New dog contract?

[Happy Gilmore]

mostly show breeders push contracts. Contracts have no weight in court and the AKC DOES NOT EVER make any changes on ownership of a dog without a court directive. Courts WILL NOT give AKC directive to change ownership issues.

Contracts are as good as toilet paper. Show dog folks are big on them and the only recourse you have on a contract is small claims court due to a value on the dog.

Simply put, if you have any intention of ever doing anything with the dog beyond being a pet/hunting home, DO NOT buy from a breeder with a lengthy contract. They'll have 10 different ways sideway to make the contract fall into the breeders favor and have control over you as the owner.

I'd simply find a better breeder who does not use or require contracts.

[Knocker of rocks]

My point was if a breeder showed up at my house to reposes  my dog based on their perception of their legal rights, I would not surrender the dog and would tell them to get a court order.

Dogs and the such are much different than cars.  When you are buying a car, you do not have title until the car is paid off.

That's fine, but when you enter a contract that says the breeder co-owns the dog with you that usually means they have as much, or more, right to the dog for the term as you do.

So in a lot of ways it's a lot like the bank taking the car back and your title comparison is a good one since you generally don't have sole ownership of the dog until the breeder either gets their litter or signs it off to you entirely.

As I said, if people don't like that, don't attempt to buy pups from breeders that have such requirements.

Say you have a dog, and the contract says do not neuter until less than 18 months.  Lets say you are attached to the dog, and he thinks he is the littlest brother to your kids.  Because the dog is un neutered, he is getting too big and too aggressive, and your wife, common sence and the vet councils getting him neutered.

Do you do it?  Do you ask permission from the co-owners?  Do you give them the kings ransom they demand?  Or do you break up your happy little family?

Whats a small claims judge going to say?  When you sell a dog, you give up consideration in that dog.  Co-ownership doesn't exist.

[Knocker of rocks]

If the dog bites somebody, will the co-owner pay half?

[yorketransport]

I'm honestly not worried about the co-ownership of an unaltered dog. Every animal in my house goes under the knife as soon as it's old enough. The last thing I want is to have every stray dog within a mile of my house coming over because my dog is in heat. Likewise, I don't want to worry about my male dog running off to visit with the lab/pitbull/bull mastiff mix down the road. That would be the ugliest dog ever! 

I don't really think that the contract is unreasonable, I've just never heard of it before. I guess I did sign a contract the last time I got an animal from the humane society. Something about not using it for food or scientific testing. And that was for a guinea pig!

I still haven't put a deposit down on the dog. I'm going to sleep on it for another night or two. This isn't really something to rush into. It is funny though that didn't spend this much time researching and debating the pros and cons of my wife before we got engaged. That only took 3 weeks. 

Andrew

[yorketransport]

If the dog bites somebody, will the co-owner pay half?

No, he can pay the full amount. It was obviously his half that bit the other guy. My dog would never do that.

Andrew

[runamuk]

co ownership does exist but thats ok...listen to knocker he is obviously well versed in this dont listen to people who have seen this for years in 100k horse transactions and 1000 dog transactions...

and yes if there is aco owner on paper they can be held liable for damages in the event of a lawsuit resulting from a bite situation which is why breeders dont propose co ownership to just everyone.

[Knocker of rocks]

FYI, in case you don't understand, a $100,000.00 horse transaction is different than a $500 puppy transaction.  One is likely to have a lawyer drawn contract, while the other is liable to have a DIY.

It is all dependent on the contract

[AspenBud]

My point was if a breeder showed up at my house to reposes  my dog based on their perception of their legal rights, I would not surrender the dog and would tell them to get a court order.

Dogs and the such are much different than cars.  When you are buying a car, you do not have title until the car is paid off.

That's fine, but when you enter a contract that says the breeder co-owns the dog with you that usually means they have as much, or more, right to the dog for the term as you do.

So in a lot of ways it's a lot like the bank taking the car back and your title comparison is a good one since you generally don't have sole ownership of the dog until the breeder either gets their litter or signs it off to you entirely.

As I said, if people don't like that, don't attempt to buy pups from breeders that have such requirements.

Say you have a dog, and the contract says do not neuter until less than 18 months.  Lets say you are attached to the dog, and he thinks he is the littlest brother to your kids.  Because the dog is un neutered, he is getting too big and too aggressive, and your wife, common sence and the vet councils getting him neutered.

