Post by: Maybee-R on June 20, 2013, 06:39:23 PM
Say you draw and your buddy doesnt but you have him help by calling and packing if your lucky enough.
On another forum a person is asking what to do because his buddy cant call for him with out holding the same tags.
He is hunting before regular season and a couple days after but only permit holders can actually be there.
I never heard of this before..Can someone correct him or me?
Post by: blacktailcody on June 20, 2013, 07:00:22 PM
Post by: dreamunelk on June 20, 2013, 07:01:29 PM
Post by: xd2005 on June 20, 2013, 07:06:04 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F)
Post by: Maybee-R on June 20, 2013, 07:06:42 PM
Post by: Maybee-R on June 20, 2013, 07:13:44 PM
There was actually a thread about the definition of hunting a while back (last fall I think). The following link was part of the discussion.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F)
If you are only watching or guiding, you do not need a hunting license. However, if you are directly assisting and participating (such as driving game or packing hunting weapons), you will need the appropriate hunting license
So assisting and participating is the question then. is calling for your buddy participating/assisting...how about packing part of the meat out? this is some crazy stuff and hard to swallow.
And does this mean as long as they have a hunting license its alright? Im more confused now. lol.
Post by: Alan K on June 20, 2013, 07:23:54 PM
Post by: firefighter4607 on June 20, 2013, 07:27:26 PM
What unit is this in? That would help out to answer your question. The only area that I knew of that used to have that rule was the watershed, but they changed that a couple years ago.
Post by: Tom Tamer on June 20, 2013, 07:30:30 PM
There was actually a thread about the definition of hunting a while back (last fall I think). The following link was part of the discussion.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F)
If you are only watching or guiding, you do not need a hunting license. However, if you are directly assisting and participating (such as driving game or packing hunting weapons), you will need the appropriate hunting license
So assisting and participating is the question then. is calling for your buddy participating/assisting...how about packing part of the meat out? this is some crazy stuff and hard to swallow.
And does this mean as long as they have a hunting license its alright? Im more confused now. lol.
Wow that sounds like a mess of crap? To be "hunting" wouldn't you need a weapon? What if you were calling in animals only to take pictures? Think it may be bunk,but wouldn't put anything past our Gov't to try and make illegal and or trying to bilk more money out of us.
Notice though the explanation doe not include calling, I was explained by WDFW officals if it does not explicitly say something is illegal than it is in fact legal. If no where in their definitions specify calling as part of hunting than it is fine to do so. How many guys call to an animal in off seasons? Turkey,elk,ducks or what not? :twocents:
Post by: Elkbow33 on June 20, 2013, 07:32:33 PM
Post by: Maybee-R on June 20, 2013, 07:41:46 PM
If only permit holders are allowed in the area like you stated then NO! When the watershed only allows the permit holder, it meant only the hunter, not the hunter and a buddy weather or not the buddy is armed.
What unit is this in? That would help out to answer your question. The only area that I knew of that used to have that rule was the watershed, but they changed that a couple years ago.
I assumed it was because of the permit area..He never posted the actual unit. Ill ask.
Post by: smdave on June 20, 2013, 07:42:54 PM
There was actually a thread about the definition of hunting a while back (last fall I think). The following link was part of the discussion.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F)
Here is the email I got from WDFW when I asked them the question.
Mr. Carey,
I apologize for the delay in responding to this e-mail but I have been out on leave for the holidays when it was forwarded to me. The best answer I can give you is that an individual would need to have a license while hunting, which includes any effort to kill, capture, injure, or harass a wild animal or wild bird. Dragging, gutting, skinning, locating a downed animal, or spotting an animal would not meet this definition as long as the individual is only accompanying the individual that is lawfully hunting or lawfully harvested an animal. This would pertain when assisting any hunter including a child. If you have any additional questions or concerns please let me know.
Carl Klein, Sergeant
Hunter Education Program
Master Hunter Permit Program
Aquatic Invasive Species Program
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Law Enforcement Program
360-902-2426
I would send this to you if you want to have the original. just send me a PM
Post by: Maybee-R on June 20, 2013, 07:59:38 PM
There was actually a thread about the definition of hunting a while back (last fall I think). The following link was part of the discussion.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F)
Here is the email I got from WDFW when I asked them the question.
