jay at my place a time or two. The key is to be able to talk the talk that the biologists use. Also if you start off with "I saw a hybrid can I shoot it?" You have taken the high ground from them. If they say no then you ask when are you coming out to check it out. If they say yes, pull out your note book write it down and ask if they will sign it. This puts more pressure on them to check out good sightings. However refrain from reporting bad sightings. This wastes their time and makes it harder for the next guy with a good report to get taken seriously.
Post by: KFhunter on January 19, 2013, 10:18:58 AM
I'd like to visit with you and learn this bag n tag of scat, I did take some pictures earlier this winter from wolves right near the McIrvins summer grazing lands.
I think the cattle will be hit hard again this year, for sure!
Post by: waterdoctor on January 19, 2013, 10:35:19 AM
As to the cattle getting hit we will see. During rifle season I did not see much elk sign. Cow / calf track and one place where one was headed into the dark timber. I am not the best elk hunter but I have fun.
Post by: buckfvr on January 19, 2013, 10:43:47 AM
And to think WDFW sold their elk meeting as a way to create more opportunity for hunters because they asked for a better elk experience in the n.e. .... when in actuallity it amounts to an extra handfull of cows/calves for the wolves.
What needs to happen is all those people who signed petitions supporting wolves, and those groups that support them, need to foot the bill for wolf management in its entirety. Stop taking our monies for wolves, and make those who desire them pay for them. Sell them wolf permits @ 40$ each, and then send overages, like cattle bills and helicopter bills to the pro wolf conservation groups. Its time they pay for their impact on WDFW, and its time our deer/elk/bear/turkey/moose and what have you dollars stop funding wolves.
Fair is fair.......they are getting their cake at our expense,.
Post by: mfswallace on January 19, 2013, 10:45:14 AM
KF, it's nice to see we can disagree on something's but respect each other's passion as hunters/outdoorsmen to find some common ground.
Post by: waterdoctor on January 19, 2013, 10:58:54 AM
The State will remain pessimistic in order to stay their course of not ever wanting to delist, and NEVER allow hunting.
And to think WDFW sold their elk meeting as a way to create more opportunity for hunters because they asked for a better elk experience in the n.e. .... when in actuallity it amounts to an extra handfull of cows/calves for the wolves.
What needs to happen is all those people who signed petitions supporting wolves, and those groups that support them, need to foot the bill for wolf management in its entirety. Stop taking our monies for wolves, and make those who desire them pay for them. Sell them wolf permits @ 40$ each, and then send overages, like cattle bills and helicopter bills to the pro wolf conservation groups. Its time they pay for their impact on WDFW, and its time our deer/elk/bear/turkey/moose and what have you dollars stop funding wolves.
Fair is fair.......they are getting their cake at our expense,.
What I am thinking is to have go solid documentation that shows the packs have reached the goal in the management plan. At that point people with skin in the game will have ammo to taken them to court to get the de-listing.
As to the WL's paying their share that will be an uphill battle.
The way to attack the wolf problem is two fold IMO. One is documentation of the packs and get them de-listed. The other is that the wolf management plan did not deal well with the impact of the wolves on other endangered predators. The highest profile one is the Grizzlies. There were four of them that fish and wildlife were watching up in the wedge this summer. A boar a sow and two cubs. I do not know if this had an impact on the removal of the wedge pack behind the curtain our not. However a suit or petition to de-list in the east part of the state due to impact on the Grizzlies might just work.
Post by: waterdoctor on January 19, 2013, 11:00:11 AM
Thanks for the beta! Sure would b nice to have this and maybe some other presentations/activities/learning opportunities happen at the spring Hunt-WA get together???
KF, it's nice to see we can disagree on something's but respect each other's passion as hunters/outdoorsmen to find some common ground.
When is the spring get together?
Post by: KFhunter on January 19, 2013, 11:20:23 AM
The State will remain pessimistic in order to stay their course of not ever wanting to delist, and NEVER allow hunting.
And to think WDFW sold their elk meeting as a way to create more opportunity for hunters because they asked for a better elk experience in the n.e. .... when in actuallity it amounts to an extra handfull of cows/calves for the wolves.
What needs to happen is all those people who signed petitions supporting wolves, and those groups that support them, need to foot the bill for wolf management in its entirety. Stop taking our monies for wolves, and make those who desire them pay for them. Sell them wolf permits @ 40$ each, and then send overages, like cattle bills and helicopter bills to the pro wolf conservation groups. Its time they pay for their impact on WDFW, and its time our deer/elk/bear/turkey/moose and what have you dollars stop funding wolves.
Fair is fair.......they are getting their cake at our expense,.
