Post by: bearpaw on June 23, 2013, 04:16:14 PM
A Texas citizen is asking a state appeals court to decide whether police are justified in launching a no-knock raid on a home they want to search simply because they believe there is a gun inside.
Whatever the issue might be, whether its mass surveillance, no-knock raids, or the right to freely express ones views about the government, weve moved into a new age in which the rights of the citizenry are being treated as a secondary concern by the White House, Congress, the courts and their vast holding of employees, including law enforcement officials, said John W. Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, which is defending John Gerard Quinn.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/gun-owner-targeted-with-no-knock-raid/ (http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/gun-owner-targeted-with-no-knock-raid/)
Post by: Goshawk on June 26, 2013, 04:52:10 PM
Don't know about Texas, but in Washington State a no knock takes a Judge's signature after some proof is offered that there are weapons in the building along with someone who is known to be dangerous to law enforcement.
What was the warrant issued for in the first place? Felony arrest? Drugs? Illegal Weapons? A few information holes need to be filled before we can tell what's going on.
Post by: Johnb317 on June 26, 2013, 05:36:53 PM
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
Post by: Crunchy on June 26, 2013, 09:16:31 PM
The article said the no knock warrant was approved solely on the basis that he had an ak47. Drug search as his son was selling. There have been more than one instances where a it was the wrong house and the home owner was shot trying to protect himself from 'strangers' that broke down his door.
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
Lets see selling drugs and armed with an AK47. Sounds like a good enough reason to me. No knocks are not issued all that often, but under the right circumstances definitely a good thing.
Post by: Goshawk on June 29, 2013, 10:41:53 PM
The article said the no knock warrant was approved solely on the basis that he had an ak47. Drug search as his son was selling. There have been more than one instances where a it was the wrong house and the home owner was shot trying to protect himself from 'strangers' that broke down his door.
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
But not as many as you may think:
in ALL of the USA, according to the CATO Institute there were by the years this many deaths from police raids on the wrong homes:
2011 2
2010 2
2009 0
2008 2
2007 0
2006 1
None would be in a perfict world, but this ain't bad.
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2013, 10:52:01 PM
The article said the no knock warrant was approved solely on the basis that he had an ak47. Drug search as his son was selling. There have been more than one instances where a it was the wrong house and the home owner was shot trying to protect himself from 'strangers' that broke down his door.
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
But not as many as you may think:
in ALL of the USA, according to the CATO Institute there were by the years this many deaths from police raids on the wrong homes:
2011 2
2010 2
2009 0
2008 2
2007 0
2006 1
None would be in a perfict world, but this ain't bad.
How you look at those numbers being acceptable depends on whether it was your family or friends that were the statistic. :twocents:
Post by: KFhunter on June 29, 2013, 10:57:28 PM
The article said the no knock warrant was approved solely on the basis that he had an ak47. Drug search as his son was selling. There have been more than one instances where a it was the wrong house and the home owner was shot trying to protect himself from 'strangers' that broke down his door.
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
But not as many as you may think:
in ALL of the USA, according to the CATO Institute there were by the years this many deaths from police raids on the wrong homes:
2011 2
2010 2
2009 0
2008 2
2007 0
2006 1
None would be in a perfict world, but this ain't bad.
How you look at those numbers being acceptable depends on whether it was your family or friends that were the statistic. :twocents:
Where are the numbers of lives saved due to police taking down bad guys in regards to no knock warrants? Impossible to come up with I know, but I bet they would be much higher.
but I agree, 1 is too many.
Post by: JLS on June 29, 2013, 11:16:02 PM
I don't know if the small number that went bad, they had trouble breaching the entry, but once the flash bangs go off and they cross the threshold of the entry every single one of them is yelling "police". Loudly. Multiple times.
They don't kick the door in and clear the house without announcing their authority.
Post by: bearpaw on June 29, 2013, 11:26:39 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 29, 2013, 11:34:11 PM
So if I'm in bed tonight and experience a no knock raid I should feel good about it, hope nobody gets trigger happy when I cover my eyes from the bright lights. Just sayin....
Just vet your guests for possible wants/warrants and post a list of who is staying where at the local p...
just kidding :o
Post by: Crunchy on June 29, 2013, 11:41:46 PM
So if I'm in bed tonight and experience a no knock raid I should feel good about it, hope nobody gets trigger happy when I cover my eyes from the bright lights. Just sayin....
No knock warrants are soley for the benefit of the guys kicking down your door. Unless you've done that a time or two you probably dont see the benefit.