Do you do it?  Do you ask permission from the co-owners?  Do you give them the kings ransom they demand?  Or do you break up your happy little family?

Whats a small claims judge going to say?  When you sell a dog, you give up consideration in that dog.  Co-ownership doesn't exist.

Well I'd first say that neutering the dog isn't necessarily going to solve your problem. I'd also say that if you really like the dog and want to buy another from the breeder in the future, or from others who may know the breeder since they tend to be a close knit group, you might wish to reconsider your actions.

But run with your idea and see what a judge says some time if you choose to ever get into that arrangement.

Look, I'll never buy a dog under such a contract nor will I ever buy one under a contract that says I can't have the dog fixed at six months of age. But if a person buys a dog with such strings attached they darn well know what they're getting into so they have no reason cry about it or act like a child who wants to defy their parents. They signed the dotted line.

[AspenBud]

FYI, in case you don't understand, a $100,000.00 horse transaction is different than a $500 puppy transaction.  One is likely to have a lawyer drawn contract, while the other is liable to have a DIY.

It is all dependent on the contract

That I agree with.

One thing to consider however is that the value of a dog can go up depending on the accomplishments it has behind it. It's a subjective number however.

I'm also not sure how destruction of property works in these cases but if a dog is found to be valued at more that $1500 you may also be opening yourself up to a class B felony if you have it fixed in violation of a co-own agreement.

Win or lose a breeder could make your life hell if they are angry enough.

[Knocker of rocks]

Here is a generic clause that is unenforceable

Abuse and neglect clause- For the life of this dog, Co-owner will not abuse or neglect the care of this pug. At any time the Breeder believes this dog is abused or neglected she has the right to reposes’ the pug and co-owner agrees to not seek legal damages against breeder or cause the breeder legal expenses

This says that the breeder could go to your house and reposes your dog based on what they "think".  What do they believe abuse is?  Maybe they think feeding the dog raw select  rib roasts as opposed to raw prime rib is abuse.  And the owner is prohibited from contesting this, because the owner cannot cause the breeder legal expenses, which could include gas or bus fare to get to court.

[MadMooner]

This thread is exhibit one in why you need to be sure about who you buy your dog from! People are fuggin' wacky! If you plan on spaying anyway, most contracts are a moot point.

I'd only buy fom a hunting kennel and I'd suspect you'd miss 99% of the wackadoodle folks out there by doing such. 

I drove to Wieser, ID to pick up my pup. It was a fun drive. Left work early on a Friday and drove to Tri-Cities. Motel, meal, and a few beers.  Picked up my pup early Sat and headed home.

Also gotta believe Shannon is right about costs. Unless you are rockin' a Prius or Civic or some such, $4 gas gets spendy!

Looking forward to pics!

[JLS]

I'd only buy fom a hunting kennel and I'd suspect you'd miss 99% of the wackadoodle folks out there by doing such. 

Winner winner Chikn Dinner!

When I was choosing a kennel I looked for references from hunters.  I looked for photos of dead ducks and chukars, not ribbons.  Yes, field trial ability is a valuable rating, but in the end I am buying a hunting dog.  When I was talking to the breeder, I was a lot more interested in hearing about how many ducks the dam retrieved as a one year old from the Columbia in the wintertime than how well she scored in trials.

[Knocker of rocks]

...and dogs not worth breeding do no good for the gene pool

Dogs not worth breeding may actually help the breeds gene pool, but may not help the gene pool that breeders like.

[Happy Gilmore]

You won't get any court orders on dog contracts. Just isn't going to happen. The closest thing that a judge can cite is livestock laws in Washington State and they do not apply to pets very well for making rulings. They will not look at the minutia of an idiot who "thinks" they know how to write a legal contract because they read it on some breeders webpage and put it on their own co-ownership contract. There is zero "legal" to a puppy contract in this state.

Small claims court = no lawyers. No lawyers = he said, she said and a contract a judge will NOT read because it IS NOT a legal document. They'll look at a bill of sale and that is about it. The judge isn't going to rule that a breeder has to give money back because a contract said "hips guaranteed". That will not happen. That would have to be a guarantee drafted by a lawyer with a million terms and conditions.

A contract is only to write down some promises the breeder makes and outline what they will do IF something happens.

[Knocker of rocks]

So your saying the new car defense won't hold up?  Nor the old legal precedence of "I knew somebody"?

So it comes down to the bill of sale, which says the breeder sells the dog for a sum to the new owner.

The end, good bye Mr Breeder, don't call again?