Mr. Carey,
I apologize for the delay in responding to this e-mail but I have been out on leave for the holidays when it was forwarded to me. The best answer I can give you is that an individual would need to have a license while hunting, which includes any effort to kill, capture, injure, or harass a wild animal or wild bird. Dragging, gutting, skinning, locating a downed animal, or spotting an animal would not meet this definition as long as the individual is only accompanying the individual that is lawfully hunting or lawfully harvested an animal. This would pertain when assisting any hunter including a child. If you have any additional questions or concerns please let me know.
Carl Klein, Sergeant
Hunter Education Program
Master Hunter Permit Program
Aquatic Invasive Species Program
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Law Enforcement Program
360-902-2426
I would send this to you if you want to have the original. just send me a PM
Thank you. I copied and pasted this info for him.
Post by: Rooster1981 on June 20, 2013, 08:01:35 PM
•WDFW Help Home > Licensing Requirements
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F)
Q. Do I need a hunting license if I'm just helping my child or others to hunt?
A. It depends. If you are only watching or guiding, you do not need a hunting license. However, if you are directly assisting and participating (such as driving game or packing hunting weapons), you will need the appropriate hunting license.
Calling elk legal?
Good question Legal definition of hunting: To Hunt: Any effort to kill, capture, injure, or
harass a wild animal or wild bird.
That's all it says. The way I interpet it is if you are calling elk you are trying to harass or capture them for yourself or someone else. I would say it is Illegal to call elk with out a hunting license and tag.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 20, 2013, 08:06:59 PM
•WDFW Help Home > Licensing Requirements
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F (http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/86/Do+I+need+a+hunting+license+if+I%27m+just+helping+my+child+or+others+to+hunt%3F)
Q. Do I need a hunting license if I'm just helping my child or others to hunt?
A. It depends. If you are only watching or guiding, you do not need a hunting license. However, if you are directly assisting and participating (such as driving game or packing hunting weapons), you will need the appropriate hunting license.
Calling elk legal?
Good question Legal definition of hunting: To Hunt: Any effort to kill, capture, injure, or
harass a wild animal or wild bird.
That's all it says. The way I interpet it is if you are calling elk you are trying to harass or capture them for yourself or someone else. I would say it is Illegal to call elk with out a hunting license and tag.
Harassing Elk shouldnt be considered hunting. I understand the Harassing argument and I believe its a ticket all in its own. So next question is why dont WDFW just issue or arrest those who harass animals for a hunting violation then...Maybe they do?
Post by: Rooster1981 on June 20, 2013, 08:11:37 PM
I'm not saying I agree with the law. I think It would be total BS to get a ticket for calling elk with out a hunting licence. I once got the riot act from a Gammie when I was elk hunting And I spotted a phased colored deer and fallowed it. He said I was Harassing the deer and it was out of season. He then said I could get a ticket. He just gave me a warning and told me to tread lightly.
Post by: Mxracer532 on June 21, 2013, 01:17:59 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 21, 2013, 01:21:59 PM
Post by: h20hunter on June 21, 2013, 01:26:11 PM
In all seriousness not in a million years will a person calling elk during their buddys bow hunt ever get cited.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 21, 2013, 01:29:13 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on June 21, 2013, 01:31:30 PM
Post by: Curly on June 21, 2013, 01:49:36 PM
Post by: Huntbear on June 21, 2013, 01:51:37 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on June 21, 2013, 01:52:26 PM
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2013, 01:55:55 PM
Post by: Special T on June 21, 2013, 02:30:43 PM
Post by: xd2005 on June 21, 2013, 02:46:50 PM
I call elk when I am hiking and photographing.. I am also carrying a sidearm.. so am I illegal???? No game officer has said anything, to me ever..
Calling elk in and of itself is not what would make it illegal. What would make it illegal would be calling the elk with the intention of killing (either by yourself or someone else). The purpose is what matters. This also means whether one has a firearm or not is irrelevant.
Sure, a game could stop and talk to you and you could convince him you are just out for a leisurely stroll and happen to come upon your friend in the woods (or maybe that you don't even know them). But if he sees you assisting and you walk out both carrying the animal, or rode in the same truck, he may not take too kindly to that. :twocents:
Post by: hrd2fnd on June 21, 2013, 02:50:18 PM
I call elk when I am hiking and photographing.. I am also carrying a sidearm.. so am I illegal???? No game officer has said anything, to me ever..knowing you it is illegal as your harassing not just the elk but anyone or anything in the woods. :chuckle:
Post by: Curly on June 21, 2013, 02:55:32 PM
Post by: Huntbear on June 21, 2013, 02:56:26 PM
I call elk when I am hiking and photographing.. I am also carrying a sidearm.. so am I illegal???? No game officer has said anything, to me ever..knowing you it is illegal as your harassing not just the elk but anyone or anything in the woods. :chuckle:
And I know the areas you will hunt.... :chuckle:
Post by: Maybee-R on June 21, 2013, 04:07:10 PM
Sounds like its illegal. Now ask me if i would still call for my dad if he drew a tag and i didnt. BET UR ASS I WOULD!