Post by: JLS on June 30, 2013, 08:45:13 AM
So if I'm in bed tonight and experience a no knock raid I should feel good about it, hope nobody gets trigger happy when I cover my eyes from the bright lights. Just sayin....
Never said you should feel good about it, so I don't know what your point is. My point is, that I guarantee you will know who is there and they will tell you exactly what they want you to do.
Post by: crazysccrmd on June 30, 2013, 09:00:46 AM
Post by: bearpaw on June 30, 2013, 09:40:18 AM
So if I'm in bed tonight and experience a no knock raid I should feel good about it, hope nobody gets trigger happy when I cover my eyes from the bright lights. Just sayin....
Never said you should feel good about it, so I don't know what your point is. My point is, that I guarantee you will know who is there and they will tell you exactly what they want you to do.
Thank you for illustrating my point so well, it's all about the police today, peoples rights no longer matter. I think the situation is best explained by John Whitehead, if you are in favor of "no knock" raids, I truly don't expect you to understand.
Quote
Whatever the issue might be, whether its mass surveillance, no-knock raids, or the right to freely express ones views about the government, weve moved into a new age in which the rights of the citizenry are being treated as a secondary concern by the White House, Congress, the courts and their vast holding of employees, including law enforcement officials, said John W. Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, which is defending John Gerard Quinn.
Post by: bearpaw on June 30, 2013, 09:47:57 AM
So if I'm in bed tonight and experience a no knock raid I should feel good about it, hope nobody gets trigger happy when I cover my eyes from the bright lights. Just sayin....
Just vet your guests for possible wants/warrants and post a list of who is staying where at the local p...
just kidding :o
:chuckle: good one, however that brings up a valid point, the way the law is being interpreted today I could be subject to my door being taken down in the night while I sleep. Just because police "think" a bad guy is in my house. Actually my guests are in cabins, but the police may not know that, so I lose two doors and my rights are violated unnecessarily. But in todays world that is OK because it benefits police, something is seriously wrong here. Police need to knock first at the home of someone who has done nothing wrong, if you are afraid to knock first then don't become a cop. :twocents:
Post by: bearpaw on June 30, 2013, 09:49:22 AM
Post by: Huntboy on June 30, 2013, 10:46:02 AM
For the record, I am not a cop hater, I have lots of good friends who are cops of all sorts, I just don't agree with the loss of rights that is occurring in this country.
:yeah:
Post by: Crunchy on June 30, 2013, 10:49:52 AM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on June 30, 2013, 12:02:02 PM
The article said the no knock warrant was approved solely on the basis that he had an ak47. Drug search as his son was selling. There have been more than one instances where a it was the wrong house and the home owner was shot trying to protect himself from 'strangers' that broke down his door.:yeah:
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
But not as many as you may think:
in ALL of the USA, according to the CATO Institute there were by the years this many deaths from police raids on the wrong homes:
2011 2
2010 2
2009 0
2008 2
2007 0
2006 1
None would be in a perfict world, but this ain't bad.
How you look at those numbers being acceptable depends on whether it was your family or friends that were the statistic. :twocents:
Post by: JLS on June 30, 2013, 01:28:42 PM
Thank you for illustrating my point so well, it's all about the police today, peoples rights no longer matter.
Absolute nonsense. It is so much harder for police to do searches nowadays, almost everything requires a warrant. A warrant isn't based on "thinking something", it's still based on PC being established. Use of force is much more regulated. Officer conduct is more closely scrutinized. All of these are good things. But for you to say it's all about the police nowadays? Ask a cop if the job has changed much in the last 10 to 20 years and I can tell you the answer you'll get.
So when Spokane PD does a SWAT raid on the Hell's Angels clubhouse, should they knock first :rolleyes: You volunteering to run point position?
Post by: bearpaw on June 30, 2013, 01:58:16 PM
Thank you for illustrating my point so well, it's all about the police today, peoples rights no longer matter.
Absolute nonsense. It is so much harder for police to do searches nowadays, almost everything requires a warrant. A warrant isn't based on "thinking something", it's still based on PC being established. Use of force is much more regulated. Officer conduct is more closely scrutinized. All of these are good things. But for you to say it's all about the police nowadays? Ask a cop if the job has changed much in the last 10 to 20 years and I can tell you the answer you'll get.
So when Spokane PD does a SWAT raid on the Hell's Angels clubhouse, should they knock first :rolleyes: You volunteering to run point position?
I think there is quite a difference between knocking down the door of known criminals and the door of a law abiding citizen just because "you think = probable cause" there may be something illegal inside. The problem is that mistakes are made and there should be zero tolerance especially when it involves innocent people's lives.
