Post by: yorketransport on July 21, 2013, 10:47:01 AM
I assume that it's pretty standard to have a contract with the breeder regarding basic care and training. There is also clause that the breeder retains breeding rights to all male dogs with some limitations on spay/neuter. This isn't a big issue to me because I would rather have a female. Is it normal for a breeder to ask that the dog remain un-altered though?
There is a guarantee for the heath of the dog and that they will be free of hereditary defects before the age of 30 months. Is 30 months long enough for the defects to start to show up? This makes me feel pretty confident, but I'm curious if this is pretty typical of reputable breeders.
I suppose the last real question I have is how far will you go drive to pick up your dog? Twin Falls Idaho isn't exactly down the road from Yelm! :chuckle: Would you have your dog shipped, or just make the drive? This is actually the biggest concern I have at this point.
Andrew
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 21, 2013, 10:52:51 AM
What are the resolutions if the animal has hereditary defects? It's one thing to say it, but how is it remedied? Do you give it back? Get your money back? Those are really your only two options.
For me, the other conditions seem pretty onerous. I wouldn't want anyone else telling me what I could or could not do with my dog.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 21, 2013, 11:04:20 AM
Post by: Forks on July 21, 2013, 11:17:51 AM
Post by: buckfvr on July 21, 2013, 11:52:31 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on July 21, 2013, 12:40:45 PM
I would not buy from a breeder who was telling me what I had to do with the dog after I paid my money.
Like have to feed it this or that, and weather to spay or nueter unless I wanted too.
When I bought my lab I had no interst in breeding so no problem getting her spayed.
Make a list of what you intend to do with the dog and what your basic requirements are. Some breeder contracts are from another planet.
I too have been told breeder contracts cannot be enforced, but for me if I make a agreement I stick to it.
Here is the thread I started when I looking for my lab pup. It might give you some ideas.
Good luck
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,101124.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,101124.0.html)
Post by: Don Fischer on July 21, 2013, 03:33:01 PM
Post by: Johnb317 on July 21, 2013, 04:03:20 PM
Fantastic bird dog and companion.
I would want to see the breeders setup, and the pedigree of the dogs before signing anything.
Post by: AspenBud on July 21, 2013, 05:29:14 PM
It's an attractive option for some breeders since it means keeping fewer dogs in their kennel and in counties with stricter laws surrounding the number of dogs you can keep in your kennel that can be a big deal.
If you don't like it, don't buy a dog from them that has that clause attached to it.
Post by: turkeyfeather on July 21, 2013, 05:40:37 PM
Post by: yorketransport on July 21, 2013, 09:28:35 PM
Here's a little more info. I've met the sire of the litter and his owner (Carol Ptak). She is very familiar with both the breeder and the dam of the litter. I have a 10 generation pedigree for both the sire and dam as well. Both have clean histories with no links to the "hybrid" gene found in the WPG line. I'm pretty comfortable with the background of both the dogs and the breeder.
For the contract, I'm not really worried about it that much. The breeder retains co-ownership of the dog until he receives verification of spay/neuter. I have no intention of breeding (the last thing I want is a whole litter of dogs running around!) so I expect to have the dog spayed as soon as possible. If the dog tests positive for hereditary defects within 30 months, it will be replaced with a comparable pup. If something shows up during the initial vet checkup, a full refund will be given after the dog is returned (at the breeder's expense).
The whole contract thing was just a little weird to me. This is my first endeavor into the world of "high end" dogs, so I just wasn't sure if this was normal or not. I've talked to a few other breeders as well. Some make me a little nervous after looking over the pedigree of their litters. The other's don't have any litters planned until next year.
The whole process seems to be a matter of finding the right dog, the right breeder, and the right time. I will say that I'm very cautious about jumping into this. I usually am though when it involves opening up my wallet this much. :chuckle:
Andrew
Post by: Stilly bay on July 21, 2013, 10:20:10 PM
If the dog tests positive for hereditary defects within 30 months, it will be replaced with a comparable pup.