HAHA! You know I would also. Better just start writing me up now! Stupid law if its true. Im hoping all of us are reading too much into all this. Waiting for an Email to hopefully clear this up. I want to see it in writing where calling is illegal during season for a buddy or your child.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 21, 2013, 04:12:30 PM
Dear Mr. Maybee,
Thank you for contacting the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Your friend is correct. If you are only watching or guiding, you do not need a hunting license. However, if you are directly assisting and participating (such as driving game or packing hunting weapons), you will need the appropriate hunting license.
Calling elk for a friend is directly assisting and participating in the hunt. In this case, both would need the appropriate elk license and tag.
Best regards,
Wildlife Program Customer Service
(360) 902-2515
Two things come to mind. If you have a partner that submits and draws the same permit. You call and he tags out..He now cant help you?? No returning the favor because legally he doesnt hold a permit any longer. BS.
Another is better start applying with a partner because you wont legally be able to have help.
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2013, 04:27:25 PM
:mor:
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2013, 04:31:47 PM
:stup:
Post by: Maybee-R on June 21, 2013, 04:35:02 PM
Only an anti-hunter would interpret the law that way. Anybody with ccommon sense knows that is NOT the intent of the law.
:mor:
Or someone afraid of breaking any rules. Im pissed that they sent the email saying he was correct.
Still havent found it in writing either. the law that is.
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2013, 04:42:13 PM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 21, 2013, 05:21:04 PM
I am tagging along for this train wreck. How bored can people get? Good lord, next people are going to say you can't even look at an elk without a permit/license. This is Nucking Futz.:yeah:
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 21, 2013, 05:26:11 PM
Only an anti-hunter would interpret the law that way. Anybody with ccommon sense knows that is NOT the intent of the law.And just because it came from DFW does not mean it wasn't.
:mor:
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2013, 05:43:38 PM
Only an anti-hunter would interpret the law that way. Anybody with ccommon sense knows that is NOT the intent of the law.And just because it came from DFW does not mean it wasn't.
:mor:
Exactly, and that's what I'm saying. They shouldn't have anti's working for them. I just don't get how they can say guiding elk hunters is ok, but calling elk is not. :rolleyes:
How about this: how many people draw a once in a lifetime moose tag in this state, and then have someone come along to help, and what if that helper calls in a moose for his buddy to shoot? Is the WDFW going to say that's illegal because that person didn't also draw a moose permit?
This is ridiculous. I never even would've asked the question. But I'd sure like to have the name of the WDFW employee who wrote that letter. >:(
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 21, 2013, 05:48:31 PM
Only an anti-hunter would interpret the law that way. Anybody with ccommon sense knows that is NOT the intent of the law.And just because it came from DFW does not mean it wasn't.
:mor:
Exactly, and that's what I'm saying. They shouldn't have anti's working for them. I just don't get how they can say guiding elk hunters is ok, but calling elk is not. :rolleyes:
How about this: how many people draw a once in a lifetime moose tag in this state, and then have someone come along to help, and what if that helper calls in a moose for his buddy to shoot? Is the WDFW going to say that's illegal because that person didn't also draw a moose permit?
This is ridiculous. I never even would've asked the question. But I'd sure like to have the name of the WDFW employee who wrote that letter. >:(
And maybe in case of trolls this whole thread should be deleted........
Post by: billythekidrock on June 21, 2013, 05:49:27 PM
This is ridiculous. I never even would've asked the question. But I'd sure like to have the name of the WDFW employee who wrote that letter. >:(
I do know that they just recently had an opening for a new CSR. Maybe this is the new one?
Post by: Curly on June 21, 2013, 05:50:00 PM
Quote
This is ridiculous. I never even would've asked the question.
Exactly. The question should not have been asked.
Post by: billythekidrock on June 21, 2013, 05:50:21 PM
QuoteThis is ridiculous. I never even would've asked the question.