You won't like this, but I'm not sure I agree with knocking down the door of any clubhouse, probably depends on what you actually know for certain is inside.
I do hope you are correct that warrants are actually harder to get, everything in the news seems to point to an erosion of individual rights.
FYI - If police work was my bag I wouldn't be afraid to be your point man.
Post by: bobcat on June 30, 2013, 02:09:13 PM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on June 30, 2013, 04:02:34 PM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
Post by: JLS on June 30, 2013, 10:20:25 PM
I think there is quite a difference between knocking down the door of known criminals and the door of a law abiding citizen just because "you think = probable cause" there may be something illegal inside. The problem is that mistakes are made and there should be zero tolerance especially when it involves innocent people's lives.
You won't like this, but I'm not sure I agree with knocking down the door of any clubhouse, probably depends on what you actually know for certain is inside.
I do hope you are correct that warrants are actually harder to get, everything in the news seems to point to an erosion of individual rights.
First off, I don't know that warrants are harder to get. I meant to articulate that warrantless searches are nearly a thing of the past. Other than search incident to arrest, and officer is pretty much expected to get a warrant for about anything.
I don't see an erosion of civil rights, quite the opposite in fact. Officers can no longer search a residence based on owner consent. They are required by law to advise the homeowner that they are not legally required to consent to a search. Officers cannot search a vehicle incident to arrest anymore. If you are the passenger on a traffic stop, you don't even have to speak to the officer unless the stop is for a criminal action.
I could go on and on, but it's not necessary.
Probable cause for warrants has not changed. It is still a set of facts that would lead a reasonable person (NOT the officer) to believe that evidence of a crime is located at a specific location. It is not based on what the officer "thinks". Even if someone tells the officer the evidence is located somewhere, there has to be some corroborating evidence to back it up.
Probable cause is not a finite threshold. Obviously, judges are human and as such the standard for probable cause varies. Some judges require so much basis to the probable cause that you virtually have your case won before you ever get your warrant. The thing to remember though, is that a judge's determination of probable cause is guaranteed to be subjected to the scrutiny of the appellate courts and the media, and I don't know of many judges that like to see their warrants, rulings, and decisions overturned.
I agree fully that lives can be at stake. I don't like to see the wrong house hit, it's never a good thing for anybody. I really doubt that too many judges take it lightly when they sign a "no-knock" warrant.
Post by: JLS on June 30, 2013, 10:42:41 PM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
I doubt too many thugs have enough money to buy armored cars and Bearcats though.
Post by: NWBREW on June 30, 2013, 10:51:50 PM
The article said the no knock warrant was approved solely on the basis that he had an ak47. Drug search as his son was selling. There have been more than one instances where a it was the wrong house and the home owner was shot trying to protect himself from 'strangers' that broke down his door.
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
But not as many as you may think:
in ALL of the USA, according to the CATO Institute there were by the years this many deaths from police raids on the wrong homes:
2011 2
2010 2
2009 0
2008 2
2007 0
2006 1
None would be in a perfict world, but this ain't bad.
Yes...it is bad. I look at it as a two grade test. PASS or FAIL. 2 out of 6 ??????? That's bang, bang, bang.......OOPS, sorry wrong house 4 out of the 6 years.That is bad in my book.
Post by: JLS on June 30, 2013, 10:57:14 PM
You can hit the wrong house and still have a justified shooting, however difficult that is for some folks to wrap their heads around.
Post by: NWBREW on June 30, 2013, 11:02:44 PM
Hitting the wrong house is the fail, regardless of whether someone got shot. Whoever did the search warrant and provided the house info at the brief dropped the ball.
You can hit the wrong house and still have a justified shooting, however difficult that is for some folks to wrap their heads around.
The shooting may be justified but the entry leading up to the shooting would not be......just sayin. You are right though on the dropping of the ball.
Post by: crazysccrmd on June 30, 2013, 11:04:09 PM
The article said the no knock warrant was approved solely on the basis that he had an ak47. Drug search as his son was selling. There have been more than one instances where a it was the wrong house and the home owner was shot trying to protect himself from 'strangers' that broke down his door.
Even a knock warrant doesn't necessarily give a person much time to answer the door. I understand the need for such things, but worry that it can be too easily abused.
But not as many as you may think:
in ALL of the USA, according to the CATO Institute there were by the years this many deaths from police raids on the wrong homes:
2011 2
2010 2
2009 0
2008 2
2007 0
2006 1
None would be in a perfict world, but this ain't bad.