I would like to know: How many times in the history of dog contracts someone has actually returned a dog with defects for a dog from the same breeder in return for a new puppy?
This is very common language in puppy contracts, but a complete catch 22 that I find somewhat insulting.
Are you going to give away a dog that you have had for up to 30 months? a few months is more than enough time for most people to form an emotional attachment to a puppy.
What about all the money you have spent in food, training, and not to mention vet care to determine what problems this dog has?
what is going to become of your old dog? Its not breeding material. If the breeder was interested in rehoming it they would have just let you keep it in the first place. It will mostly likely be destroyed if you actually call the breeders bluff on this part of the contract and bring your faulty dog back.
why would you want a dog from the same breeder so that you could go through this all again?
It has always seemed much more fare to offer a new pup and let you keep the original one... but again why would you want another potential problem child?
I have seen some puppy contracts that border on the ridiculous as to the hoops they want potential owners to jump through. There is really no way to enforce these wishes, but at least they have a piece of paper with your signature on it IF you take them to court or IF they take you. Two big "IFs" there.
Post by: Shannon on July 21, 2013, 10:45:55 PM
Post by: JJD on July 22, 2013, 09:44:03 AM
I spend a good amount of time getting to know the breeder, checking references and health clearences. Regardless, it's a bit of a crap shoot, but it scews the odds in your favor if you check out the forementioned. I never get in any hurry in purchasing a pup, mormally about a 2 yr process.
Post by: Becky on July 22, 2013, 10:17:03 AM
-For the neuter/breeding rights, this more pertains to if they deem the pup as a good quality specimen. Usually the contract was double sided, saying if you were getting a "show quality" pup (for my instance) you're actually paying more and the breeder retains breeding rights. You had to keep the pup intact if this were the case, otherwise they'd sell you a different puppy - which comes to the flip side. If the pup was deemed "pet quality" which meant nothing was wrong with them at all, just wasn't what they were looking for in the show ring (maybe off colored coat) so they didn't want to breed back with that dog, then the contract stated you had 3 months to show proof of spay/neuter and you had to sign off that you wouldn't breed the pup.
-For the health guarantee, it's usually a guarantee that you get a different pup from another litter if something hereditary should arise. I never seen someone get their money back. I'd ask for more clarification on what they specifically have laid out for that part of the contract. That one is a slippery slope, most breeders that I found are not necessarily asking for the original dog back at that point but you do have to show vet proof etc. and work things out. It's hard because by that time it's YOUR dog, that you love, and if it's a breeder that is wanting to swap out for a better health one then what do you do :dunno:
-I'd drive/fly to Idaho myself, I'd go one state over in each direction for a pup. I've picked up pups flown in on a plane before though but that was from the east coast. They were fine.
Post by: runamuk on July 22, 2013, 10:31:46 AM
and yes these have become common and anyone who doesnt offer contracts and have testing etc is usually refered to derogatorily as a backyard breeder or puppymill two terms created by peta and hsus and bough hook line and sinker to divide dog owners breeders etc....
Post by: Becky on July 22, 2013, 10:48:14 AM
I do know someone who won in court over a contract violation, a show person who has hounds, so those scoffing at the contract's validity might need to rethink, marriage is a contract think on that a minute. Also I come from the show dog and purebred rescue side of the issue.
Oh yeah I forgot to say that these contracts are valid, absolutely, so don't scoff it off. Proving it might be a little different.. but a lot of the breeders do have lawyers who helped create the contract and are there to enforce it. They know what they're doing.
The contracts are not always one-size-fits-all either, so talk and get to know your breeders, let them get to know you, and talk about revising the contract too.