What I am thinking is to have go solid documentation that shows the packs have reached the goal in the management plan. At that point people with skin in the game will have ammo to taken them to court to get the de-listing.
As to the WL's paying their share that will be an uphill battle.
The way to attack the wolf problem is two fold IMO. One is documentation of the packs and get them de-listed. The other is that the wolf management plan did not deal well with the impact of the wolves on other endangered predators. The highest profile one is the Grizzlies. There were four of them that fish and wildlife were watching up in the wedge this summer. A boar a sow and two cubs. I do not know if this had an impact on the removal of the wedge pack behind the curtain our not. However a suit or petition to de-list in the east part of the state due to impact on the Grizzlies might just work.
Have the mountain caribou been written off? I know it was a big deal a few years back and they got some decent snowmobiling areas closed down in their name. Same on the BC side of the line they closed a lot of prime sledding area for their recovery.
Post by: KFhunter on January 19, 2013, 11:21:48 AM
Thanks for the beta! Sure would b nice to have this and maybe some other presentations/activities/learning opportunities happen at the spring Hunt-WA get together???
KF, it's nice to see we can disagree on something's but respect each other's passion as hunters/outdoorsmen to find some common ground.
Water under the bridge :tup:
See my sig line.
Post by: NWBREW on January 19, 2013, 11:24:46 AM
5 black wolves were spotted near deep lake boundary road a few miles east of Northport WA chasing a few Elk yesterday- this from a person I know and trust but there is no evidence other than hearsay.
That is right by my place. I do not doubt it but if your sources name is Richard not sure how much I would trust it. I have trailcams out on my place...no wolves yet but will post when I have some. Did hear wolf howls up Cedar Creek last Nov. though.
Post by: waterdoctor on January 19, 2013, 11:33:53 AM
Have the mountain caribou been written off? I know it was a big deal a few years back and they got some decent snowmobiling areas closed down in their name. Same on the BC side of the line they closed a lot of prime sledding area for their recovery.
I think that the state would contend that the Mountain Caribou were covered under the undulate provisions of the management plan. If a person is going to make a case for the caribou then he should always refer to them as the Mountain Reindeer. Reindeer plays much better with the Bambi folks than caribou.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on January 19, 2013, 11:42:48 AM
Post by: JLS on January 19, 2013, 11:52:14 AM
The State will remain pessimistic in order to stay their course of not ever wanting to delist, and NEVER allow hunting.
And to think WDFW sold their elk meeting as a way to create more opportunity for hunters because they asked for a better elk experience in the n.e. .... when in actuallity it amounts to an extra handfull of cows/calves for the wolves.
What needs to happen is all those people who signed petitions supporting wolves, and those groups that support them, need to foot the bill for wolf management in its entirety. Stop taking our monies for wolves, and make those who desire them pay for them. Sell them wolf permits @ 40$ each, and then send overages, like cattle bills and helicopter bills to the pro wolf conservation groups. Its time they pay for their impact on WDFW, and its time our deer/elk/bear/turkey/moose and what have you dollars stop funding wolves.
Fair is fair.......they are getting their cake at our expense,.
WDFW is not using license dollars to fund wolf management. That said, you are entirely correct in that the wolves are eating cake at the sportmen's expense. Never once in the entire reintroduction process have the wolf supporters stepped up to the plate and purchased big game winter ranges or purchased conservation easements to improve winter range for ungulates. That has and will always be my #1 beef with this program. The abundance of deer and elk was paid for through through years of PR funds and sportsman's dollars.
Post by: waterdoctor on January 19, 2013, 11:52:40 AM
Post by: buckfvr on January 19, 2013, 12:03:46 PM
The State will remain pessimistic in order to stay their course of not ever wanting to delist, and NEVER allow hunting.
And to think WDFW sold their elk meeting as a way to create more opportunity for hunters because they asked for a better elk experience in the n.e. .... when in actuallity it amounts to an extra handfull of cows/calves for the wolves.
What needs to happen is all those people who signed petitions supporting wolves, and those groups that support them, need to foot the bill for wolf management in its entirety. Stop taking our monies for wolves, and make those who desire them pay for them. Sell them wolf permits @ 40$ each, and then send overages, like cattle bills and helicopter bills to the pro wolf conservation groups. Its time they pay for their impact on WDFW, and its time our deer/elk/bear/turkey/moose and what have you dollars stop funding wolves.
Fair is fair.......they are getting their cake at our expense,.
