Post by: Okano-gun on April 02, 2013, 07:57:30 PM
Post by: KFhunter on April 02, 2013, 10:06:46 PM
I set a mean snare ;)
Post by: huntnphool on April 02, 2013, 10:29:28 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 02, 2013, 10:37:39 PM
Quote
Duties:
Each position reports to the Carnivore Section Manager and serves as a Wolf Biologist 1 and is almost entirely dedicated to capturing and monitoring wolves.
Primary duties of Wolf Biologist 1 include:
Deploys and monitors trail cameras to detect wolf presence in remote areas of Washington, Provides ground reconnaissance to detect and/or confirm wolf presence and breeding status, Follows up on internal/external wolf sighting reports to validate the presence of wolves, Capture, immobilize, and mark wolves
Post by: KFhunter on April 02, 2013, 10:42:51 PM
hunters need not apply - all applicants will be check for WILD ID #'s. Additional prefrence points awarded for 5 consecutive years of WWF, Defenders of Wildlife or Howling for Justice paid membership (must supply certification or wolf adoption papers with application for credit). ranchers or ranch hand need not apply - if you've ever worked on or for a cattle ranch do not apply
Post by: 6x6in6 on April 02, 2013, 10:47:38 PM
did you see the fine print :yike::chuckle:
hunters need not apply - all applicants will be check for WILD ID #'s. Additional prefrence points awarded for 5 consecutive years of WWF, Defenders of Wildlife or Howling for Justice paid membership (must supply certification or wolf adoption papers with application for credit). ranchers or ranch hand need not apply - if you've ever worked on or for a cattle ranch do not apply
Wouldn't surprise me that a Wild ID would result in an auto DQ though.
Post by: NoImpactNoIdea on April 02, 2013, 11:46:36 PM
did you see the fine print :yike:
hunters need not apply - all applicants will be check for WILD ID #'s. Additional prefrence points awarded for 5 consecutive years of WWF, Defenders of Wildlife or Howling for Justice paid membership (must supply certification or wolf adoption papers with application for credit). ranchers or ranch hand need not apply - if you've ever worked on or for a cattle ranch do not apply
They dont want people that actually want to catch them...
Post by: Curly on April 03, 2013, 01:12:07 PM
Min qual's include:
An associate’s degree in fisheries, wildlife management, natural resource science, or environmental science
AND
A minimum of 6 months professional field or research experience with trapping, immobilizing, radio-collaring, and studying carnivores.
Post by: raydog on April 03, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
Post by: uplandhunter870 on April 03, 2013, 02:56:22 PM
besides its only a 6 month job and only pays OK money. its more a foot in the door position for someone wanting to make a career with DFW
Post by: bobcat on April 03, 2013, 03:04:15 PM
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
Post by: uplandhunter870 on April 03, 2013, 04:06:37 PM
It would be a great "foot in the door" type of job. Not only that, but you'd be getting paid to have fun. It would be like getting paid to go hunting.
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
it would be a great opprotunity, politics aside i would not mind making a career out of dfw, and yeah it would be awesome to get paid to do catch and release hunting all summer long. yeah i bet they get a couple hundred apps the position is taking apps until the 10th im kind of hoping that my background in GIS and GPS gains me a few ladder rungs but i got a feeling that cover letter thing is going to be the death of my application. outdoor skills are pretty easily taught compared to data analysis, i already know how to hunt and track animals (decently) learning to shoot a tranq gun or set a trap wouldnt be all that difficult.
Post by: jackelope on April 03, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 03, 2013, 05:06:29 PM
Post by: Curly on April 03, 2013, 05:06:56 PM
If I were recently out of college with the right degree, I'd be all over that job. I imagine it would lead to better paying permanent jobs in wildlife management.
Post by: Curly on April 03, 2013, 05:09:23 PM
Post by: madmack76 on April 03, 2013, 05:43:51 PM
Post by: snowpack on April 03, 2013, 05:59:03 PM
On another note, I'm not sure why they think they need someone with a college degree in wildlife. Lots of hunters out there that would have all those skills, but no degree in those fields. I guess they have to thin the applicants out somehow.they have been exposed to a few years of utlra-liberal/lefty/communist professors convincing them that man is not natural and is a big meany that should feel guilty for what has been done to mother earth and the wolf god.
Post by: wolfbait on April 03, 2013, 06:22:46 PM
I try to keep as much emotion as I can out of everything that I post, But I wished there was one I could post that Said *censored* you WDFW, you have become game destoyers!
Post by: villageidiot on April 03, 2013, 06:29:12 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 03, 2013, 06:31:36 PM
If this is true that they don't want hunters or ranchers they for sure do not want to catch wolves. Ranchers have carried on from g eneration to generation the skills of trapping and can tell the size of a coyote by his track and whether it's running or walking. Many ranchers have dealt with the most stealthy coyotes and consider it a challenge when they can't catch one. Ranchers can catch wolves but if you don't want to catch any then eliminate them and the hunters. I suspect they are afraid the ranchers and hunters will not report their catches. Possibly true but they can catch wolves. There is a chance :chuckle: they are doing it anyways. :chuckle: :chuckle:
It was a joke. Really.
Post by: wolfbait on April 03, 2013, 06:47:20 PM
If this is true that they don't want hunters or ranchers they for sure do not want to catch wolves. Ranchers have carried on from g eneration to generation the skills of trapping and can tell the size of a coyote by his track and whether it's running or walking. Many ranchers have dealt with the most stealthy coyotes and consider it a challenge when they can't catch one. Ranchers can catch wolves but if you don't want to catch any then eliminate them and the hunters. I suspect they are afraid the ranchers and hunters will not report their catches. Possibly true but they can catch wolves. There is a chance :chuckle: they are doing it anyways. :chuckle: :chuckle:
It was a joke. Really.
Not too funny now jack< back in 09 and 2010, Before the wolf plan came out you were trying to calm everyone down. Just wait for delisting you said. How's that working?
I know "your mom or your nephew" owns cows, and you don't contrack with WDFW. ;)
Post by: bobcat on April 03, 2013, 06:54:27 PM
did you see the fine print :yike:
hunters need not apply - all applicants will be check for WILD ID #'s. Additional prefrence points awarded for 5 consecutive years of WWF, Defenders of Wildlife or Howling for Justice paid membership (must supply certification or wolf adoption papers with application for credit). ranchers or ranch hand need not apply - if you've ever worked on or for a cattle ranch do not apply
This post was the "joke" for those who didn't catch it. :rolleyes:
Need I say it again? The above post is fictional.