Yes...it is bad. I look at it as a two grade test. PASS or FAIL. 2 out of 6 ??????? That's bang, bang, bang.......OOPS, sorry wrong house 4 out of the 6 years.That is bad in my book.
That's some terrible statistics you're trying to use. You only take into account the fact that a wrong address was hit during a one year period regardless of how many raids were conducted. If it was just one, you'd be correct, fail. If there were 200 raids in the US during that year and one went wrong, that's a 99.5% success rate, which is a definite pass.
Post by: NWBREW on June 30, 2013, 11:09:02 PM
Post by: JLS on June 30, 2013, 11:11:53 PM
Hitting the wrong house is the fail, regardless of whether someone got shot. Whoever did the search warrant and provided the house info at the brief dropped the ball.
You can hit the wrong house and still have a justified shooting, however difficult that is for some folks to wrap their heads around.
The shooting may be justified but the entry leading up to the shooting would not be......just sayin. You are right though on the dropping of the ball.
I agree with you. The SWAT guys would have their butts covered so long as the court found that they were operating in good faith that they had the right residence. The folks that penned the warrant would have some explaining to do.
Unfortunately, you are talking humans in the mix. Therefore, 100% is probably never going to be consistently attainable.
Post by: NWBREW on June 30, 2013, 11:14:25 PM
Unfortunately, you are talking humans in the mix. Therefore, 100% is probably never going to be consistently attainable.
I hear ya.
Post by: christopheri on July 01, 2013, 10:38:28 AM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
I doubt too many thugs have enough money to buy armored cars and Bearcats though.
All the more reason that cops dont need them.
Post by: JLS on July 01, 2013, 11:12:36 AM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
I doubt too many thugs have enough money to buy armored cars and Bearcats though.
All the more reason that cops dont need them.
I can't even begin to fathom how stupid that comment is.
Post by: christopheri on July 01, 2013, 05:16:52 PM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
I doubt too many thugs have enough money to buy armored cars and Bearcats though.
All the more reason that cops dont need them.
I can't even begin to fathom how stupid that comment is.
But you cant back up calling me stupid? Please explain to me why the police need APCs or Bearcats or full automatic weapons for that matter... :dunno:
Post by: Crunchy on July 01, 2013, 05:46:18 PM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
I doubt too many thugs have enough money to buy armored cars and Bearcats though.
All the more reason that cops dont need them.
I can't even begin to fathom how stupid that comment is.
But you cant back up calling me stupid? Please explain to me why the police need APCs or Bearcats or full automatic weapons for that matter... :dunno:
If you cant figure that one out on your own, I dont think anyone explaining it to you is going to help
Post by: KFhunter on July 01, 2013, 05:47:01 PM
Nice pics in here, pretty good write up.
Post by: JLS on July 01, 2013, 06:09:01 PM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
I doubt too many thugs have enough money to buy armored cars and Bearcats though.
All the more reason that cops dont need them.
I can't even begin to fathom how stupid that comment is.
But you cant back up calling me stupid? Please explain to me why the police need APCs or Bearcats or full automatic weapons for that matter... :dunno:
I didn't call you stupid, I called your comment stupid. I'm not going to explain it, go ask your local Sheriff or police Chief why they have them.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on July 02, 2013, 07:29:18 AM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
JLS
Since you seem to be in the know...
What non-military entity would be training with beltfed automatic weapons at FT Lewis?
Nope
Go on Amazon and type in FBI shirt or gear and you would be surprised at whats available.
I doubt too many thugs have enough money to buy armored cars and Bearcats though.
All the more reason that cops dont need them.
I can't even begin to fathom how stupid that comment is.
But you cant back up calling me stupid? Please explain to me why the police need APCs or Bearcats or full automatic weapons for that matter... :dunno:
I didn't call you stupid, I called your comment stupid. I'm not going to explain it, go ask your local Sheriff or police Chief why they have them.
Post by: JLS on July 02, 2013, 10:04:46 PM
I can't speak to this as fact, but I highly doubt ANY LE agencies have a belt fed gun. My guess is that a local SWAT team was training out there, and happened to be in the right place at the right time and got to do some "cross training" 8)
Personally, for law enforcement situations, I think that fully automatic weapons are highly overrated. My patrol rifle is a semi, even though I could get an full auto. If I have to spray and pray for any unforseen reason, I can empty a 30 round mag pretty fast with it on semi.
Post by: NWHydroprint on July 03, 2013, 07:42:52 AM
If a person is shot under these circumstances all people present and involved should be held accountable for murder and manslaughter. Anyone else would be charge even if you said sorry wrong person.
Post by: Hermannr on July 03, 2013, 01:49:35 PM
I don't think a lot of folks really understand a "no knock" raid. It's not like SWAT is running all through the house in such a manner that no one knows who it is.
I don't know if the small number that went bad, they had trouble breaching the entry, but once the flash bangs go off and they cross the threshold of the entry every single one of them is yelling "police". Loudly. Multiple times.
They don't kick the door in and clear the house without announcing their authority.
Sorry, they will have to identify themselves and their reason for being there better than that before they are considered a home invader in this house.
Might want to read this ruling from years ago. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bad%20elk%20v.%20united%20states&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.cornell.edu%2Fsupremecourt%2Ftext%2F177%2F529&ei=LY7UUe3rIaPiiAK1o4HIBg&usg=AFQjCNEvGedHMRi_OA5ds99o5jcWPMUk7Q&bvm=bv.48705608,d.cGE (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bad%20elk%20v.%20united%20states&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.cornell.edu%2Fsupremecourt%2Ftext%2F177%2F529&ei=LY7UUe3rIaPiiAK1o4HIBg&usg=AFQjCNEvGedHMRi_OA5ds99o5jcWPMUk7Q&bvm=bv.48705608,d.cGE)
Post by: JLS on July 03, 2013, 02:20:36 PM
I don't think a lot of folks really understand a "no knock" raid. It's not like SWAT is running all through the house in such a manner that no one knows who it is.
I don't know if the small number that went bad, they had trouble breaching the entry, but once the flash bangs go off and they cross the threshold of the entry every single one of them is yelling "police". Loudly. Multiple times.
They don't kick the door in and clear the house without announcing their authority.
Sorry, they will have to identify themselves and their reason for being there better than that before they are considered a home invader in this house.
Might want to read this ruling from years ago. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bad%20elk%20v.%20united%20states&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.cornell.edu%2Fsupremecourt%2Ftext%2F177%2F529&ei=LY7UUe3rIaPiiAK1o4HIBg&usg=AFQjCNEvGedHMRi_OA5ds99o5jcWPMUk7Q&bvm=bv.48705608,d.cGE (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bad%20elk%20v.%20united%20states&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.cornell.edu%2Fsupremecourt%2Ftext%2F177%2F529&ei=LY7UUe3rIaPiiAK1o4HIBg&usg=AFQjCNEvGedHMRi_OA5ds99o5jcWPMUk7Q&bvm=bv.48705608,d.cGE)
Can you please explain to me what relevance this case has to the statement I made?
Post by: Johnb317 on July 04, 2013, 05:41:18 PM
Don't know about you guys, but if I'm asleep and someone breaks down my door I'm not necessarily hearing/comprehending what's going on, and if they threw in a flash bang the only thing I'm hearing is ringing in my ears!!
I pay my taxes, bills, vote, and help others in need. I also support the police and understand theirs is a difficult job. I also have a close friend back east who helps train swat teams. That said, if they can take the time to get a no knock warrant or any warrant for that matter they can take the time to triple check addresses and the like.
We don't get a pass if - oops we shot one duck over the limit, or I coulda sworn that bull had two points on the other side.
By now processes and procedures should be in place to prevent hitting the wrong house.
Imho
Post by: Hermannr on July 06, 2013, 10:48:31 PM
I'm just wondering- if you have some strangers outside your house in the middle of the night, and they say they are the police, are you supposed to believe them?
You didn't hear about the fake "DEA" raid on the wrong house in Marysville last year? http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98669-quot-DEA-quot-raids-wrong-Marysville-home (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98669-quot-DEA-quot-raids-wrong-Marysville-home)
Post by: ctwiggs1 on July 26, 2013, 03:03:05 PM
The case is that they didn't have a no-knock warrant but still conducted a no-knock raid.
At least that's what I've got out of the article.
Curtis
Post by: csaaphill on July 27, 2013, 06:31:28 PM
So if I'm in bed tonight and experience a no knock raid I should feel good about it, hope nobody gets trigger happy when I cover my eyes from the bright lights. Just sayin....Those have deaths more than what people think.
i've read where the guy not knowing or hearing they were the police got shot while reaching for his gun.
So ya guess its good when its not you.
From what I'm eading gun confiscation coming a lot sooner than what people realize. Just in a different form. snitch your neighbor get a scary assault rifle off the streets. <:tup:
saracasm off>
I aggree bear seems like people are willing to give up liberty far too much latley. Kind of scary if you think about it.