WDFW is not using license dollars to fund wolf management. That said, you are entirely correct in that the wolves are eating cake at the sportmen's expense. Never once in the entire reintroduction process have the wolf supporters stepped up to the plate and purchased big game winter ranges or purchased conservation easements to improve winter range for ungulates. That has and will always be my #1 beef with this program. The abundance of deer and elk was paid for through through years of PR funds and sportsman's dollars.
SO then, what monies IS paying for all the attention being rendered by WDFW, and how is this money kept seperate from license/tag/permit monies Who then foots the bill for stock depredation and helicopters/shooters/trappers ??????
Post by: waterdoctor on January 21, 2013, 09:32:28 AM
It looks like WDFW is asking for one staff member for conflict management and funding for one person to spend about 60% if their time on coordination of the wolf reports. They want to pay for the coordinator with a special Washington license plate with wolves on it.
Unless there are special allocations from the feds or at the state level for specific funds to go to the wolf management program it looks to me that you both are right. All the money goes into one pot and they pay for projects out of it.
This is why I think that it is important to get the information in a solid format to the state so we can get this things de-listed. July 19th we had a pack in our drive way howling at the house. They were not afraid of us and wanted to kill my Airedale. These wolves are not afraid of people and that is a very bad mix. There are kids that stand out on Pierre lake road in the mornings waiting for the school bus that one day the wolves are going to take down.
Post by: mfswallace on January 21, 2013, 09:51:11 AM
1.6 people for the entire state and all/any wolf data collecting/conflict resolutions??
How stupid are these elected officials? :bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: Ridgeratt on January 21, 2013, 03:25:30 PM
Any one who wants to get together the 26th or 27th of march in the wedge PM me and we will get it set up.
Who knows!! Maybe I will play also.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on January 21, 2013, 03:42:41 PM
Any one who wants to get together the 26th or 27th of march in the wedge PM me and we will get it set up.
Who knows!! Maybe I will play also.
I'm gonna do it Mr. "P" if it works out for me. Sounds like fun and good experience to learn sumpin'.
Post by: Humptulips on January 21, 2013, 08:12:38 PM
The State will remain pessimistic in order to stay their course of not ever wanting to delist, and NEVER allow hunting.
And to think WDFW sold their elk meeting as a way to create more opportunity for hunters because they asked for a better elk experience in the n.e. .... when in actuallity it amounts to an extra handfull of cows/calves for the wolves.
What needs to happen is all those people who signed petitions supporting wolves, and those groups that support them, need to foot the bill for wolf management in its entirety. Stop taking our monies for wolves, and make those who desire them pay for them. Sell them wolf permits @ 40$ each, and then send overages, like cattle bills and helicopter bills to the pro wolf conservation groups. Its time they pay for their impact on WDFW, and its time our deer/elk/bear/turkey/moose and what have you dollars stop funding wolves.
Fair is fair.......they are getting their cake at our expense,.
WDFW is not using license dollars to fund wolf management. That said, you are entirely correct in that the wolves are eating cake at the sportmen's expense. Never once in the entire reintroduction process have the wolf supporters stepped up to the plate and purchased big game winter ranges or purchased conservation easements to improve winter range for ungulates. That has and will always be my #1 beef with this program. The abundance of deer and elk was paid for through through years of PR funds and sportsman's dollars.
I think this is not correct. Look at this page, http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01344/wdfw01344.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01344/wdfw01344.pdf)
The way I read this the bulk of the money going into Endangered Species recovery comes from the State Wildlife Account. This is made up of license revenue. Wolves would come under Endangered Species recovery.
It would seem all of the general fund money goes into fisheries.
I also believe the federal money comes in the form of grants generated from Pittman Robertson and Dingell Johnson funds which are basically generated by us.
I seem to remember the Legislature allocating money for wolf depredation funding to assist ranchers. I do not think any money was dedicated to wolf management.
Tell me where I am wrong.
Post by: JLS on January 21, 2013, 08:31:27 PM
Post by: Humptulips on January 21, 2013, 09:13:24 PM
I'm going by what Donny Martorello said at the latest round of wolf meetings. He distinctly said no license dollars are paying for wolf management.
The page I posted seems to say differently.
I will admit the way things are all lumped together it is impossible to pull out any numbers on wolf management. One thing for sure it is not coming from General Fund monies, possibly from the Feds but that in a round about way comes from us.
Here's a page that shows $150,000 in expenditures from the State Wildlife Account for wolf monitoring.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/budget/2012_supp_operating/af-wolf_population_monitoring.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/budget/2012_supp_operating/af-wolf_population_monitoring.pdf)
It just seems I don't find monies dedicated to wolf management. That is the only way one could be sure nothing came from licenses. Mixing it all together and then drawing out of the common pot doesn't seem like a very good accounting process if you claim none comes from licenses.