Post by: wolfbait on April 03, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
If this is true that they don't want hunters or ranchers they for sure do not want to catch wolves. Ranchers have carried on from g eneration to generation the skills of trapping and can tell the size of a coyote by his track and whether it's running or walking. Many ranchers have dealt with the most stealthy coyotes and consider it a challenge when they can't catch one. Ranchers can catch wolves but if you don't want to catch any then eliminate them and the hunters. I suspect they are afraid the ranchers and hunters will not report their catches. Possibly true but they can catch wolves. There is a chance :chuckle: they are doing it anyways. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Doesn't matter if it was a joke or not Bobcat the facts are still the same.. ;)
It was a joke. Really.
Not too funny now jack< back in 09 and 2010, Before the wolf plan came out you were trying to calm everyone down. Just wait for delisting you said. How's that working?
I know "your mom or your nephew" owns cows, and you don't contrack with WDFW. ;)
Post by: jackelope on April 03, 2013, 07:37:57 PM
Nobody in my family has cattle either. Never said that. Again, get your facts, or accusations, or whatever it is you think you've got on me straight.
If you want to play that game...we can play. You said you have all this proof that would come out in time of this, that and the other thing. Where is it? You've been saying the same thing for 4 years. Where is this amazing proof that is going to open all of our eyes, wolfbait? 4 years I've been waiting. I'm 99% positive I will never see your proof.
Post by: Humptulips on April 03, 2013, 11:10:44 PM
It would be a great "foot in the door" type of job. Not only that, but you'd be getting paid to have fun. It would be like getting paid to go hunting.
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
it would be a great opprotunity, politics aside i would not mind making a career out of dfw, and yeah it would be awesome to get paid to do catch and release hunting all summer long. yeah i bet they get a couple hundred apps the position is taking apps until the 10th im kind of hoping that my background in GIS and GPS gains me a few ladder rungs but i got a feeling that cover letter thing is going to be the death of my application. outdoor skills are pretty easily taught compared to data analysis, i already know how to hunt and track animals (decently) learning to shoot a tranq gun or set a trap wouldnt be all that difficult.
There's the problem right there. See this all the time "Anybody can set a trap, easy peasy" Always voiced by someone that has never trapped.
Trapping wolves especially is not easy. There are very few that are actually good at it and to start from scratch it'll probably take longer to get good at it then to get your Phd in wolfology at Evergreen.
Post by: wolfbait on April 04, 2013, 04:02:51 AM
I never said "wait for delisting". I may have said -work towards delisting- but I never said wait for delisting. Get your facts straight.
Nobody in my family has cattle either. Never said that. Again, get your facts, or accusations, or whatever it is you think you've got on me straight.
If you want to play that game...we can play. You said you have all this proof that would come out in time of this, that and the other thing. Where is it? You've been saying the same thing for 4 years. Where is this amazing proof that is going to open all of our eyes, wolfbait? 4 years I've been waiting. I'm 99% positive I will never see your proof.
Thats the difference between you and I jack, I have never considered the wolf issue a game. There is one wolf release that WDFW should have passed on. Remember back in 2010, I said what will WDFW have to say when in a couple of years WA has wolves popping out all over? What would be their responce? Well its the same now as it was then, just more cover up and wait.
I wonder if WDFW will say they had to release wolves in WA? Like Ed bangs did in Idaho? All the wolf lies that have been told by the USFWs, WDFW are still trying to pass out as fact to the public. I won't be surprise when the "facts" concerning WDFW hit the newspaper and I highly doubt you will either. I think there will be several who say, I knew it, or, that explains why wolves filled WA so quickly.
Have a nice day jack
Post by: jackelope on April 04, 2013, 06:00:50 AM
Post by: boneaddict on April 04, 2013, 06:12:56 AM
Post by: jackmaster on April 04, 2013, 06:41:44 AM
Post by: Dhoey07 on April 04, 2013, 07:39:09 AM
Post by: uplandhunter870 on April 04, 2013, 08:39:06 AM
It would be a great "foot in the door" type of job. Not only that, but you'd be getting paid to have fun. It would be like getting paid to go hunting.
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
it would be a great opprotunity, politics aside i would not mind making a career out of dfw, and yeah it would be awesome to get paid to do catch and release hunting all summer long. yeah i bet they get a couple hundred apps the position is taking apps until the 10th im kind of hoping that my background in GIS and GPS gains me a few ladder rungs but i got a feeling that cover letter thing is going to be the death of my application. outdoor skills are pretty easily taught compared to data analysis, i already know how to hunt and track animals (decently) learning to shoot a tranq gun or set a trap wouldnt be all that difficult.
There's the problem right there. See this all the time "Anybody can set a trap, easy peasy" Always voiced by someone that has never trapped.
Trapping wolves especially is not easy. There are very few that are actually good at it and to start from scratch it'll probably take longer to get good at it then to get your Phd in wolfology at Evergreen.
so enlighten me how much more difficult setting a trap is than earning a BS degree. trapping anything is not easy (ever been out played by mice around the house and have the peanut butter stolen but no dead mouse?) and how is a guy supposed to learn how to trap wolves when wolves are a federally protected and listed species :dunno: Learning how to trap the wolves is part of on the job training and is the easy thing to learn how to do, yeah successfully capturing a wolf alive and unharmed may be difficult but learning how to do so isnt all that difficult especially for anyone that has any decent amount of experience in the outdoors. if my old man could teach himself how to trap when he was a teenager by reading books and magazines like fur fish and game, im sure i could do the exact same. have you meet some of the people the state hires for jobs like this? not exactly Einstein like rocket scientists
Post by: Northway on April 04, 2013, 08:42:42 AM
The degree thing they'll probably stick to, but there's folks that work with carnivores who have probably never used a leg-hold trap before.
I'm curious about whether wildlife services requires degrees for their wolf trappers in the NRM or Great Lakes. If they do, then the WDFW could easily try and snag a couple of those folks.