Post by: AspenBud on July 22, 2013, 10:50:39 AM
If the pup was deemed "pet quality" which meant nothing was wrong with them at all, just wasn't what they were looking for in the show ring (maybe off colored coat) so they didn't want to breed back with that dog, then the contract stated you had 3 months to show proof of spay/neuter and you had to sign off that you wouldn't breed the pup.
Such dogs are also often sold without papers, or the registration is withheld pending proof of spay/neuter.
Post by: Becky on July 22, 2013, 10:54:28 AM
If the pup was deemed "pet quality" which meant nothing was wrong with them at all, just wasn't what they were looking for in the show ring (maybe off colored coat) so they didn't want to breed back with that dog, then the contract stated you had 3 months to show proof of spay/neuter and you had to sign off that you wouldn't breed the pup.
Such dogs are also often sold without papers, or the registration is withheld pending proof of spay/neuter.
Oh yea for sure, forgot about that, they do have some slight leverage.
Post by: AspenBud on July 22, 2013, 10:55:34 AM
I do know someone who won in court over a contract violation, a show person who has hounds, so those scoffing at the contract's validity might need to rethink, marriage is a contract think on that a minute. Also I come from the show dog and purebred rescue side of the issue.
and yes these have become common and anyone who doesnt offer contracts and have testing etc is usually refered to derogatorily as a backyard breeder or puppymill two terms created by peta and hsus and bough hook line and sinker to divide dog owners breeders etc....
I know a breeder who has driven to a few different owners' houses and repossessed the dogs they sold because of a breech of contract. Some of the owners tried arguing with the legalities of it and their reply was "we can do this in a civil manner or we can see you in court, which shall it be?" They always get the dog.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 22, 2013, 11:08:43 AM
I do know someone who won in court over a contract violation, a show person who has hounds, so those scoffing at the contract's validity might need to rethink, marriage is a contract think on that a minute. Also I come from the show dog and purebred rescue side of the issue.
and yes these have become common and anyone who doesnt offer contracts and have testing etc is usually refered to derogatorily as a backyard breeder or puppymill two terms created by peta and hsus and bough hook line and sinker to divide dog owners breeders etc....
I know a breeder who has driven to a few different owners' houses and repossessed the dogs they sold because of a breech of contract. Some of the owners tried arguing with the legalities of it and their reply was "we can do this in a civil manner or we can see you in court, which shall it be?" They always get the dog.
Then those owners are idiots and cowards
Post by: runamuk on July 22, 2013, 11:16:44 AM
I do know someone who won in court over a contract violation, a show person who has hounds, so those scoffing at the contract's validity might need to rethink, marriage is a contract think on that a minute. Also I come from the show dog and purebred rescue side of the issue.
and yes these have become common and anyone who doesnt offer contracts and have testing etc is usually refered to derogatorily as a backyard breeder or puppymill two terms created by peta and hsus and bough hook line and sinker to divide dog owners breeders etc....
I know a breeder who has driven to a few different owners' houses and repossessed the dogs they sold because of a breech of contract. Some of the owners tried arguing with the legalities of it and their reply was "we can do this in a civil manner or we can see you in court, which shall it be?" They always get the dog.
Then those owners are idiots and cowards
so I can just not insure my truck even though it says I must in my contract after all its just a contract so not anything more than paper? I can be single again by simply burning my marriage license after all it is just paper? Employee contracts etc...all of these are just pieces of paper :dunno:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 22, 2013, 11:21:48 AM
Auto insurance is required by law, and if your wreck a car while you are still paying for it, you still owe the money.
All of these are much different than a contract written by a dog breeder for the sale of a dog.
Post by: Don Fischer on July 22, 2013, 11:22:35 AM
Post by: runamuk on July 22, 2013, 11:29:00 AM
Marraige is codefied by law, with a long history of legal recognition.not really you obviously are ill informed in the world of dogs...my truck cost less than many of the dogs these breeders sell. Same sorts of contracts in horses also have been taken to court and been won. Or are you a contract lawyer now? :dunno: in which case I will defer to your knowledge.