Exactly. The question should not have been asked.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on June 21, 2013, 05:55:05 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 21, 2013, 06:10:04 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2013, 06:13:19 PM
Mad that someone at the WDFW would provide a wrong answer on something that's just common sense.
I'm pretty sure no game warden would say calling elk is illegal.
Post by: xd2005 on June 21, 2013, 06:20:17 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2013, 06:24:37 PM
Hunting guides do not need to be licensed or registered, right? Why not just pay your friend a buck to be your "guide?"
Guides can't call elk either. :rolleyes:
Post by: Maybee-R on June 21, 2013, 06:31:31 PM
I'm not worried, I'm mad!
Mad that someone at the WDFW would provide a wrong answer on something that's just common sense.
I'm pretty sure no game warden would say calling elk is illegal.
You and I both are mad. This guy asking is a Hunter education teacher. He pointed it out and got me thinking. I asked on this forum because of all the member access.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Closing this thread like mentioned is showing your liberal mind set dude. Just because you dont like the question doesnt give you the right to censor another persons freedom of speech. You can I guess but it wont stop the question. Ive played by the book my whole life. Or so I thought and now this crap?
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 21, 2013, 06:31:39 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2013, 06:41:58 PM
Post by: MIKEXRAY on June 21, 2013, 06:44:29 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 21, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
What kind of license does a guide need?A business license ....from the state :dunno:
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 21, 2013, 06:59:33 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 21, 2013, 07:08:23 PM
That's the info wdfw gives for fishing so hunting guides probably pay way more.
Post by: Curly on June 21, 2013, 07:13:19 PM
Post by: washelkhunter on June 21, 2013, 07:22:58 PM
Here is the Email...Im not liking this at all and all of us need to change this...
Dear Mr. Maybee,
Thank you for contacting the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Your friend is correct. If you are only watching or guiding, you do not need a hunting license. However, if you are directly assisting and participating (such as driving game or packing hunting weapons), you will need the appropriate hunting license.
Calling elk for a friend is directly assisting and participating in the hunt. In this case, both would need the appropriate elk license and tag.
Best regards,
Wildlife Program Customer Service
(360) 902-2515
Two things come to mind. If you have a partner that submits and draws the same permit. You call and he tags out..He now cant help you?? No returning the favor because legally he doesnt hold a permit any longer. BS.
Another is better start applying with a partner because you wont legally be able to have help.
This makes sense. If you are actively engaging in the pursuit of said wildlife (to kill, hunt) then all participants need a "hunting license". You may have already filled your tag but you can still assist your pard.
Post by: stuckalot on June 21, 2013, 08:33:12 PM
Post by: Rooster1981 on June 21, 2013, 10:04:10 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial/charter_guides.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial/charter_guides.html)
That's the info wdfw gives for fishing so hunting guides probably pay way more.
There is no guide licence for hunting is Washington. The only thing you need is a business license, and if your smart you'll be bonded and insured.
Post by: dscubame on June 21, 2013, 10:16:17 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial/charter_guides.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/licensing/commercial/charter_guides.html)
That's the info wdfw gives for fishing so hunting guides probably pay way more.
There is no guide licence for hunting is Washington. The only thing you need is a business license, and if your smart you'll be bonded and insured.
Why do you suggest a bond? Who would be the obligee? You have to pay a bond claim back, it is essentially a letter of credit and not risk transfer. Just curious why you would suggest a bond and for what reason?
Post by: Rooster1981 on June 21, 2013, 10:22:11 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 22, 2013, 07:31:37 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 22, 2013, 07:35:10 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 22, 2013, 07:51:50 AM
Post by: norsepeak on June 22, 2013, 08:04:14 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 22, 2013, 08:23:11 AM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on June 22, 2013, 08:38:06 AM
Post by: Curly on June 22, 2013, 08:42:56 AM
Calling elk in and of itself is not what would make it illegal. What would make it illegal would be calling the elk with the intention of killing (either by yourself or someone else). The purpose is what matters. This also means whether one has a firearm or not is irrelevant.
Well, if one considers calling elk to be harassing the elk, then you wouldn't even need the intent to kill (by yourself or someone else) for it to be considered "hunting".
As Rooster81 pointed out, the legal definition of "hunting" is where they get you:
Quote
Good question Legal definition of hunting: To Hunt: Any effort to kill, capture, injure, or harass a wild animal or wild bird.