Post by: Northway on April 04, 2013, 08:45:27 AM
It would be a great "foot in the door" type of job. Not only that, but you'd be getting paid to have fun. It would be like getting paid to go hunting.
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
it would be a great opprotunity, politics aside i would not mind making a career out of dfw, and yeah it would be awesome to get paid to do catch and release hunting all summer long. yeah i bet they get a couple hundred apps the position is taking apps until the 10th im kind of hoping that my background in GIS and GPS gains me a few ladder rungs but i got a feeling that cover letter thing is going to be the death of my application. outdoor skills are pretty easily taught compared to data analysis, i already know how to hunt and track animals (decently) learning to shoot a tranq gun or set a trap wouldnt be all that difficult.
There's the problem right there. See this all the time "Anybody can set a trap, easy peasy" Always voiced by someone that has never trapped.
Trapping wolves especially is not easy. There are very few that are actually good at it and to start from scratch it'll probably take longer to get good at it then to get your Phd in wolfology at Evergreen.
To completely different things, but it's a complete pain even learning how to consistently trap feral cats! I thought it would be a walk in the park, but I really had to tinker with the trap quite a bit; and by that time the cat(s) get wise to what you are trying to do.
Post by: Houndhunter on April 04, 2013, 10:16:40 AM
Post by: iusmc2002 on April 04, 2013, 10:42:25 AM
did you see the fine print :yike:
hunters need not apply - all applicants will be check for WILD ID #'s. Additional prefrence points awarded for 5 consecutive years of WWF, Defenders of Wildlife or Howling for Justice paid membership (must supply certification or wolf adoption papers with application for credit). ranchers or ranch hand need not apply - if you've ever worked on or for a cattle ranch do not apply
I'm such a putz. I read that and was thinking "WTF?!" and then proceeded to look for that fine print.... :bash:
Post by: uplandhunter870 on April 04, 2013, 10:58:08 AM
You shouldn't need a degree to do this job, there lies the problem. O well, maybe they'll hire some good guys but I have a feeling they won't :twocents:
you are not required to have a degree. the job posting says HS/GED or Associates with 1 year experience trapping wolves OR a bachelors with 6 months experience.
all having a degree does is cut down the required amount of field experience
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2013, 11:03:17 AM
Post by: uplandhunter870 on April 04, 2013, 11:24:55 AM
The way it reads is that an applicant is required to have: 1) HS degree or GED and 2) Associates Degree in wildlife or fisheries and 3) 6 mo's min experience in trapping
my bad, thanks for the correction Curly
Post by: Curly on April 04, 2013, 11:28:13 AM
The way it reads is that an applicant is required to have: 1) HS degree or GED and 2) Associates Degree in wildlife or fisheries and 3) 6 mo's min experience in trapping
my bad, thanks for the correction Curly
No problem. I still think it is good that you applied even if you don't meet all their minimum quals. You never know how many applicants they will get and their qualifications are. You at least have a shot if you apply. I hope you get it. :tup:
Post by: Humptulips on April 04, 2013, 12:57:11 PM
It would be a great "foot in the door" type of job. Not only that, but you'd be getting paid to have fun. It would be like getting paid to go hunting.
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
it would be a great opprotunity, politics aside i would not mind making a career out of dfw, and yeah it would be awesome to get paid to do catch and release hunting all summer long. yeah i bet they get a couple hundred apps the position is taking apps until the 10th im kind of hoping that my background in GIS and GPS gains me a few ladder rungs but i got a feeling that cover letter thing is going to be the death of my application. outdoor skills are pretty easily taught compared to data analysis, i already know how to hunt and track animals (decently) learning to shoot a tranq gun or set a trap wouldnt be all that difficult.
There's the problem right there. See this all the time "Anybody can set a trap, easy peasy" Always voiced by someone that has never trapped.
Trapping wolves especially is not easy. There are very few that are actually good at it and to start from scratch it'll probably take longer to get good at it then to get your Phd in wolfology at Evergreen.
so enlighten me how much more difficult setting a trap is than earning a BS degree. trapping anything is not easy (ever been out played by mice around the house and have the peanut butter stolen but no dead mouse?) and how is a guy supposed to learn how to trap wolves when wolves are a federally protected and listed species :dunno: Learning how to trap the wolves is part of on the job training and is the easy thing to learn how to do, yeah successfully capturing a wolf alive and unharmed may be difficult but learning how to do so isnt all that difficult especially for anyone that has any decent amount of experience in the outdoors. if my old man could teach himself how to trap when he was a teenager by reading books and magazines like fur fish and game, im sure i could do the exact same. have you meet some of the people the state hires for jobs like this? not exactly Einstein like rocket scientists
To begin with wolves are not a federally listed species through out their range. If you have some experience trapping them in AK, ID or MT so much the better but your attitude implies I'll just go out and learn. That will take time and in the meantime you are not going to be catching wolves if that is your job. In fact you will probably be educating them about traps which will make it all the more difficult.
Go take some, one on one training in the field from an experienced wolf trapper but don't think for one minute that qualifies you as a wolf trapper. Time and experience might make you a good one.
There is a big difference between trapping a mouse or beaver and muskrats or even coyotes and going after wolves.
Coyotes are generally considered to be the toughest to trap in the lower 48 and there are a ton of guys chasing them but there are damn few ever get to be really good at it. Wolves are a step up from there.
You'll learn but the first lesson will be how little you know.
Post by: uplandhunter870 on April 04, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
I realize my post probably came off as sounding flippant and arrogant that was not my intention and i apologize. but what irritates me the most with trying to find a "real" job as a soon to be fresh graduate is that there was a time where every member of this site and every person in society knew absolutely nothing about their current profession and the only way they learned what they know now is someone sometime in their lives took a chance on them and showed them the ropes and taught them what they knew, thus making them competent at their trade. and these days employers seem to have forgotten that completely and expect you to fill each and every qualification at or above their stated level, thus making finding a "real" job G** d**n impossible. this job is for a Biologist 1 thats an entry level biologist, not a seasoned veteran.
youre absolute correct not all wolves are listed by the feds, alaska certainly not and ID and MT are only relatively recent de-listings but as for washington they still are a federally listed species and aside from state and federal agencies no one is allowed to trap them thus as someone that grew up in washington how are you supposed to get experience trapping wolves, legally? put your life on hold and move to a state that allows the legal trapping of wolves, live there for the required time to become a resident and then hope to find someone willing to take a newbie under their wing for a season or two just so you can meet all the requirements for a 6 month job where at most youll make 22k before taxes and do this of course after youve completed and associates program at the minimum?