Auto insurance is required by law, and if your wreck a car while you are still paying for it, you still owe the money.
All of these are much different than a contract written by a dog breeder for the sale of a dog.
As for the original poster thee more unusual the breed often the more stipulations and things like breeding rights are retained due to the nature of a limited pool of good bloodlines.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 22, 2013, 11:39:14 AM
Dogs and the such are much different than cars. When you are buying a car, you do not have title until the car is paid off.
Post by: AspenBud on July 22, 2013, 12:19:20 PM
My point was if a breeder showed up at my house to reposes my dog based on their perception of their legal rights, I would not surrender the dog and would tell them to get a court order.
Dogs and the such are much different than cars. When you are buying a car, you do not have title until the car is paid off.
That's fine, but when you enter a contract that says the breeder co-owns the dog with you that usually means they have as much, or more, right to the dog for the term as you do.
So in a lot of ways it's a lot like the bank taking the car back and your title comparison is a good one since you generally don't have sole ownership of the dog until the breeder either gets their litter or signs it off to you entirely.
As I said, if people don't like that, don't attempt to buy pups from breeders that have such requirements.
Post by: rosscrazyelk on July 22, 2013, 12:24:04 PM
I have had the dog for 3 years now. Never heard anything
Post by: Stilly bay on July 22, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
I am not sure why they do these contracts anyway. I have never met a breeder who kept in contact after they sold the dog anyway.
If you were trialing and campaigning your dog, and it was winning titles left and right and worth breeding ( no offense) you would most likely be hearing from the breeder about exercising the breeding rights detailed in the contract you signed.
Its a good deal for the breeder because you do all the heavy lifting and they can benefit from it, might also be good deal for the owner because few people put that much time, money, and effort into a dog without planning to breed.
Post by: AspenBud on July 22, 2013, 01:08:12 PM
I am not sure why they do these contracts anyway. I have never met a breeder who kept in contact after they sold the dog anyway.
If you were trialing and campaigning your dog, and it was winning titles left and right and worth breeding ( no offense) you would most likely be hearing from the breeder about exercising the breeding rights detailed in the contract you signed.
Its a good deal for the breeder because you do all the heavy lifting and they can benefit from it, might also be good deal for the owner because few people put that much time, money, and effort into a dog without planning to breed.
...and dogs not worth breeding do no good for the gene pool. Hence spay and neuter stipulations. Though a lot of breeders will have that done ahead of sale anymore. Less trouble.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on July 22, 2013, 01:47:43 PM
Contracts are as good as toilet paper. Show dog folks are big on them and the only recourse you have on a contract is small claims court due to a value on the dog.
Simply put, if you have any intention of ever doing anything with the dog beyond being a pet/hunting home, DO NOT buy from a breeder with a lengthy contract. They'll have 10 different ways sideway to make the contract fall into the breeders favor and have control over you as the owner.
I'd simply find a better breeder who does not use or require contracts.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 22, 2013, 08:05:15 PM
My point was if a breeder showed up at my house to reposes my dog based on their perception of their legal rights, I would not surrender the dog and would tell them to get a court order.
Dogs and the such are much different than cars. When you are buying a car, you do not have title until the car is paid off.
That's fine, but when you enter a contract that says the breeder co-owns the dog with you that usually means they have as much, or more, right to the dog for the term as you do.
So in a lot of ways it's a lot like the bank taking the car back and your title comparison is a good one since you generally don't have sole ownership of the dog until the breeder either gets their litter or signs it off to you entirely.
As I said, if people don't like that, don't attempt to buy pups from breeders that have such requirements.
Say you have a dog, and the contract says do not neuter until less than 18 months. Lets say you are attached to the dog, and he thinks he is the littlest brother to your kids. Because the dog is un neutered, he is getting too big and too aggressive, and your wife, common sence and the vet councils getting him neutered.