That's all it says. The way I interpret it is if you are calling elk you are trying to harass or capture them for yourself or someone else. I would say it is Illegal to call elk with out a hunting license and tag.[/quote]
In order for calling elk to not be considered illegal, the definition of hunting would need to change. Or, it would at least need clarified so that some of the folks at wdfw will stop interpreting it like they are. (I suppose that would mean somebody gets a ticket and takes it to court and the lawyers can argue about the definition of hunting and a judge can rule on it). :rolleyes:
Post by: Curly on June 22, 2013, 08:44:02 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 22, 2013, 08:51:31 AM
Oh, and if it is illegal to call elk, then they may as well start ticketing all the waterfowl guides as well. :rolleyes: :chuckle:
Well, I'd guess that normally a waterfowl guide would have the proper licenses for waterfowl hunting, since most of them are hunters as well.
But how about this scenario- there is an early waterfowl season for kids, right? So any guide, or dad, who is calling ducks and geese for kids during this hunt, would be in violation. Basically they could be cited for hunting out of season, correct?
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on June 22, 2013, 09:03:40 AM
Post by: buglebuster on June 22, 2013, 09:09:31 AM
Post by: Curly on June 22, 2013, 09:12:29 AM
You guys are all over analyzing this, you will never get a ticket for calling for a partner.
:yeah:
The time to get worked up about it is when someone is actually cited. I doubt any game warden is actually going to pinch someone on this technicality. Sure, it would be best if wdfw didn't come out with that email and make that statement about being illegal, but I'm not going to worry about it. :twocents:
Post by: Maybee-R on June 22, 2013, 11:47:09 AM
Fight it now. Get the thing in writing so all of us can put it to bed. Overturn the stupid unjust law.
Post by: bobcat on June 22, 2013, 12:43:38 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 22, 2013, 01:32:47 PM
This fall, take a non-licensed person out to do the calling while the properly licensed and tag and or permit bearing one hunts and shoots an animal. Capture it all on video, identify each person, their role in the hunt and license, tag and permit status, then turn the video over to the game department.
Better still how about several doing it in different counties, so can get a better cross section of data for the experiment?
See what or if any charges are brought, or if they even care enough to follow up on it. Best way to settle this once and for all. Then if charged, follow through the court system to the end.
Becasue, really other than that, it is just going to be a round and round discussion of opinions.
Any takers amongst those who are adamant that there is no laws being broken??????
Post by: xd2005 on June 23, 2013, 04:46:14 PM
How many of us have hunting partners that don't buy a hunting license? This will affect a very small portion of those in the woods this year.
Living on the border, I've known a number of guys that have friends that come up here for our season and vice versa.
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 23, 2013, 07:11:10 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 23, 2013, 07:36:00 PM
Blacktailsniper- I don't believe the burden of proof falls on the hunter. The burden of proof would be wdfw's job to establish. I bet you can find thousands of videos online that depict every instance in which you described. Except the video wasn't hand delivered to the department for scrutiny. If they would like to scrutinize these videos they are public and are there for them to look over. Personally I have seen a lot of videos where multiple people are hunting one has tagged out on film and is filming/ calling while the other is hunting. Or videos depicting guides calling for permit holders so they can focus on shooting. If it were a crime lots of money would be made in fines and such just by going through you tube. The department has made lots of cases by way of social media and more likely than not, not a signal one is for calling w/o a tag. So just cause the hunter isn't willing to stick his hand out to get bit doesn't mean the department will prosecute.
Correct. No arguement there.
My point of the post was twofold, if you want a definative answer, that is what it would it take...getting it into the system to run its course, and secondly, it was a challenge of sorts for those who are so sure that they had nothing to worry about, to step up out of the internet world and walk the walk in the real world, where there may something really at risk if they are wrong.
Did I expect or think anyone would accept the challenge or actually do it?? No, not in a million years. But it was funny to see the post suddenly go quiet for so long afterwards....
Post by: bobcat on June 23, 2013, 07:57:32 PM
Quote
Did I expect or think anyone would accept the challenge or actually do it?? No, not in a million years. But it was funny to see the post suddenly go quiet for so long afterwards....
I wouldn't have a problem doing that. Only problem is that's not my hunting method this year. We're planning on hunting out of ground blinds and ambushing the elk rather than trying to call them to us.
Maybe next year...
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 23, 2013, 08:17:26 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 23, 2013, 08:19:07 PM
:beatdeadhorse:
Post by: stuckalot on June 23, 2013, 08:26:14 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 23, 2013, 09:03:23 PM
Okay!
:beatdeadhorse:
Great way to concede....
You could of said yeah your right no judge/jury would convict a crime of this nature and it's wrong for me to place the burden of proof on law biding sportsman while trying to make them look/feel stupid for not accepting a horribly thought out "challenge"....
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 23, 2013, 09:27:12 PM
Here is the Email...Im not liking this at all and all of us need to change this...
Dear Mr. Maybee,
Thank you for contacting the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Your friend is correct. If you are only watching or guiding, you do not need a hunting license. However, if you are directly assisting and participating (such as driving game or packing hunting weapons), you will need the appropriate hunting license.
Calling elk for a friend is directly assisting and participating in the hunt. In this case, both would need the appropriate elk license and tag.
Best regards,
Wildlife Program Customer Service
(360) 902-2515
Two things come to mind. If you have a partner that submits and draws the same permit. You call and he tags out..He now cant help you?? No returning the favor because legally he doesnt hold a permit any longer. BS.
Another is better start applying with a partner because you wont legally be able to have help.
Seems like the issue is that even though the WDFW has directly said it would be illegal in the above email response to another members inquiry, some don't want to or refuse accept that. It apparently isn't the answer some want to hear so therefore it is incorrect. Or, instead its what about this then or what about that, maybe if this and that....an on and on.
Yes there are 1000's of like videos on pubic forums, video sites, etc., how many of them indicate they are doing something that may be against the law? Generally, if any mention is made at all it is to say ALL laws are being followed. If there is no risk of being wrong, no law being broken, no worry about fines, loss of hunting license, etc, then why is such a big deal?
Are the laws and such all written to be easily understood by everyone all the time? No, they can be as confusing as trying to read a foreign language.
Can they be improved, made clearer, simpler? Absolutely!
Will it happen on its own? Maybe, but not likely.
Left to the legislature and hunters, hounds and baiting were not an issue. The anti's organized, spent time, energy, money, and sold their point of view to the people that mattered, the ones with the power to make it so.
You didn't or wouldn't see them argueing amongst themselves, making silly statements like transporting across state lines to get the Fed's involved, etc. They stood together and did something about it. Got called names, their intelligence questioned, etc., etc., but they stuck together and got a law to say and do clearly what they wanted it to.
It is things like this type behavior that will always be hunter's biggest problem...my way is better, right, more ethical, etc than what I don't like or agree with that you are doing or what I am being told.
The question was raised by someone with a genuine concern, contact was made with the agency responsible for enforcing the applicable law(s), and an answer was received.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 23, 2013, 09:30:53 PM
Okay!
:beatdeadhorse:
Great way to concede....
You could of said yeah your right no judge/jury would convict a crime of this nature and it's wrong for me to place the burden of proof on law biding sportsman while trying to make them look/feel stupid for not accepting a horribly thought out "challenge"....
No concession, just what I thought was an apropriate response.
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 23, 2013, 09:45:56 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 23, 2013, 11:00:51 PM
God knows wild life customer service has never been wrong.... To think you believe some hippy at the headquarters couldn't have miss interpreted the verbiage is crazy. I'm no attorney but even I could convince a jury that the verbiage used is not intended to enforce such instances as calling for friends. If so they would be convicting all that have posted such videos. Why would people posting videos of calling for friends, state in said video that they were breaking laws if they weren't? To satisfy you? Or to satisfy those who choose to miss construe the harassing wildlife law ? Believe the customer service all you want. I believe the lack of convictions speaks for itself. Even though they don't say the are breaking the law. I doubt any conviction by way of social media has the defendant stating "I'm breaking the law". But if that's your logic....
Sorry if I offended you, you seem to be taking this entire thing very personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on any one individual, just an idea to maybe put a different perspective on the subject. Clearly you do not agree, that is fine and your right.
I have not called anyone names, questioned their intelligence or otherwise tried to offend anyone. The agency in power was asked and an answer received. Now, I agree with you, mistakes happen, things are read one way by some and another by others. This entire thread is a great example of that.