I am trying my God's honest to be a contributing member of society and applied for a job that i meet most of the qualifications, no one that applies for jobs meets every qualification to the T, although unfortunately for me and possibly fortunately for you and everyone else that believes if you dont meet every single listed qualification a person should not be considered for a position i doubt we will have to worry about my inadequacies of trapping wolves because if you read the job announcement it pretty well sounds like whom ever wrote it already has their two candidates in mind. i mean honestly who has a HS degree/GED and Assoc. degree and 6 months experience trapping wolves? oh yeah, whom ever the hiring authority for the position is trying to throw a bone to. the good ole boy system isnt dead its just less blatant and more subtle.
Post by: KFhunter on April 04, 2013, 10:52:10 PM
did you see the fine print :yike:
hunters need not apply - all applicants will be check for WILD ID #'s. Additional prefrence points awarded for 5 consecutive years of WWF, Defenders of Wildlife or Howling for Justice paid membership (must supply certification or wolf adoption papers with application for credit). ranchers or ranch hand need not apply - if you've ever worked on or for a cattle ranch do not apply
I'm such a putz. I read that and was thinking "WTF?!" and then proceeded to look for that fine print.... :bash:
oops - sorry about that :chuckle:
Yes it was a joke and my humor is dry and at times, problematic.
I thought the spelling errors would tip people off that it was a joke 8)
Post by: JLS on April 04, 2013, 11:02:02 PM
I am trying my God's honest to be a contributing member of society and applied for a job that i meet most of the qualifications, no one that applies for jobs meets every qualification to the T, although unfortunately for me and possibly fortunately for you and everyone else that believes if you dont meet every single listed qualification a person should not be considered for a position i doubt we will have to worry about my inadequacies of trapping wolves because if you read the job announcement it pretty well sounds like whom ever wrote it already has their two candidates in mind. i mean honestly who has a HS degree/GED and Assoc. degree and 6 months experience trapping wolves? oh yeah, whom ever the hiring authority for the position is trying to throw a bone to. the good ole boy system isnt dead its just less blatant and more subtle.
And sometimes the "good ole boy system" rewards people that have paid their dues, working a job that they were very much overqualified for but they had to take as an entry level position. I think many of us have applied for positions that were written with someone specifically in mind. If you're good enough, you can still get one of those. A word to the wise though, in a competitive job market you absolutely CANNOT leave out stuff as simple as a cover letter. Your application packet should absolutely wow the heck out of the screening committee. If it doesn't, you already lost your first chance to get to the front of the pack.
Good luck!
Post by: KFhunter on April 04, 2013, 11:05:32 PM
It would be a great "foot in the door" type of job. Not only that, but you'd be getting paid to have fun. It would be like getting paid to go hunting.
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
it would be a great opprotunity, politics aside i would not mind making a career out of dfw, and yeah it would be awesome to get paid to do catch and release hunting all summer long. yeah i bet they get a couple hundred apps the position is taking apps until the 10th im kind of hoping that my background in GIS and GPS gains me a few ladder rungs but i got a feeling that cover letter thing is going to be the death of my application. outdoor skills are pretty easily taught compared to data analysis, i already know how to hunt and track animals (decently) learning to shoot a tranq gun or set a trap wouldnt be all that difficult.
There's the problem right there. See this all the time "Anybody can set a trap, easy peasy" Always voiced by someone that has never trapped.
Trapping wolves especially is not easy. There are very few that are actually good at it and to start from scratch it'll probably take longer to get good at it then to get your Phd in wolfology at Evergreen.
so enlighten me how much more difficult setting a trap is than earning a BS degree. trapping anything is not easy (ever been out played by mice around the house and have the peanut butter stolen but no dead mouse?) and how is a guy supposed to learn how to trap wolves when wolves are a federally protected and listed species :dunno: Learning how to trap the wolves is part of on the job training and is the easy thing to learn how to do, yeah successfully capturing a wolf alive and unharmed may be difficult but learning how to do so isnt all that difficult especially for anyone that has any decent amount of experience in the outdoors. if my old man could teach himself how to trap when he was a teenager by reading books and magazines like fur fish and game, im sure i could do the exact same. have you meet some of the people the state hires for jobs like this? not exactly Einstein like rocket scientists
To begin with wolves are not a federally listed species through out their range. If you have some experience trapping them in AK, ID or MT so much the better but your attitude implies I'll just go out and learn. That will take time and in the meantime you are not going to be catching wolves if that is your job. In fact you will probably be educating them about traps which will make it all the more difficult.
Go take some, one on one training in the field from an experienced wolf trapper but don't think for one minute that qualifies you as a wolf trapper. Time and experience might make you a good one.
There is a big difference between trapping a mouse or beaver and muskrats or even coyotes and going after wolves.
Coyotes are generally considered to be the toughest to trap in the lower 48 and there are a ton of guys chasing them but there are damn few ever get to be really good at it. Wolves are a step up from there.
You'll learn but the first lesson will be how little you know.
I think with tracking collars (enable patterning) and trapping near denning sites early summer pretty much anyone could do it with basic trapping knowledge :twocents:
No it wouldn't make a good "fair chase" trapper, but it'd suffice for WDFW's purpose.
Post by: AspenBud on April 05, 2013, 06:49:30 AM
The way it reads is that an applicant is required to have: 1) HS degree or GED and 2) Associates Degree in wildlife or fisheries and 3) 6 mo's min experience in trapping
my bad, thanks for the correction Curly
No problem. I still think it is good that you applied even if you don't meet all their minimum quals. You never know how many applicants they will get and their qualifications are. You at least have a shot if you apply. I hope you get it. :tup:
:yeah:
State and higher education job postings are usually written by a bureaucrat who really doesn't know what they are looking for so they ask for the moon.
Apply to the job. If they need someone bad enough they will call.
Post by: danderson on April 05, 2013, 07:17:32 AM
Post by: Humptulips on April 05, 2013, 11:22:53 AM
It would be a great "foot in the door" type of job. Not only that, but you'd be getting paid to have fun. It would be like getting paid to go hunting.
I hope you at least get an interview. Unfortunately, I bet competition for the job will be fierce.
it would be a great opprotunity, politics aside i would not mind making a career out of dfw, and yeah it would be awesome to get paid to do catch and release hunting all summer long. yeah i bet they get a couple hundred apps the position is taking apps until the 10th im kind of hoping that my background in GIS and GPS gains me a few ladder rungs but i got a feeling that cover letter thing is going to be the death of my application. outdoor skills are pretty easily taught compared to data analysis, i already know how to hunt and track animals (decently) learning to shoot a tranq gun or set a trap wouldnt be all that difficult.
There's the problem right there. See this all the time "Anybody can set a trap, easy peasy" Always voiced by someone that has never trapped.
Trapping wolves especially is not easy. There are very few that are actually good at it and to start from scratch it'll probably take longer to get good at it then to get your Phd in wolfology at Evergreen.
so enlighten me how much more difficult setting a trap is than earning a BS degree. trapping anything is not easy (ever been out played by mice around the house and have the peanut butter stolen but no dead mouse?) and how is a guy supposed to learn how to trap wolves when wolves are a federally protected and listed species :dunno: Learning how to trap the wolves is part of on the job training and is the easy thing to learn how to do, yeah successfully capturing a wolf alive and unharmed may be difficult but learning how to do so isnt all that difficult especially for anyone that has any decent amount of experience in the outdoors. if my old man could teach himself how to trap when he was a teenager by reading books and magazines like fur fish and game, im sure i could do the exact same. have you meet some of the people the state hires for jobs like this? not exactly Einstein like rocket scientists
To begin with wolves are not a federally listed species through out their range. If you have some experience trapping them in AK, ID or MT so much the better but your attitude implies I'll just go out and learn. That will take time and in the meantime you are not going to be catching wolves if that is your job. In fact you will probably be educating them about traps which will make it all the more difficult.
Go take some, one on one training in the field from an experienced wolf trapper but don't think for one minute that qualifies you as a wolf trapper. Time and experience might make you a good one.
There is a big difference between trapping a mouse or beaver and muskrats or even coyotes and going after wolves.
Coyotes are generally considered to be the toughest to trap in the lower 48 and there are a ton of guys chasing them but there are damn few ever get to be really good at it. Wolves are a step up from there.
You'll learn but the first lesson will be how little you know.
I think with tracking collars (enable patterning) and trapping near denning sites early summer pretty much anyone could do it with basic trapping knowledge :twocents:
No it wouldn't make a good "fair chase" trapper, but it'd suffice for WDFW's purpose.
Not even sure what a fair chase trapper is. I'm just trying to get across that trapping is not as easy as some people think. I hear it all the time about "lazy trappers" and "any one can set a trap". When in fact succesful trappers are some of the hardest working most knowledgeable people in the woods. You don't get to be a good trapper in a season or two.
Wolves are notoriously hard to trap. A trapper in AK or Canada that shows off a half dozen wolf hides in a year is looked on with admiration. These wolves in WA are going to be a lot more spread out, can't use snares and you will have people to deal with. It will not be easy and if you make a mistake and you educate the wolf you will really be playing catch up.
Sounds like trapping will be a minor part of the job and I hope they don't send someone who has never trapped before out with a dozen traps and a two day course on trapping. That will be a recipe for failure.
Post by: KFhunter on April 05, 2013, 11:29:35 AM
I simply meant it would be a whole lot easier to trap wolves if you had a live GPS map marking their locations 24/7
Post by: AspenBud on April 05, 2013, 02:32:37 PM
One of the new hires for the wolf tracking collaring, not sure what his title is, program came out of the Cat project, a cougar study that took place Kittitas County, and ended a few years ago, the study focused on locating cougars, tranquilizing them taking a tooth sample, blood, weight, vital measurements, sex, and fitting them with tracking collars, the program lasted for around 10 years and was a joint effort with Cle Elum Roslyn Middle School, 8th grade students got to take part along with a few chosen parents to participate, it showed each cats home range through gps way point marking every day or so, I'm not sure, the map provided the department with good information on how male and female cats ranges overlapped, My guess would be that wildlife heads would hire out of the many qualified folks with a proven track record with in there already existing pool of potential hires. :twocents:
This is a good point. A lot of times governmental agencies will advertise positions because they legally have to, but really already have someone in mind internally.
Post by: gaddy on April 05, 2013, 03:07:51 PM
Post by: danderson on April 05, 2013, 05:14:07 PM
Post by: Special T on April 05, 2013, 10:12:00 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 05, 2013, 10:27:30 PM
Post by: Special T on April 05, 2013, 10:41:42 PM
I like to compare the difference, however slight, from an order taker to a salesman... An Order taker, takes your info and then punches the appropriate buttons to order said merchandise. A Salesman asks questions, determines the best use and then directs you to the products that are available to fill your need.
Anyone that has been to a auto parts store that talks to an ex mechanic knows the difference. We don't need some one who WANTS to help, we need some one who ALREADY has the chops to get it done.... Even IF there is already a "Pro" on staff. :twocents:
Post by: Curly on April 06, 2013, 07:28:50 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 06, 2013, 08:25:38 AM
Or perhaps you have a degree in Wildlife Management?
Post by: JLS on April 06, 2013, 02:13:47 PM
Post by: jackelope on April 06, 2013, 02:19:04 PM
I would think that if they were "serious" about actually trapping wolves they would hire an experienced done as a consultant, to educate the wet behind the ears bios and such how to do it/ do it for them. :twocents: to me this is just a another "going through the motions" to appease the hunters. :twocents:I think his name is Carter Niemeyer....aka "wolfer".
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2013, 03:01:27 PM
If the WDFW actually has a "consultant" on staff then they really need 2 more, not 2 more bios... They need to accelerate their "documentation" of wolves not hire more people to study them. :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on April 06, 2013, 07:39:00 PM
Post by: wolfbait on April 06, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
Carter Niemeyer is probably responsible for the most wolves trapped and/or killed in the lower 48 I bet. If not the most, then close. Do you know about him, Special T?? You should go ahead and do a little googling and read up. Be careful what you wish for. I betcha he's got a degree too.
Carter Niemeyer is probably responsible for several wolf releases in Wa and OR. He is also a fraud when it comes to wolves. He would rather protect them then tell the truth, he promoted them on the lies of David Mech, remember the lies of David Meck. Jack? The lies that wolves proved he was a liar?
I would have to agree with Special T, WDFW have to advertise the job, and just like they have to have meetings across the country it's all BS. They already have someone or no one lined up for the job, perhaps either you or WAcoyote will get it. It won't go to someone who hasn't been already brainwashed.
I don't think you want us to start out recalling your famous Carter do you? :chuckle: Mech is bad enough, which camera do I lie too Mech::::::::How do you spell Fraud starting with WDFW?
Post by: jackelope on April 06, 2013, 08:53:56 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 06, 2013, 09:09:36 PM
Post by: Special T on April 06, 2013, 10:11:09 PM
I think my 1st assumption is the reason why we are at odds. Carter may have the chops for the 2nd assumption But I'm not so sure about the 1st assumption. That is even if the real goal is quick total documentation.
Many jump on Scott Fitken for his deception about the real numbers in his area. It MAY not be all his doing, it MAY be what his bosses want and he is just the face that we have for the deception we have witnessed.
So we MAY have a trapper or 2 with the chopps to catch lots of wolves, that i don't know... But what i can tell you is we DON'T have the trappers AND the honest desire to documents all the packs as quickly as possible... How can i make this statement? Experience. The WDFW has been offered help and has refused it because it was not one of their employees. When given credible sightings, as explained here and elsewhere, they have blown the observer off instead of investigating further. Photos, descriptions, exact locations weren't enough for serious follow up IF they weren't in an area that they wanted to look.
IF i was in charge of getting the wolves documented ASAP what kinds of things would i do? I would ask the public for help. I would put forth the kinds of requirements that were needed for the agencies limited resources to make investigations. I would have looked at making a sighting map for the state MUCH earlier than has happened now so that we could find wolves that were not right next to each other.. I might enlist the help of Tribes or ANY OTHER GROUP that could help in live trapping and documenting the location and kinds of wolves...
I think it is impossible to say for certain what individuals motives are, however the individuals, AND agency ACTIONS tell us alot. The actions, or lack there of does NOT point to the speedy documentation of as many wolves as possible.
Post by: wolfbait on April 06, 2013, 10:49:35 PM
Of course the WDFW has to advertise the jobs. And if they do already have people in mind for those jobs, so what? Yes, that is how the system works, sometimes. But all this talk about what they really need to do, or how they lied about this or that, is nothing but speculation. Why all the speculation from those who really have no clue about this? Seriously, if you think you can do so much better than the people currently employed by the WDFW, then why not go to work for them and prove it to us?
Speculation?
Bobcat, you are funny as hell, it appears you don't have a clue yet.
The wolves that the USFWS and WDFW released in WA will never be controlled by hunting as a big game animal. It took years of trapping, poisoning and shooting to get the wolves out in the first place.
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'if you think you can do so much better than the people currently employed by the WDFW, then why not go to work for them and prove it to us?"
I work for the game herds and livestock Bobcat, WDFW don't like the Honest part of my job>such as people calling them out on their wolf releases, lack of confirmed packs and confirmed wolf attacks, I'm quite sure I would be the last one on their list.
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As far as WDFW hiring me or anyone else except of course the all ready brainwashed there isn't a chance. The USFWS and WDFW want to keep all their little ducks lined out.
What we are hearing from WDFW is just more blow-by. The same chit just a different way
Wolf pack, BP confimations are a top down management problem-that we are working on now.
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Jack, I think I saved several of your messages from 09-10 :yike: Are you sure you don't want to change the part about me putting words in your. mouth? Or would you just rather delete the thread :chuckle:
Post by: waterdoctor on April 07, 2013, 07:00:06 AM
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2013, 07:18:56 AM
Of course the WDFW has to advertise the jobs. And if they do already have people in mind for those jobs, so what? Yes, that is how the system works, sometimes. But all this talk about what they really need to do, or how they lied about this or that, is nothing but speculation. Why all the speculation from those who really have no clue about this? Seriously, if you think you can do so much better than the people currently employed by the WDFW, then why not go to work for them and prove it to us?
Posting a job description with the new employee happens all the time. Usually the job description is tailored to the individual in mind. I've seen it happen first hand in the Public school system, so its not a stretch.
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2013, 07:30:39 AM
I was not going to post about what I know and knew about the two jobs that are posted. First off I was sent the posting from the HR person in F&W via an e-mail on the 2nd. Why? I think that they wanted me to apply. Why? Maybe my statement at the meeting the 27th was too close to the truth, I do not know. The job is a union job, so the job description and qualifications are contractual. The jobs are for only 6 months. They would like some one that knows how to trap but they want some one to spend time determining the pack locations and setting up game cams so they can get pictures of the wolf pups so that they can work within their recovery plan. If they want to get collars on the wolves my guess is that they will get Paul Frame to do it. He did trap two wolves in a day in the wedge so he must not be too bad or the wedge wolves were really dumb. If they just wanted to trap the wolves the cheapest way would be to contract with ADC, those trappers know how to trap wolves. As to us helping with the locations and number of packs. I tried to set up a little class on field documentation of tracks and other things so that the information would be defensible and of value. Well the 27th we did not have much of a turn out. No show, no hope. Also there are members of staff of F&W that have not drank the cool aid on wolves are good and fine. They get beat up by their boss's and us the public.
I agree that the employees are in a catch 22. Maybe if they spoke up in some way this problem could be resolved. While the criticism may not be entirely fair, the employees that DO NOT speak out are doing nothing to make things right. I personally understand the need to protect ones job by not making a scene, and by not standing up they ARE deserving of at least some of the negativity the WDFW gets.
If WE want to make a difference who can we go to? How do we determine who from the WDFW has drank the cool-aid? How do we know who has the influence to buck those who have not? There are members here who HAVE good info, and HAVE made it known and bet blown off.... Trust is what is lacking and as we all know it is harder to earn back than to loose in the first place.
Post by: JLS on April 07, 2013, 07:56:48 AM
All this conspiracy theory continues to perpetuated, but never substantiated. :tinfoil:
Post by: Curly on April 07, 2013, 07:56:52 AM
, ill have the BS degree in a month but dont have any experience tranq'ing wolves and think i missed the spot on the app process to put in a cover letter and didnt realize that until just now reading the pdf posted here.
Quote
Closing Date/Time: Wed. 04/10/13 11:59 PM Pacific Time
uh870, I think you should see about submitting a new application with a cover letter included this time. Since the Closing date is on Wednesday, you should be able to get that cover letter submitted in time. :tup:
BTW - UplandHunter870, I bet you have a real shot at the position since you will have a Bachelor's degree shortly. Just get that cover letter prepared and explain that you have lots of experience being in the woods and such. (It sure would be nice getting someone in there who is a hunter) :tup:
Post by: waterdoctor on April 07, 2013, 08:02:27 AM
I agree that the employees are in a catch 22. Maybe if they spoke up in some way this problem could be resolved. While the criticism may not be entirely fair, the employees that DO NOT speak out are doing nothing to make things right. I personally understand the need to protect ones job by not making a scene, and by not standing up they ARE deserving of at least some of the negativity the WDFW gets.
If WE want to make a difference who can we go to? How do we determine who from the WDFW has drank the cool-aid? How do we know who has the influence to buck those who have not? There are members here who HAVE good info, and HAVE made it known and bet blown off.... Trust is what is lacking and as we all know it is harder to earn back than to loose in the first place.
I the meeting in Colville on the 27th Dave Ware cut very one on his staff off when asked if they support the wolves.
How you find out who has not taken a drink takes time, also it will be driven by questions that they ask you. They don't trust us much ether right now. They will never make a statement that could find its way onto a site like this or the papers that could get them fired.
As to the good information, yes we know that we saw a wolf or heard one but how was it presented? how was it documented? was it something that a guy could go out on a limb with his boss and say we need to divert time, people and money to this area? That is why I am trying to get some information out to the guys here so that we can appear to have our stuff in one sock when we give the bio's a call. Based on my experience about one in 10 to 1 in 20 reports are actionable. Some are days after the fact, some have poor information on where it was (the locals know just where it is but staff working on it doesn't have a clue.), the pictures do not have time-date-location-person detailed in the picture and their is a boot or a hand in the picture for scale instead of a ruler or square that is in CM's or inches.
Post by: bobcat on April 07, 2013, 08:17:49 AM
Of course the WDFW has to advertise the jobs. And if they do already have people in mind for those jobs, so what? Yes, that is how the system works, sometimes. But all this talk about what they really need to do, or how they lied about this or that, is nothing but speculation. Why all the speculation from those who really have no clue about this? Seriously, if you think you can do so much better than the people currently employed by the WDFW, then why not go to work for them and prove it to us?
Posting a job description with the new employee happens all the time. Usually the job description is tailored to the individual in mind. I've seen it happen first hand in the Public school system, so its not a stretch.
I agree with that, and I don't believe I have said otherwise. And again, if that is the case, I don't see why that's an issue. :dunno:
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2013, 08:28:42 AM
So once again a thread boils down to accusations of lies, releases, and WDFW employees not speaking up and taking a stand. If all this expose is there in black and white, why has it not been released to us cave dwellers that are living in the dark?
All this conspiracy theory continues to perpetuated, but never substantiated. :tinfoil:
If you had some "concrete" evidence such as video and such, or other hard evidence such as a plethora of eye witnesses, or some one involved, How could you bring it out?
You could take it to the WDFW so they could do the right thing?
You could take it to the media?
You could take it to your State Rep?
Unfortunately just having good info is NOT enough Especially if the motives are suspect. Why you might ask... I would assume that If you had evidence that contradicted what the WDFW you would want to affect some real change by releasing it. Isolating the event to a single employee, or an "unfortunate event" that has already been corrected. I don't think you need to wear a :tinfoil: to run down the different options of "what ifs" in a given scenario... :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on April 07, 2013, 08:38:41 AM
Quote
If you had some "concrete" evidence such as video and such, or other hard evidence such as a plethora of eye witnesses, or some one involved, How could you bring it out?
Evidence of what?
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2013, 08:41:29 AM
Post by: villageidiot on April 07, 2013, 09:18:50 AM
Post by: wolfbait on April 07, 2013, 02:01:26 PM
I was not going to post about what I know and knew about the two jobs that are posted. First off I was sent the posting from the HR person in F&W via an e-mail on the 2nd. Why? I think that they wanted me to apply. Why? Maybe my statement at the meeting the 27th was too close to the truth, I do not know. The job is a union job, so the job description and qualifications are contractual. The jobs are for only 6 months. They would like some one that knows how to trap but they want some one to spend time determining the pack locations and setting up game cams so they can get pictures of the wolf pups so that they can work within their recovery plan. If they want to get collars on the wolves my guess is that they will get Paul Frame to do it. He did trap two wolves in a day in the wedge so he must not be too bad or the wedge wolves were really dumb. If they just wanted to trap the wolves the cheapest way would be to contract with ADC, those trappers know how to trap wolves. As to us helping with the locations and number of packs. I tried to set up a little class on field documentation of tracks and other things so that the information would be defensible and of value. Well the 27th we did not have much of a turn out. No show, no hope. Also there are members of staff of F&W that have not drank the cool aid on wolves are good and fine. They get beat up by their boss's and us the public.
"Also there are members of staff of F&W that have not drank the cool aid on wolves are good and fine. They get beat up by their boss's and us the public."
I have seen this also Waterdoctor, their are several who work for WDFW who can't tell the truth or it is their job. There have been some who went against the wishes of the USFWS and upper management and the brainwashed bio's and suffered, for just wanting to do their job.
Just like Idaho, the truth is now starting to come out, but it will still be too late for WA. These people who work for WDFW on "our side" wish for it perhaps more then we do, as they will be exonerated.
Post by: JLS on April 07, 2013, 02:06:53 PM
Just like Idaho, the truth is now starting to come out, but it will still be too late for WA. These people who work for WDFW on "our side" wish for it perhaps more then we do, as they will be exonerated.
And what is this "truth" that came out in Idaho?
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2013, 04:22:24 PM
Post by: wolfbait on April 07, 2013, 04:24:55 PM
Just like Idaho, the truth is now starting to come out, but it will still be too late for WA. These people who work for WDFW on "our side" wish for it perhaps more then we do, as they will be exonerated.
And what is this "truth" that came out in Idaho?
I guess you are new to the wolf issue JLS? It took 14 years for IDFG to finally admitt that the wolves were decimating the elk herds, it won't take 14 years for WA game herds to be in a predator pit.
I could go on but you can learn more by going back through the wolf threads here on W-H.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimage.org%2Fz30hjnci3%2FWolf_Kill_1.jpg&hash=62da9120ea801a5c542e026b17d0b8876773a97c)
http://saveelk.com/wolf_030.htm (http://saveelk.com/wolf_030.htm)
Post by: JLS on April 07, 2013, 04:49:34 PM
Just like Idaho, the truth is now starting to come out,
And what is this "truth" that came out in Idaho?
I guess you are new to the wolf issue JLS?
Nope, not new at all. Just trying to decipher what exactly you were talking about since you articulated it so well.
Post by: wolfbait on April 07, 2013, 05:21:27 PM
That they were "imported" from Canada without the proper permits, or the proper preventative measures to make sure no diseases came with them.
Correct SP-T, which means the wolves that WDFW are protecting were brought into the US illegally, there could be some lawsuits and some major wolf killing in the future.
Of course that will be after the wolves have done what they were brought in to do.
Post by: Curly on April 07, 2013, 05:28:40 PM
That they were "imported" from Canada without the proper permits, or the proper preventative measures to make sure no diseases came with them.
Correct SP-T, which means the wolves that WDFW are protecting were brought into the US illegally, there could be some lawsuits and some major wolf killing in the future.
Of course that will be after the wolves have done what they were brought in to do.
If it can be proven, why not have law suits now instead of after the wolves decimate the herds? :dunno: Makes no sense to me. ???
Post by: JLS on April 07, 2013, 05:30:59 PM
That they were "imported" from Canada without the proper permits, or the proper preventative measures to make sure no diseases came with them.
Correct SP-T, which means the wolves that WDFW are protecting were brought into the US illegally, there could be some lawsuits and some major wolf killing in the future.
Of course that will be after the wolves have done what they were brought in to do.
So, I'll ask again. If there is so much expose information of these illegal acts, why haven't there been lawsuits filed? I don't profess to know everything and I'll be the first to admit I'm not all that smart. However, I have a very hard time believing that if there is all of this info floating around, and it's actually legitimate, that it would take almost 20 years for a lawsuit to be filed and the removal process started.
Edit: Looks like Curly and I were typing at the same time.
Post by: Special T on April 07, 2013, 06:32:03 PM
Post by: wolfbait on April 07, 2013, 07:44:28 PM
I'm not sure how many of you have been involved in a laws suit. 1 it takes LOTS of $$$. 2 you have to have ALL your evidence wrapped in a nice bow before you can even approach a lawsuit. 3 If you want to get any kind of cooperation from ANY Gov agency or State rep you have to not only have it all wrapped up in a nice little bow, you have to find the "right guy" to talk to get you any help. :twocents:
And that is where we are today, WA verses DFand Wolves. It should be interresting, at any rate WDFW are going to have to submit stuff they really don't want the public to see. :tup: Such as wolf releases by their department. :'(
Post by: Northway on April 08, 2013, 12:50:34 PM
I'm not sure how many of you have been involved in a laws suit. 1 it takes LOTS of $$$. 2 you have to have ALL your evidence wrapped in a nice bow before you can even approach a lawsuit. 3 If you want to get any kind of cooperation from ANY Gov agency or State rep you have to not only have it all wrapped up in a nice little bow, you have to find the "right guy" to talk to get you any help. :twocents:
I think the lawsuit idea may have originated several years ago with Bob Fanning, who moved to Montana from Chicago. It never went anywhere; lack of funds is the claim made by some?
What I have a hard time believing is that if there was actually a solid case, why wouldn't someone like Don Peay come forward and fund the lawsuit? If he didn't have it himself, Peay certainly has access to very deep pockets, and he hates wolves as much as anyone.
People file lawsuits without having their ducks in a row all the time.
Post by: JLS on April 08, 2013, 01:52:36 PM
I'm not sure how many of you have been involved in a laws suit. 1 it takes LOTS of $$$. 2 you have to have ALL your evidence wrapped in a nice bow before you can even approach a lawsuit. 3 If you want to get any kind of cooperation from ANY Gov agency or State rep you have to not only have it all wrapped up in a nice little bow, you have to find the "right guy" to talk to get you any help. :twocents:
I think the lawsuit idea may have originated several years ago with Bob Fanning, who moved to Montana from Chicago. It never went anywhere; lack of funds is the claim made by some?
What I have a hard time believing is that if there was actually a solid case, why wouldn't someone like Don Peay come forward and fund the lawsuit? If he didn't have it himself, Peay certainly has access to very deep pockets, and he hates wolves as much as anyone.
People file lawsuits without having their ducks in a row all the time.
Exactly, SFW and BGF make money all the time off of anti wolf propoganda. I'm sure they have more than one high powered attorney in their membership.
Post by: Special T on April 08, 2013, 05:15:00 PM
I have experience with lawsuits, and anyone who has been involved in one can telly you, 99% of the time they are not slam dunks.
Post by: Humptulips on April 08, 2013, 07:40:00 PM
I have experience with lawsuits, and anyone who has been involved in one can telly you, 99% of the time they are not slam dunks.
:yeah:
Anyone doesn't think politics don't intude into the court room? A suit would be near impossible to win and very, very expensive.
So, lets say you win what does it get you? The court might rule they were brought in in violation of the law but that won't translate into remedial action. Do you think a court would order USFWS to exterminate every wolf south of the Canadian border? I think not!
Maybe they would order them off the Endangered Species list. Guess what, it's already happening. So what would be the point of spending the cash for a lawsuit? Nothing to gain by it.
Post by: Curly on April 08, 2013, 07:45:44 PM
If info about wolves illegally introduced into the state was widely known, I would think that people could have pressured WDFW and the commission with that ammo to get wolves delisted instead of them coming up with a ridiculous wolf plan. I just can't see any reason not to get the info out there and act like they have info but it is some secret? :dunno:
Post by: Curly on April 08, 2013, 07:46:49 PM
:sry:
Post by: Special T on April 08, 2013, 10:58:45 PM