Do you do it? Do you ask permission from the co-owners? Do you give them the kings ransom they demand? Or do you break up your happy little family?
Whats a small claims judge going to say? When you sell a dog, you give up consideration in that dog. Co-ownership doesn't exist.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 22, 2013, 08:55:49 PM
Post by: yorketransport on July 22, 2013, 09:00:05 PM
I don't really think that the contract is unreasonable, I've just never heard of it before. I guess I did sign a contract the last time I got an animal from the humane society. Something about not using it for food or scientific testing. And that was for a guinea pig! :chuckle:
I still haven't put a deposit down on the dog. I'm going to sleep on it for another night or two. This isn't really something to rush into. It is funny though that didn't spend this much time researching and debating the pros and cons of my wife before we got engaged. That only took 3 weeks. :chuckle:
Andrew
Post by: yorketransport on July 22, 2013, 09:01:07 PM
If the dog bites somebody, will the co-owner pay half?
No, he can pay the full amount. It was obviously his half that bit the other guy. My dog would never do that. ;)
Andrew
Post by: runamuk on July 22, 2013, 09:20:31 PM
and yes if there is aco owner on paper they can be held liable for damages in the event of a lawsuit resulting from a bite situation which is why breeders dont propose co ownership to just everyone.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 23, 2013, 07:36:57 AM
It is all dependent on the contract
Post by: AspenBud on July 23, 2013, 09:16:01 AM
My point was if a breeder showed up at my house to reposes my dog based on their perception of their legal rights, I would not surrender the dog and would tell them to get a court order.
Dogs and the such are much different than cars. When you are buying a car, you do not have title until the car is paid off.
That's fine, but when you enter a contract that says the breeder co-owns the dog with you that usually means they have as much, or more, right to the dog for the term as you do.
So in a lot of ways it's a lot like the bank taking the car back and your title comparison is a good one since you generally don't have sole ownership of the dog until the breeder either gets their litter or signs it off to you entirely.
As I said, if people don't like that, don't attempt to buy pups from breeders that have such requirements.
Say you have a dog, and the contract says do not neuter until less than 18 months. Lets say you are attached to the dog, and he thinks he is the littlest brother to your kids. Because the dog is un neutered, he is getting too big and too aggressive, and your wife, common sence and the vet councils getting him neutered.
Do you do it? Do you ask permission from the co-owners? Do you give them the kings ransom they demand? Or do you break up your happy little family?
Whats a small claims judge going to say? When you sell a dog, you give up consideration in that dog. Co-ownership doesn't exist.
Well I'd first say that neutering the dog isn't necessarily going to solve your problem. I'd also say that if you really like the dog and want to buy another from the breeder in the future, or from others who may know the breeder since they tend to be a close knit group, you might wish to reconsider your actions.
But run with your idea and see what a judge says some time if you choose to ever get into that arrangement.
Look, I'll never buy a dog under such a contract nor will I ever buy one under a contract that says I can't have the dog fixed at six months of age. But if a person buys a dog with such strings attached they darn well know what they're getting into so they have no reason cry about it or act like a child who wants to defy their parents. They signed the dotted line.
Post by: AspenBud on July 23, 2013, 09:39:49 AM
FYI, in case you don't understand, a $100,000.00 horse transaction is different than a $500 puppy transaction. One is likely to have a lawyer drawn contract, while the other is liable to have a DIY.
It is all dependent on the contract
That I agree with.
One thing to consider however is that the value of a dog can go up depending on the accomplishments it has behind it. It's a subjective number however.
I'm also not sure how destruction of property works in these cases but if a dog is found to be valued at more that $1500 you may also be opening yourself up to a class B felony if you have it fixed in violation of a co-own agreement.