My point was at that time then, talking round and round, over and over was useless, an action was needed if a final answer was desired. I sugguested an example, with no intention or expectation that someone would take it to heart or become offended. I thought it would be a better way of saying put your money where your mouth is so to speak. If you really believe it something to be true, take a chance and put it out there to the test, if you are right, there is nothing to lose. Nothing more than that.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 24, 2013, 07:11:39 AM
God knows wild life customer service has never been wrong.... To think you believe some hippy at the headquarters couldn't have miss interpreted the verbiage is crazy. I'm no attorney but even I could convince a jury that the verbiage used is not intended to enforce such instances as calling for friends. If so they would be convicting all that have posted such videos. Why would people posting videos of calling for friends, state in said video that they were breaking laws if they weren't? To satisfy you? Or to satisfy those who choose to miss construe the harassing wildlife law ? Believe the customer service all you want. I believe the lack of convictions speaks for itself. Even though they don't say the are breaking the law. I doubt any conviction by way of social media has the defendant stating "I'm breaking the law". But if that's your logic....
You risk getting more involved with what is or isnt clearly against the law. Prove they are wrong. Dont just assume and act like this is stupid so it cant be so.
I posted here for help and hoped someone could clear this up. Speculation isnt proof enough.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 24, 2013, 07:23:33 AM
Blacktail sniper- the fact is many members of hunt wa (whom I am sure share the same adamant stance on the topic as discussed previously) have already filmed and posted these scenarios on the very real world Internet for all law enforcement agencys to view. Maybe the lack of response was due to the lack of intelligence in your "challenge". If thousands of these videos exist already why would the department need them delivered to the headquarters? They have the Internet. As stated before the department would surely capitalize on a law being broken and published online. They have prosecuted by way of public media before and will continue to do so. But laws that don't exist require no prosecution.
I hope your right. I have asked for the date and link to the law. I want to see it in writing and when this was made into law.
I also sent in my contempt to this unjust rule or law if its true.
Post by: xd2005 on June 24, 2013, 07:31:13 AM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 24, 2013, 07:34:19 AM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 24, 2013, 08:17:41 AM
Try getting through to enforcement division.
That is frustratingly true and in and of itself reason to call them on the carpet and push for better communication or more accurately, just a response.
Post by: Curly on June 24, 2013, 08:24:59 AM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 24, 2013, 08:48:58 AM
Try getting through to enforcement division.
That is frustratingly true and in and of itself reason to call them on the carpet and push for better communication or more accurately, just a response.
Why push the issue if no warden ever intends on writing a citation for this? :dunno:
Just to make sure that what I posted was inturupted correctly, here, I was saying push the issue regarding enforcement and their slow and more often times (in my experience) no response when an inquiry is made.
Customer service division should not have anything to say or do when an inquiry is made regarding laws, regulations or that type question.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 24, 2013, 09:46:08 AM
Why push the issue if no warden ever intends on writing a citation for this? :dunno:
Why? So no one ever gets cited for it. Its not like speeding and getting out of a ticket. its more like a hit and run to me. pretty important.
Same as hunting on the other side of the fence. Your not suppose too so dont. or are you?
Post by: Curly on June 24, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
I don't have a problem going out and calling elk for someone else (when I don't have a tag), but if this rule that never gets enforced becomes common knowledge that it is illegal, then I'm going to have a hard time saying I was unaware that it was illegal. (I realize ignorance of the law is no excuse, but I do think that a warden would let it slide if you say you didn't know it was illegal.) :twocents:
If wdfw is forced to make a written ruling clarifying the law, then maybe they will be obligated to start enforcing it. (Am I making any sense, or am I just out in left field)? :dunno:
Post by: h20hunter on June 24, 2013, 09:56:30 AM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 24, 2013, 10:23:54 AM
Example case in point, talked to both the F&G and a hunter, about 6 years ago, when/while this happened. Mudflow Antlerless Elk hunt, the hunter shoots an animal inside the trees after watching it for several minutes with binos and is sure it is antlerless.
Walks up and it has very small, but above the hairline horns. This guy had no prior issuse with WDFW violations and is just crushed him that he made a mistake. He calls and reports what happened because he feels that is the right thing to do, the ethical thing in his mind.
Now, the investigating officer wrote him for something like an Illegal kill in a closed area...antlered animal in an antlerless area/permit, words to that effect, but I think you get idea.
There was clearly no intention of this fellow intending to violate the law, and honestly, if he had not called it in he more than likely would have gotten it out and home scott-free, or even just left it where it was and drove away. His honesty was rewarded with a ticket. the warden said he was doing him a "favor" by not pulling his license, firearm, etc. because he could see how bad this fellow was taking his mistake.
I do not believe or trust, in part, maybe due to their being spread so far and wide, and the amounts of uncaught (if that is a word) incidents, that they just give warning for violations they feel can prove or witness, intent to violate does not apparently factor in.
It seems to me that, right or wrong, it is the mentality that I caught you this time, so you must have done something else that I didn't catch, so here ya go...GOTTCHA!!
Maybe, if the person pushes through to a jury trial, he may be able to get a Not Guility, but at what cost? Atty fees, time lost from work for court, etc. And even then, can't always predict how a jury will see it and who they will believe. Read back through the RTSpring postings about his incident and what he went through.
Of course there are always the lazy ones, like in any industry or profession, who would not do anything that required them to put forth effort and take action unless there was absolutly no way out of it.
And in the case of calling, I believe that unless you were seen, first hand, in action actually doing the calling and at that time, it was determined that you didn't have lic, tags etc, there would be nothing happen.
I really can't blame the OP for wanting to make sure he is doing everything on the up & up.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 24, 2013, 11:00:22 AM
I guess now we need legislation to over turn such an unjust law. I worried this would be the case. Now we all know.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 24, 2013, 11:10:28 AM
I called enforcement..its a written law and will be enforced. You get caught you will be cited for a violation. ..
I guess now we need legislation to over turn such an unjust law. I worried this would be the case. Now we all know.
Thanks for sticking through and getting an answer. Now would be a good time to address things like this since it is the middle of the 3 year planning cycle, and things are being considered for additions and cjanges to the cycle that will start in 2015.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 24, 2013, 11:11:17 AM
Post by: Maybee-R on June 24, 2013, 11:45:33 AM
Also, by chance did they give you the specific RCW or WAC code that covered this?
[/quote,
No he didnt. But said it was enforcible and would be...I'm going to get WSAA to look into this and get it changed.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on June 24, 2013, 11:47:33 AM
Also, by chance did they give you the specific RCW or WAC code that covered this?
[/quote,
No he didnt. But said it was enforcible and would be...I'm going to get WSAA to look into this and get it changed.
Cool, keep us posted on here and I am sure that folks will be willing to toss support by sending emails, letters. phonecalls, etc.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 24, 2013, 12:31:46 PM
And was upset sounding because of the earlier email. Even the head of enforcement agrees its dumb. So sounds like by the book was indeed the way I did It.
Post by: cmiller85 on June 24, 2013, 03:30:48 PM
Ok. New email. Jerry said law enforcement wont ticket you if your not packing a weapon.
And was upset sounding because of the earlier email. Even the head of enforcement agrees its dumb. So sounds like by the book was indeed the way I did It.
So if your packing a weapon and calling you'll get cited? What if bear/cougar season is also open and you are packing a rifle just in case?
I had my rifle in the truck on my dads 2011 colockum muzzy bull tag just for such a reason. We were then threatened by an apparent "native" after hearing many shots from a semi auto high-powered rifle. After the threats I started packing the rifle in the woods for protection too. I was calling and filming.
I have a hard time believing a citation would stand if a hunter was packing and had a legal tag and a legal weapon. Being more heavily scrutinized is understandable but when there isn't any evidence of an illegally harvested animal or there is a reasonable, legal purpose for carrying then I don't see this sticking at all.
If that is in fact the way the law reads then it needs changing, now.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 24, 2013, 03:52:02 PM
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 24, 2013, 10:01:18 PM
Post by: bobcat on June 24, 2013, 10:22:08 PM
His words was technically its illegal. But no one would be cited for it as long as they had a bear couger or conceal carry permit.
I'm not sure what a CPL would be for in this situation. :dunno: Weird.
Post by: Maybee-R on June 25, 2013, 06:03:34 AM
His words was technically its illegal. But no one would be cited for it as long as they had a bear couger or conceal carry permit.
I'm not sure what a CPL would be for in this situation. :dunno: Weird.
Its not..You wont be considered hunting even if your carrying with a concealed is what this situation meant.
Post by: SGM R on June 25, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Post by: Maybee-R on June 25, 2013, 06:09:38 AM
Ha! I knew it! You should probably ask Jerry from now on for future explination of current law. Instead of the forum and/or customer service. The folks who give the tickets know what tickets they are willing to write and what situations they are willing to write them for. But I sure did was right on this one! :chuckle: :tup:
Yeah your a fart smeller. Should of just asked you. Its still written into law. You seem to miss that part. just because one guy said he wont cite you doesnt mean another wont. Some new kid on the job may read this different.
Dont worry though. Im still going to pursue getting it changed to protect your butt along with mine. Its a stupid law.
Post by: slim9300 on June 25, 2013, 06:29:39 PM
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