Win or lose a breeder could make your life hell if they are angry enough.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 23, 2013, 10:18:15 AM
Quote
Abuse and neglect clause- For the life of this dog, Co-owner will not abuse or neglect the care of this pug. At any time the Breeder believes this dog is abused or neglected she has the right to reposes’ the pug and co-owner agrees to not seek legal damages against breeder or cause the breeder legal expenses
This says that the breeder could go to your house and reposes your dog based on what they "think". What do they believe abuse is? Maybe they think feeding the dog raw select rib roasts as opposed to raw prime rib is abuse. And the owner is prohibited from contesting this, because the owner cannot cause the breeder legal expenses, which could include gas or bus fare to get to court.
Post by: MadMooner on July 23, 2013, 02:08:37 PM
I'd only buy fom a hunting kennel and I'd suspect you'd miss 99% of the wackadoodle folks out there by doing such.
I drove to Wieser, ID to pick up my pup. It was a fun drive. Left work early on a Friday and drove to Tri-Cities. Motel, meal, and a few beers. Picked up my pup early Sat and headed home.
Also gotta believe Shannon is right about costs. Unless you are rockin' a Prius or Civic or some such, $4 gas gets spendy!
Looking forward to pics!
Post by: JLS on July 23, 2013, 02:15:09 PM
I'd only buy fom a hunting kennel and I'd suspect you'd miss 99% of the wackadoodle folks out there by doing such.
Winner winner Chikn Dinner!
When I was choosing a kennel I looked for references from hunters. I looked for photos of dead ducks and chukars, not ribbons. Yes, field trial ability is a valuable rating, but in the end I am buying a hunting dog. When I was talking to the breeder, I was a lot more interested in hearing about how many ducks the dam retrieved as a one year old from the Columbia in the wintertime than how well she scored in trials.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 23, 2013, 05:51:40 PM
...and dogs not worth breeding do no good for the gene pool
Dogs not worth breeding may actually help the breeds gene pool, but may not help the gene pool that breeders like.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on July 24, 2013, 07:53:33 AM
Small claims court = no lawyers. No lawyers = he said, she said and a contract a judge will NOT read because it IS NOT a legal document. They'll look at a bill of sale and that is about it. The judge isn't going to rule that a breeder has to give money back because a contract said "hips guaranteed". That will not happen. That would have to be a guarantee drafted by a lawyer with a million terms and conditions.
A contract is only to write down some promises the breeder makes and outline what they will do IF something happens.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 24, 2013, 08:18:48 AM
So it comes down to the bill of sale, which says the breeder sells the dog for a sum to the new owner.
The end, good bye Mr Breeder, don't call again?
Post by: AspenBud on July 24, 2013, 09:24:58 AM
...and dogs not worth breeding do no good for the gene pool
Dogs not worth breeding may actually help the breeds gene pool, but may not help the gene pool that breeders like.
For some dogs that has proven true, though not in the way you're implying. More than one field trial dog has been sold off, done things the breeder didn't think it could, and then got bought back by the breeder for a great deal more than it sold for as a pup or got bred to one of the breeder's other dogs. That's not unheard of at all.
You're problem however comes when the dog is sold on a limited registration or with no papers at all and you think your dog is something special but the breeder sees nothing in it they want.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 24, 2013, 09:34:01 AM
He loves either me or the beef jerky
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 24, 2013, 10:57:34 AM
I'm also not sure how destruction of property works in these cases but if a dog is found to be valued at more that $1500 you may also be opening yourself up to a class B felony if you have it fixed in violation of a co-own agreement.
And what prosecutor in the world would want to try a case of felonious neutering?
Post by: AspenBud on July 24, 2013, 12:38:40 PM
I'm also not sure how destruction of property works in these cases but if a dog is found to be valued at more that $1500 you may also be opening yourself up to a class B felony if you have it fixed in violation of a co-own agreement.
And what prosecutor in the world would want to try a case of felonious neutering?
I would hope none, but then on the other hand what kind of court finds McDonald's guilty of negligence when an old lady spills hot coffee in her lap or for that matter even hears the case? :chuckle: :bash: